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Featured Do I Have To Go To Church?

Discussion in 'The Church Forum' started by TheAngelBand, Jan 29, 2020.

  1. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    REALLY??? YOU are led by the Spirit of God into the Truth? The Reformers and the men who disagree with the Reformers thought the same thing. ;)

    BTW....Romans 8:14 (not 8:4) has NOTHING to do with each individual person being led into the Truth.

    There are some things in Scripture that are hard to understand of which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction.
     
  2. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.

    Sooooo let me get this straight. When you interpret Scripture you know you have been guided to the Truth in your interpretation? How do you know you have come to the Truth? WHO do you rely on for that?

    I answered your question. Would you like to TRY and answer mine???

    Is the church ever wrong in what it teaches?

    Curious Mary
     
  3. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    I'm asking about you + God.

    Not you + God + another person (which you keep referring to).
    Not you all by yourself (your straw man argument).

    You + God.
     
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  4. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    And neither do you believe you were unnecessarily insulting to those with whom you have conversed on this forum.

    I and others have already answered this question for you. Why do you keep repeating it? Mine has not changed on this point since the last time I answered it.
    Clearly perhaps to you, but not to me, and I believe also not clearly to God. I don't try to be on the side on any man, be he one of those Reformers or the Catholic priest that I always remember as an honest man of God during my own Catholic youth. Rather I always strive to be on the Lord's side. To get there and to stay there requires submission (surrender)!

    "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." James 4:7
    So why is it that you expect from me what you are unwilling to do yourself? Remember also the words of Solomon!
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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  5. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    My dear Mary choosing God rather than mammon is what everyone of us needs to do all of the time... yet you say it has nothing to with choosing what we believe. What we believe should always be what He directs us to believe. Should we not always be hearing and obeying His voice? The forbidden personal interpretation of scripture is when a person decides the meaning without communicating with God. One who does communicate with God and then hearing what God says goes that way is on the right pathway no matter what anyone else may say.

    When it comes to Matt 18:17, you have apparently already forgotten our discussion a while back about those witnesses and the example I presented then with regard to Ahab, Jezebel and Naboth [I Kings 21]. Of course you did not understand or agree with where I was on that, but that is where I am. Calling me wrong does not change the truth any more than it would if I were to call you wrong, would it?
     
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  6. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Men have been misunderstanding God or neglecting to listen to Him or simply blindly going their own way since the beginning of men. Do you suppose that the those holding positions in the CC are different or better?

    You can doubt that I am ever led by the Spirit of God, but what God knows is the what matters. That applies to each person without regard which church group he has, or does not have, an affiliation. It applies to you & it applies to me and everyone else. God is still looking at our hearts no matter is coming out of our mouths.

    Thank you for catching my erroneous verse number. Your conclusion is still is error as I see it.

    Nothing is too hard for God! This is why we are to communicate with Him for He is the only one we can always trust directly rightly!
     
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  7. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Yup....I get it what you are asking. And I have answered. However you have not answered my questions.....:( You like to ask questions but not answer them.

    I have a relationship with God....Just like you. HOWEVER that has NOTHING to do with interpreting Scripture. Scripture does NOT give me the authority to properly interpret Scripture. Does Scripture give YOU the authority to properly interpret Scripture?????

    Who do YOU rely on to PROPERLY interpret Scripture?
     
  8. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. According to you Scripture is left up to each persons interpretation. Well, Scripture tells you your wrong.

    The answer I have received from you and others is that each individual member of the church is The Church. CLEARLY that can not be the case since each individual member can NOT be the pillar and foundation of truth and each individual person can NOT fulfill Matthew 18:17 soooooo there are two passages that destroy your theory.

    Thank you for your time
     
  9. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    :):D
     
  10. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Not at all: you either invite someone else into the room, or pretend that God isn't in the room at all and that it's all about you.

