Do Joseph Smith and Ellen White fir Bibal criteria of a true Prophet?

[Prayer Warrior]

Somebody undoubtedly would say the same thing about, Reformed, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Pentecostals, and about any other group we could name. Many or all of them may say they are being led by the Holy Spirit in spite diametrically opposed beliefs. Is your set of beliefs the best one? Why is that? Do any of them admit they may be in error in part? If not, why not?

Hello, Amadeus. Here’s the problem with what you are saying. All of the denominations you list hold to various aspects of Bible doctrine. Joseph Smith called The Book of Mormon “the most correct book on earth.” Some basic LDS doctrine is not supported by the Holy Bible and even clearly contradicts the Bible.

 

[Waiting on him]

Somebody undoubtedly would say the same thing about, Reformed, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Pentecostals, and about any other group we could name. Many or all of them may say they are being led by the Holy Spirit in spite diametrically opposed beliefs. Is your set of beliefs the best one? Why is that? Do any of them admit they may be in error in part? If not, why not?

Most claim absolution, which by the way in my opinion disqualifies.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Hello, Amadeus. Here’s the problem with what you are saying. All of the denominations you list hold to various aspects of Bible doctrine. Joseph Smith called The Book of Mormon “the most correct book on earth.” Some basic LDS doctrine is not supported by the Holy Bible and even clearly contradicts the Bible.

That is a matter of Interpretation.
I could say the same thing for various Protestant denominations.

 

[amadeus]

Hello, Amadeus. Here’s the problem with what you are saying. All of the denominations you list hold to various aspects of Bible doctrine. Joseph Smith called The Book of Mormon “the most correct book on earth.” Some basic LDS doctrine is not supported by the Holy Bible and even clearly contradicts the Bible.

When people read the Bible they do find verses within it that seemingly contradict each other. There are answers provided by various people as why this is so. God knows better than any of them. When they are in error are they better than Joseph Smith when he was in error?

Joseph Smith is long gone in spite of any errors or truth he may have personally espoused. I have read some of his writings, but I never met the man. I have never known his heart. I might guess or speculate as to where he really was with God, but I do not know!

The few Mormons I have known personally with only one exception appeared to me to be close to God. Why should I condemn someone who appears to be close to God? Because of your study? Would it not be wrong for me to do that even though you assure me you have it all right? As to the whole church [LDS] I would not condemn them any more than I would any of the Protestant churches or the Catholic Church just because their whole slate of beliefs differed from my own take on things. All men who have not yet overcome the world as did Jesus are still liars. That include the Mormons, the Catholics, the Protestants... and, yes, me!

I will stay as best I can on the Lord's as I am led. How is it that I am not led wrong at times? When I quench the Spirit, I am certainly led wrong. Should I then as one who has not yet overcome all the world, speak out against a group or person because they or he disagree with me? Lots of that going on here. I have done it too, but I really seek to follow the Lord in this as well. When I am in the Spirit I do. When I am not in the Spirit I go astray. Hopefully the instances of the latter are diminishing.

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

 

[amadeus]

Most claim absolution, which by the way in my opinion disqualifies.

Only when a person is hearing from God on every issue and obeying God on every issue, is the person always right. There may have been others, but the only one I know who has fills the bill exactly on this was Jesus.

I can and must decide for myself which way to turn or to stop or to go straight, but who am I or who is any one to make the call for another?

God has reasons, I believe, why some people are in each of these different groups/denominations/ churches/sects. The love of truth is what is always needed according to God, but too many people believe that you must know exactly what the truth is in order to love it. I do not believe that because no man knows exactly what the truth is. This is why we are live by faith rather than by knowledge:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

People who do not love the truth, in spite of their lack of a perfect knowledge of what it is, do come into delusion.

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thess 2:10-12

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Joseph Smith is long gone in spite of any errors or truth he may have personally espoused. I have read some of his writings, but I never met the man. I have never known his heart. I might guess or speculate as to where he really was with God, but I do not know!