    Please, tell me about you+God in the room.
    Do you talk to God? Or ignore Him?
    Do you have a relationship with your Savior?

    I cannot address your questions until this is properly covered, so you must answer first.
     
  11. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    It's not a case of "us versus them" in attempting to understand truth and where we find it. It's about looking to scripture and seeing how God defines it. Thus, when we see 'Church' in the bible, we seek to understand how it is defined there. As you say, it's very easy to say "i'm right and you're wrong", and this is one of the reasons holding fast to the Word of God is so important. It gives us a constant to go back to. It's very easy for me to say "the spirit tells me this is the truth" and for you to say "well the spirit tells me the opposite is the truth"...but if we have clear biblical text telling us that God clearly defines it as something else and we're both wrong, we must accept it!!
    Thus when we look at other 'sects', we weigh by scripture. If they do not hold true to the preponderance of it, then we must suppose they are not faithful.

    I'm.....not exactly sure I follow you're reasoning or use of scriptures here. Are you, perhaps, suggesting that as Christ's followers we must be 'found with the harlots' to NOT be considered one, and conversely should we be found 'in church' we are being found 'as one with the harlot'? I most certainly hope not, because such torturous applications of these verses allow me to hear the shrieks from here.

    Look, for me, it is quite simple: scripture clearly SHOWS Christ's followers gathering together in praise, prayer and worship...in encouragement of one another. There is no direct commands that we should NOT follow that example. Now...should there happen to be those in among the fellowship who are NOT truly saved....I would say that they fall rather neatly into the category of those Jesus spoke of...of the sick who need the physician. In other words, we don't sit idly by and sing with out heads in the clouds. We love those present, those who know Jesus and those who NEED to know Jesus. We start at home and we love outwards. And my friend, unless you can give me solid biblical evidence that God doesn't want that, that's how I'm gonna keep on seeing it.
     
  12. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I was referring to Protestant denominations in general. I sort of thought that should have been evident, considering I had just mentioned 'Protestant eccesiology'.
    Not sure why you would think I would need to cheat or get 'pious' to tell you that...but, there you go.

    "Love feasts"? :D Oh man...sorry, but you're barking up the wrong Protestant! Solid, country Baptist here! Not sure what that might mean in the US, but here in AU that means I'm about as far from the happy clappy crowd as you can get. It means during worship I might be doing moshpits, hi-fives in my head, but on the outside I've got my 'social face' on. We don't share our emotions real well, us country Baptists. We can talk about it somewhat, we can share and pray and sing and push towards good outcomes for our community....and by golly we can pull together...but we don't. get. emotional. I wish we would a little more.

    But I think the thing I was objecting to/pointing out before was...you were making it sound like 'church' was a country club we had a choice to join. We also had a choice who we accepted and who we turned away, so that only the 'best' or our preferred would end up in our little clique. The real Church is not like that at all. God picks and chooses from all walks of life, from every side of the train track, from every wage bracket, nationality...you name it. We don't get to pick, he does. It's our common love of Christ that pulls us together and makes us family. And, well, family is not always perfectly harmonious, but still, nothing changes blood. And its the same in our case, only the blood that binds us together is Christ's.

    I don't necessarily disagree with you that a good number of denominations have seriously lost the plot in terms of the whole 'seeker friendly' sort of thing. They began down a path in order to draw people, young people in particular in and it didn't do them any long term favors. It just lead to theological black holes and pop-christianity which is not sort of christianity at all.
    The mistake in that, however, is mixing the majority of Church denominations in among them. There are still many, many, genuine, down to earth churches just living life, loving God and trying to face the culture as Christ would have them.

    As in, "I'll fly away"? That depends. I'm not a Rapture nut, if that's what you're thinking. I most certainly do believe in 1) the return of Christ, 2) eternal life afterwards. But I take those two events as a one/two sort of punch and don't expect it has to happen at any sort of time. I'd love for it to happen soon...hey, who wouldn't? But I don't think scripture gives us any sort of concrete signs to watch...or the nightly news to dissect.

    Okay, a few things here....first...you're 'at peace with the perfection of the world right now"?
    Does that peace extend to the people dying in Syria? To the millions being killed in utero? To the young girls being snatched and raped in Africa? How can you be at peace with the 'perfection' of the world when the world literally screams out? I am pleased for you if you, yourself have found a measure of peace, but as long as sin exists, we cannot say this world is perfect. It is not.
    Hmm, the 'we'...are you again asking after the 'we' from the beginning of this post, or are you now asking about my classification of what 'Christian' means. I suspect the later, and considering I've already answered the former, that's what I'll do.
    You wonder if I am speaking of an exclusive group when I speak of 'we', of 'Christian', of 'God's chosen'. And while I know you do not hold to scripture speaking unassailable truth, it is still scripture we must go for the answer... I trust you will place it's answers as more authoritative than mine anyway.


    And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. -John 1:14

    And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. -1 John 5:20

    Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. -Matthew 7:13–14

    Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. -John 14:6

    Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” -John 11:25–26


    What do we see in these verses? First, that the word of Christ is true, it is true because he not only came from God, he IS God and HE is eternal life to those IN him.
    We also see that, contrary to some beliefs, not all will be saved. 'Many' will take the wide, easy road to destruction, while 'few' will find the hard, narrow road that leads to life.
    And, finally, that Jesus IS the ONLY way to eternal life. All those who believe in him shall have eternal life, even though we die, still we shall not face destruction in hell.

    So...what's my point in all this? Yes, yes I am being exclusive. I'm being exclusive because the bible is being exclusive. If you have not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, you will not be saved. It's just that simple. Don't take it up with me, those would be God's rules...and considering he sacrificed his Son for us, I'm not sure we have the right to whine about it.
    So...Muslims? I'm not racist, if that's what you're wondering. There are plenty of Muslim brothers and sisters who have accepted Christ as their Savior. Did you know that the fastest growing Church at the moment is in Iran? How cool is that? Did you know one of the reasons? Dreams and visions. This guy in white with scared hands keeps showing up and telling them to follow him. And they are, in droves. Can't wait to meet them all!
     
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  13. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Well....ah...it's a little hard to remember what my fundamental beliefs were since my first day, as my folks would have started taking me there as soon as I was born. But I get your drift. And to be honest....I don't think any have really changed. I've gone through the maturity of several beliefs, where I had to actually dig into them and find out what they were, what they meant and if they were, in fact, biblical. I went through a phase where I WANTED to know all that, and not just assume because, hey, grown up in Church!
    I think the only real change I went through, doctrine wise, was in eschatology; went from sorta Dispensationalist to Amillennialist. That was a fun, convicting journey!
     
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  14. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ok well the reason i asked is i came from Prot Ecclesia and imo our forefathers are mostly Paul's wolves, so im not sure who you really meant. Seems like more of a Catholic thing? And cant Pagans even learn from their forefathers? Iow why the self-imposed limitation?
    i think those are nonetheless "love feasts" according to a Scriptural def, even though we deem that "worship" now, prolly bc we go bend the knee and do other englyshe "lord" type stuff there, pay the mortgage and all, whatever, but no actual "worship" according to the Scriptural def at all, at least that i can see? How often are widows and orphans regarded in those "services" iyo?
    yeh, gimme some of that red stew, for i am about to die! gotcha there, but
    ok, so not just Prots then, cool

    any Muslims in that Common Love thing, bac? I ask bc they are instructed by the Qur'an at least to follow Christ or be doomed, many times, several diff ways. And i notice their widows and orphans are regarded quite differently. But anyway theyre kind of "protestants" too, i think?
    brings to mind some quote from a Japanese guy along the lines of "everyone yearns for the end of the world..."

    so fwiw i wouldnt, not yearning for any ragnarok here
    nor "rapture" drawn from harpazo, pass on that one two
    well, might be a bit hard to get, sure, but imo everyone dies, and we all reap what we sow i guess, so i would say that while i sympathize with them, you and i will also be dying one day too, and our deaths will also be held up as "tragic" and "a loss" to those left, and crimes of the nature you infer are at least recognized as crimes now, rather than business as usual.