WADR, what have I said about Joseph Smith's heart? I have restricted my comments about him, and Mormonism in general, to their unbiblical doctrine.

The few Mormons I have known personally with only one exception appeared to me to be close to God. Why should I condemn someone who appears to be close to God? Because of your study? Would it not be wrong for me to do that even though you assure me you have it all right? As to the whole church [LDS] I would not condemn them any more than I would any of the Protestant churches or the Catholic Church just because their whole slate of beliefs differed from my own take on things. All men who have not yet overcome the world as did Jesus are still liars. That include the Mormons, the Catholics, the Protestants... and, yes, me!

The issue here is not whether Mormons are nice people. The issue is unbiblical LDS doctrine. I don't condemn Mormons or anyone else. As I have already said many times, my motive for posting in this thread and other threads about Mormonism is to help those who are deceived or could become deceived.
.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

WADR, what have I said about Joseph Smith's heart? I have restricted my comments about him, and Mormonism in general, to their unbiblical doctrine.



The issue here is not whether Mormons are nice people. The issue is unbiblical LDS doctrine. I don't condemn Mormons or anyone else. As I have already said many times, my motive for posting in this thread and other threads about Mormonism is to help those who are deceived or could become deceived.
.

By.. old false claims that have been addressed a million times?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

By.. old false claims that have been addressed a million times?

No, by comparing The Book of Mormon (and other LDS scriptures) with the Bible.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

No, by comparing The Book of Mormon (and other LDS scriptures) with the Bible.

That would be a welcomed change of pace.

 

[amadeus]

WADR, what have I said about Joseph Smith's heart? I have restricted my comments about him, and Mormonism in general, to their unbiblical doctrine.

My point it that only by knowing the man's heart could we fairly and correctly judge him. I believe this is the case with anyone. If a person is at the moment is in error on one or more points, is he forever lost? Consider King David who certainly was a polygamist, which certainly as I read the Bible, OT and NT, was not God's Way according to Jesus. Yet David was called the apple of His eye and a man after His heart. When David commited adultery and murder under the law give to Moses the punishment for either offense was death. Yet God spared the man because God saw his heart. This is why believing something is unbiblical is not enough. It is why we cannot be the final judge. All we can do is follow the Lord ourselves one step at the time to the end of our own course.

The issue here is not whether Mormons are nice people. The issue is unbiblical LDS doctrine. I don't condemn Mormons or anyone else. As I have already said many times, my motive for posting in this thread and other threads about Mormonism is to help those who are deceived or could become deceived.

The issue is always the fruits that they bear. Is this not the way Jesus told us to recognize the false prophets? Would advise someone to steer clear of a person who bore a Mormon label but to embrace the one who bore a Protestant label even though you did not know either one personally? Would you not need to see some fruit first in order to even try to render a fair judgement?

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Matt 7:15-19

 

[Prayer Warrior]

No, by comparing The Book of Mormon (and other LDS scriptures) with the Bible.

That would be a welcomed change of pace.

Actually, I did this in my thread (What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor), but here it is again.


The following excerpt is from "Appendix 2" of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder (original formatting changed):

QUICK DOCTRINAL COMPARISON OF MORMONISM AND THE BIBLE

THE BIBLE TEACHES: The Church Consists of the Body of Believers • “Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us” (Rom.12:4 – 6). • “Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it” (Eph. 4:3 – 7). • Jesus said, “I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it” (Matt. 16:18). • Also see: Matt. 18:19 – 20; Mark 3:24 – 25; 1 Cor. 1:10 – 12; 12:11 – 14; Eph. 1:22 – 23 (cf. Col. 1:24); 5:25 – 26.

MORMONISM TEACHES: The Mormon Church Is the Only True Church • “And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually” (D&C 1:30). Here, allegedly, Christ himself gives Joseph Smith and the other early church leaders power to lay the foundation of the only church with which he is well pleased. • “I was answered that I must join none of them [Christian churches], for they were all wrong; and the Personage [Jesus] who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith — History 1:19).