    Yes, entropy is unpleasant in the moment but no, it is not my business to peer in to the world's daily workings and lament them, but rather to leave the world? Not saying idc, but the world is better now by any measure you care to use, those included, so imo it becomes a matter of perception, is the glass half empty or half full?
    to your perception, maybe, but wadr that does not make it so; it merely makes it obvious where your heart is, if you will allow me. We live in a miracle, esp the two of us, and the world is a completely diff place than it was even 100 years ago, when many of those things, your complaints there, were considered completely acceptable? Or at least that nothing could be done about them? Personally i will fear no evil, and i will worry about my sins existing or not, and not so much about others, wadr to them.

    i say this bc i notice we read "the world is passing away" and think "Ragnarok" like you do rather than connecting that feeling to our kvetching about yesterday being better than today, although reminiscence and melancholy arent exactly the subjects here, i know. Sin exists, and the world is fine just like it is imo, the poor you will always have with you, yeh?

    So imo if you hate some sin enough, then bam go do something about it, thats how we got to here, right? Whats wrong with that, iyo?
    heck, i dont have to wonder, you are as much as saying right there that Yah will be respecting the classification of "Christian," right? "Christian good, evryone else, bad?"
    well, so you say, but Scripture does not say so, exactly, and imo for a very good reason. Jesus did not ask Why do you call Me good? No one is good but Yah for nothing, right? We are not told to worship a jealous Yah only for no reason, imo. I say this bc the next step there is to start "worshipping" and even praying to Jesus, iow admitting "Jesus" into your Pantheon, isnt that really whats going on there?
    Gehenna is right here on earth i guess, not too interested in any bad interpretations by Anglish scribes, to get to our concept of "hell" tbh. Plus im hearing "forever and ever" in your inferences of "eternal," which is "a space of time" after all, right

    see bc if one lives "forever" then they are an "immortal," which is im pretty sure your end goal and current belief? Unless im wrong? Thats really what its all about, right? You going up to heaven; after you have literally died?

    so imo i dunno about that, i dont yet know what i will become but as you say that you do, i can on ly suggest a search of "Mithraism and" and let the auto-completes be your guide, Naomi. And maybe have a drink first, and at least be sitting down, knowledge brings sorrow
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
  15. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    yes, i know

    so you say, but no, It is not, wadr
    go, and do likewise

    find out why the tax collectors and whores are beating you into the kingdom

    etc
    and boy do "we"have a ritual for that, or what?
    :)
    ya, im fam. Heil, baby
    ok well i wouldnt be writing that in stone just yet ok, John 18:14 Lexicon: Now Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jews that it was expedient for one man to die on behalf of the people. , and i dont think you will be Quoting any Scripture for that, as weird as that maybe seems right now. No, Yah mos def did not sacrifice His Son for us, I desire mercy, not sacrifice right
     
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  16. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ah, i guess you mean "converted," right, to our common form of Mithraism? Out of the fryin pan, inta th' far, imo
    interesting, gotta link?
    nice talking with you btw
    yeh, i know. Ok, i wish you the best ok, in your quest for immortality and etc
    imo there is no judgement for beliefs, after all
     
  17. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    even though you cant Quote that; no "Jesus, shuvu" anywhere, see
    Return to Me, and I will return to you
    is what we get when we go looking for that!
    after the def of "eternal" has been properly massaged into "forever," yeh? Even though any lexicon will clarify "eternity" as "a space of time; an age"

    do you know what this belief system really is, Naomi? bc wadr it is not Christianity ok
    doesnt mean Yah does not love you anyway though :)
     
  18. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    Should be called attending the gathering, the ekklesia, the assembly of believers, wherever that may be. :p
     
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  19. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    i might object to ecclesia for similar reasons as i do "church," or ppl saying they are "saved," but i guess that is a personal decision. If one wants to assume they are ekklesia then bam i guess, but i am going to hear "special snowflake" and run myself.

    i think Scripture calls what we do "love feasts," and in a quite tic...toungue in cheek manner, "why dont you eat at home?" and all that, but as the pov is not very self-congratulatory nor literal im pretty much keeping that one to myself lol. Imo The Gathering with all of its undertones might do nicely though, yeh :)
     
  20. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I'm really not sure how basing ones denomination on biblical doctrine rather than inherited tradition places them into the category of 'wolf' on that principle alone.
    And just because we choose to base our doctrines on scripture rather than tradition doesn't mean we don't learn from tradition or respect tradition. So, I wouldn't say that there are any self-imposed limitations. Sorry if you had some bad experiences. There are certainly some dodgy people out there trying to sell dodgy ideas. That's one of the strongest arguments for always bringing it back to the bible, which is God's word which does not change.

    So...in your understanding a service should only be about gathering together and discussing social justice issues? The problem I see with that is...that doesn't quite cover everything in scripture. In the bible we see the disciples and other believers gathering together in prayer, in song, in teaching, in the Lord's supper and in fellowship. It's not just about helping out those in need.
    So, for example, in our tiny, tiny church, which might not be a great example, but it's what we have. We gather on Sunday's for teaching, prayer, song, fellowship..praise. For the Lord's supper. But through the week we meet again, or network to organise for those in need, for programs that reach out to people in the community, stuff like that. We raise money for a group of kids we support and pray for regularly.
    And most Churches I've been to have the same sort of things going. And the reason they do is because or Lord requires it, and because we care. Any denomination or 'church' that just sits navel gazing is not reading it's bible properly.


    Have no idea what you're referring to with your Esau quote. Spell it out if it's important, ta.

    You're really interested in the Muslim angle, aren't you? Are you wondering if I'd as a Muslim person to kindly leave my Church if they didn't confess Christ?
    The answer is no. I'd be thrilled they came, because it showed interest. Of course, if they came in order to start preaching Mohammad, that would be something else, but again, there is zero reason for me to be either offended or rude...perhaps just an opportunity for conversation.
    The problem with your idea about the Qur'an telling them to 'follow Christ' or be doomed, is that the Christ the Qur'an speaks of is not the biblical Christ. The Qur'an has Jesus coming back at the 'end' with the Muslim's "Mahdi" and leading the Muslims to victory for Allah. And this is definitely not what scripture tells us. Jesus comes with no one. Jesus is God and when he comes he comes in his own power to bring his own justice/judgement on the world. Only those who have placed their faith in him will be saved. Sadly, most Muslims may acknowledge Jesus as a person who existed, but they don't have saving faith in him. As Christians we need to love them and attempt to have conversations with them about this.

    Here's a question for you then. Why do you think Paul refers to Christ's coming as our "blessed hope"?

    waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, - Titus 2:13–14

    If Christ is still with us now, as we know he is in Spirit, then why should we be looking for his 'appearing'? Why should it be our 'blessed hope'? And why should we be 'waiting' for it?

    Personally, I think it is impossible, and just a tad foolish to not see the affects of sin on this world and lament it. Death is, yes, inevitable, and as Christians we don't fear it. But it IS the enemy...it shouldn't be. And therefore it is wrong of me to shrug off as a natural consequence or just something that happens, when I see the number of abortions a year. Or the picture in the news of a Syrian father cradling his baby who froze to death....or all the other hideous and horrible things that happen in this world. As a Christian I need to look at it and acknowledge that THIS is the price of rebellion against God. And then long for, ache for, the time when sin will be no more.
     
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