===============

THE BIBLE TEACHES: God Is Spirit • “To the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever” (1 Tim. 1:17). • “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). • “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation” (Col. 1:15). • “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” (John 1:18). • “ ‘Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them?’ declares the LORD. ‘Do not I fill heaven and earth?’ ” (Jer. 23:24).

MORMONISM TEACHES: God the Father Has a Body of Flesh and Bones • “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22). • “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see . . . he was once a man like us . . . and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345 – 46).

===============

THE BIBLE TEACHES: There Is One God • “ ‘You are my witnesses,’ declares the LORD, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me’” (Isa. 43:10). • “This is what the LORD says — Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. . . . Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock [God]; I know not one” (Isa. 44:6, 8). • Also see: James 2:19; Deut. 6:4; Neh. 9:6 (cf. Hos. 13:4); Isa. 45:21 – 22.

MORMONISM TEACHES: Plurality of Gods — Do Not Accept the Triune God — Man Works His Way to Godhood. • “Then they shall be gods, because they have no end . . . then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods . . . and the angels are subject unto them” (D&C 132:20). • “They have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods” (D&C 132:37). • “Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth” (see Abraham 4:1 – 31; 5:1 – 21). • “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost a distinct personage or spirit, and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 370).

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (p. 341-343). Zondervan. Kindle Edition. (Emphasis in bold and underlining added.)

***Lynn Wilder gives additional info about the comparison of biblical Christian doctrine and Mormon doctrine on her website here: Ex-mormon Christians United For Jesus | Sharing Biblical truth in love | Are Mormon Doctrines Christian?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Actually, I did this in my What Mormons Believe... thread, but here it is again.


The following excerpt is from "Appendix 2" of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder (original formatting changed):

QUICK DOCTRINAL COMPARISON OF MORMONISM AND THE BIBLE

THE BIBLE TEACHES: The Church Consists of the Body of Believers • “Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us” (Rom.12:4 – 6). • “Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it” (Eph. 4:3 – 7). • Jesus said, “I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it” (Matt. 16:18). • Also see: Matt. 18:19 – 20; Mark 3:24 – 25; 1 Cor. 1:10 – 12; 12:11 – 14; Eph. 1:22 – 23 (cf. Col. 1:24); 5:25 – 26.

MORMONISM TEACHES: The Mormon Church Is the Only True Church • “And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually” (D&C 1:30). Here, allegedly, Christ himself gives Joseph Smith and the other early church leaders power to lay the foundation of the only church with which he is well pleased. • “I was answered that I must join none of them [Christian churches], for they were all wrong; and the Personage [Jesus] who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith — History 1:19).

===============

THE BIBLE TEACHES: God Is Spirit • “To the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever” (1 Tim. 1:17). • “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). • “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation” (Col. 1:15). • “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” (John 1:18). • “ ‘Who can hide in secret places so that I cannot see them?’ declares the LORD. ‘Do not I fill heaven and earth?’ ” (Jer. 23:24).

MORMONISM TEACHES: God the Father Has a Body of Flesh and Bones • “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22). • “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see . . . he was once a man like us . . . and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345 – 46).

===============

THE BIBLE TEACHES: There Is One God • “ ‘You are my witnesses,’ declares the LORD, ‘and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me’” (Isa. 43:10). • “This is what the LORD says — Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. . . . Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock [God]; I know not one” (Isa. 44:6, 8). • Also see: James 2:19; Deut. 6:4; Neh. 9:6 (cf. Hos. 13:4); Isa. 45:21 – 22.

MORMONISM TEACHES: Plurality of Gods — Do Not Accept the Triune God — Man Works His Way to Godhood. • “Then they shall be gods, because they have no end . . . then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods . . . and the angels are subject unto them” (D&C 132:20). • “They have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods” (D&C 132:37). • “Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth” (see Abraham 4:1 – 31; 5:1 – 21). • “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost a distinct personage or spirit, and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 370).

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (p. 341-343). Zondervan. Kindle Edition. (Emphasis in bold and underlining added.)

***Lynn Wilder gives additional info about the comparison of biblical Christian doctrine and Mormon doctrine on her website here: Ex-mormon Christians United For Jesus | Sharing Biblical truth in love | Are Mormon Doctrines Christian?

That’s you copy and pasting, not thinking. And I did address these points, correcting bad info, and how LDS view this as synergy with the Bible.

 

[theophilus]

Would advise someone to steer clear of a person who bore a Mormon label but to embrace the one who bore a Protestant label even though you did not know either one personally?

We are not to judge people by their labels but we are to judge whether they teach the truth. We can't tell anything about a person's beliefs when he is a Protestant because there is a wide range of beliefs among those who bear that label; when someone is a Mormon we can tell more about his beliefs because the Mormon church has a set of beliefs that all its members are required to adhere to.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Here's one of the problems I have seen with discussing Mormonism on this forum. Somewhere on this forum a person said that non-Mormons can't really understand Mormon doctrine. So...Mormon doctrine was presented from a book written by a thirty-year ex-Mormon, Lynn Wilder. I created that thread. But some people were saying that we can't take what she says about Mormonism to be true because she must have an ax to grind as a former Mormon.... There's no winning!

LDS material has been quoted in this thread and others. It's up to each individual to check out what Mormons believe and come to their own conclusions--between them and God. I'm to telling anyone what to believe. But understanding what Mormons believe can be difficult because they use different terms, or use Christian terms differently, than Protestant denominations. (I won't speak for Catholicism because I've never been Catholic.)

It is my hope and prayer that we will ALL know the truth because it is the TRUTH that sets us free! In the following verses, Jesus is telling God the Father that He gave His apostles the Father's word. It is this word that became the written Word of God, the Holy Bible. There is no other book that qualifies as the written Word of God! Jesus spoke the word of God the Father so that His apostles and future generations could know His word and be sanctified in truth.

John 17:13-21--But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Here's one of the problems I have seen with discussing Mormonism on this forum. Somewhere on this forum a person said that non-Mormons can't really understand Mormon doctrine.

There's a difference between can not and usually don't. I have indeed met many non-LDS Christians whom have ears to hear and actually have took the time to understand LDS Christian beleifs.
However, I've also met many many non-LDS Christians whom don't understand LDS Christian beliefs at all and just want to listen to a hate-bashing echo chamber.

So...Mormon doctrine was presented from a book written by a thirty-year ex-Mormon, Lynn Wilder. I created that thread. But some people were saying that we can't take what she says about Mormonism to be true because she must have an ax to grind as a former Mormon.... There's no winning!

Because that book is downright full of false information and is axe-grinding. I'll cover another example of that in a minute (doing that in a separate post). And are you willing to listen and get good information?

LDS material has been quoted in this thread and others. It's up to each individual to check out what Mormons believe and come to their own conclusions--between them and God. I'm to telling anyone what to believe. But understanding what Mormons believe can be difficult because they use different terms, or use Christian terms differently, than Protestant denominations. (I won't speak for Catholicism because I've never been Catholic.)

That's why listening is important. Real study. Not blind quoting from "anti-cult" sources.

It is my hope and prayer that we will ALL know the truth because it is the TRUTH that sets us free!

Is it? And what if the TRUTH of what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe does not match "anti-cult" sources (which includes Lynn Wilder)?
Are you willing to listen to the truth and be set free from those anti-cult ideas?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

We are not to judge people by their labels but we are to judge whether they teach the truth. We can't tell anything about a person's beliefs when he is a Protestant because there is a wide range of beliefs among those who bear that label; when someone is a Mormon we can tell more about his beliefs because the Mormon church has a set of beliefs that all its members are required to adhere to.

LDS Christians individual aren't clones of each other. Just like any other group.

And it's helpful to listen to what the actual beliefs are.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

@Prayer Warrior , I'm going to go over one example of clarifying actual LDS Christians beliefs and sorting that from bad information. To facilitate this and cross any communication hurdles, I'll be using Protestant lingo unless otherwise noted.

The point I'll be talking about first is this:

The following excerpt is from "Appendix 2" of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder (original formatting changed):

QUICK DOCTRINAL COMPARISON OF MORMONISM AND THE BIBLE

THE BIBLE TEACHES: The Church Consists of the Body of Believers • “Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us” (Rom.12:4 – 6). • “Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it” (Eph. 4:3 – 7). • Jesus said, “I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it” (Matt. 16:18). • Also see: Matt. 18:19 – 20; Mark 3:24 – 25; 1 Cor. 1:10 – 12; 12:11 – 14; Eph. 1:22 – 23 (cf. Col. 1:24); 5:25 – 26.

MORMONISM TEACHES: The Mormon Church Is the Only True Church • “And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually” (D&C 1:30). Here, allegedly, Christ himself gives Joseph Smith and the other early church leaders power to lay the foundation of the only church with which he is well pleased. • “I was answered that I must join none of them [Christian churches], for they were all wrong; and the Personage [Jesus] who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith — History 1:19).

The above quoted section is mixing up several different definitions of "church" and hence trying to compare apples and puppies. I'll talk about each definition and then compare beliefs on each point.

1) "Church" being the body of saved believers (the "invisible church", to use Protestant lingo): Protestant Christians, LDS Christians and vast vast majority of all other Christians do believe Christ being a member of the church is about welcoming Christ into your heart, accepting Him as your Lord and Savior, and following Him. This is the thing that matters most, above all others. LDS Christians readily acknowledge that there are individuals belonging to this church in non-LDS pews: that many people sitting in Protestant pews, Catholic pews, LDS pews etc belong to this church and will spending eternity dancing with God. Conversely, there are some individuals sitting in LDS pews that are only giving lip service to God and their hearts are set elseware. Both LDS Christians and other Christians believe all of the Bible verses quoted 100%.

2) The ultimate True theology: needless to say that there is one ultimate theological Truth from God. In Heaven we're not going to be having all of the theological debates like we see on this forum-- we'll know all of the Truth all of the way. And there is only one ultimate theological truth. In the mean time we're all still learning. Theology is super important, even if it's not what saves a person.

3) "Church" being the visible church - a literal on Earth organized group where Truths are preached: traditionally Christians did indeed believe in the importance of this. Catholic and Orthodox churches being millennium old examples of that belief. Protestants are more varied on this importance of literally going to church or organization beyond the local congregation. LDS Christians do believe in the importance of a literal organized visible church. It is to that definition the quotes from "Joseph Smith — History 1:19" and "D&C 1:30" are referring to. That doesn't mean that individuals are perfect (cause they ain't remotely!).

Using a specific example to further illustrate this: using definition #1, I (and other LDS Christians) readily acknowledge the salvation of a Catholic person and we are in the same church. Using definition #2: I don't believe that everything Catholicism teaches is the ultimate Truth. They have many good things taught therein, but I have some serious objections on certain points. Using definition #3: obviously I don't believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the primary literal vessel in which God is primarily doing His work, even imperfectly.

 

[JesusFan1]

Well I am glad for your sake you are so certain... if you really are. To me it appears to be a blanket condemnation against which we are warned in the scriptures.

"He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matt 13:28-30

Well I am glad for your sake you are so certain... if you really are. To me it appears to be a blanket condemnation against which we are warned in the scriptures.

"He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matt 13:28-30

We are commanded to fight for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints, to point out wrong doctrines and especially wrong Jesus and Gospels!

 

[JesusFan1]

This could apply to any religious group.

Mormons and JW have always been seen by the Church at large as being Cults!

 

[JesusFan1]

LDS Christians individual aren't clones of each other. Just like any other group.

And it's helpful to listen to what the actual beliefs are.

Mormons must hold to what Joseph Smith, Brigham Young held as doctgrines and practices, as well as the announcements over the years from their Apostles since then!