Do Men Have Authority Over Women?

[Bob Estey]

No you aren't, you are taking what the english words say at face value without even considering the context of what he is speaking.

No, Paul said women shouldn't speak in churches. There's only one way to interpret that.

 

[Bob Estey]

Paul's letters are genuine what? Clearly you don't think they are Scripture because you keep dancing around that subject. So, like I said, you are picking and choosing what you think is Bible based on what you agree or do not agree with.

The Bible says those are letters by Paul. The Bible is telling the truth.

 

[Bob Estey]

Hello @Bob Estey,

Paul was a called Apostle, chosen by God, instructed by the risen Christ, and lead by the Holy Spirit, how dare you or anyone else question what he had to say. He spoke by divine authority.

God is our Maker, and He knows us, He knows our strengths and weaknesses, and has given instruction accordingly. It is in our interests to listen and to submit to His rule and authority, whether male or female. He will give the necessary love and grace to the willing soul.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Being an apostle doesn't make you God.

 

[MatthewG]

Paul was very plain: Women shouldn't speak in churches. I disagree.

And there is nothing wrong with that Bob. There is no need to even justify it, you just let it be brother.

Take care!

 

[reformed1689]

The Bible says those are letters by Paul. The Bible is telling the truth.

The Bible says those letters are by Paul? What chapter? What verse?

 

[reformed1689]

No, Paul said women shouldn't speak in churches. There's only one way to interpret that.

Yeah and you take it beyond that interpretation. That's my point.

 

[Bob Estey]

And there is nothing wrong with that Bob. There is no need to even justify it, you just let it be brother.

Take care!

I don't think God told Paul to tell the churches that women can't speak when they are in churches.

 

[Bob Estey]

The Bible says those letters are by Paul? What chapter? What verse?

Let's start with his first letter. In my Bible, the (old) Revised Standard Version, the heading is: The Letter of Paul to the Romans.

 

[Bob Estey]

Yeah and you take it beyond that interpretation. That's my point.

No, I don't. Paul said women shouldn't speak when they are in a church. That means they can't speak while they do mission work, raise money, cook dinners, etc. while in a church. I don't think God told him to say that.

 

[Grailhunter]

Let's start with his first letter. In my Bible, the (old) Revised Standard Version, the heading is: The Letter of Paul to the Romans.

Just FYI, the manuscripts did not come with titles, or chapter and verse numbers. Those were added around 1557.

 

[Taken]

Your opinion and one I do not agree with. Also, please stop shouting in your posts or I will put you on ignore. For that, I will gladly put someone on ignore.

~lol

 

[MatthewG]

I don't think God told Paul to tell the churches that women can't speak when they are in churches.

It doesn't really matter to me personally what one thinks, though I would agree with you. Historically for a purpose was Paul writing for it.

No condemnation from me personally as Every single individual is responsible for how they choose to live; and we seek to worship God in spirit and in truth, learning and seeking the truths of the Bible. I believe Paul himself addresses sometimes that it was he himself speaking and not God.


So I don't care what any of these people think if they decide they need to take what Paul says in everything and make demands and commands on other people though I may not agree with it.

All of us are responsible for our walk with God.

And from what the commandments said by Jesus we love God first, with our heart, mind and strength or soul? and love others.

I am not here to judge or condemn anyone here as that is left in Gods hands.

Love you, and all take care.

 

[quietthinker]

Do Men Have Authority Over Women?
Do men have authority over themselves?

 

[Bob Estey]

Just FYI, the manuscripts did not come with titles, or chapter and verse numbers. Those were added around 1557.

I think the implication was that it was a letter from Paul.

 

[Bob Estey]

Do Men Have Authority Over Women?
Do men have authority over themselves?

Amazing.

 

[Grailhunter]

I think the implication was that it was a letter from Paul.

Oh, no doubt.

 

[Bob Estey]

Do Men Have Authority Over Women?
Do men have authority over themselves?

Amazing.

Why didn't I think of that?

 

[quietthinker]

Why didn't I think of that?

well, when I see it happen, I'll sit up straight :)

 

[Grailhunter]

Women and Christianity....the longer version.

Paul was singling women out in a very Jewish manner. Women should not preach, or have authority over men, the head of the woman is the man, and they should not talk in church. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety….Then Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

Any of this for the men for any reason? There is an apparent pattern here, singling out women to degrade them, setting them up for a second rate status in society and the church. Degrade? Sounds cruel but it is actually the Jewish norm. Paul is proposing a continuance of Jewish customs in relation to women in Christianity. And it happened.

The custom of arranged marriages.....Women were not allowed to go off with their suitors. Dating does not become a custom until the 1900's and it is mostly connected to the advent of the automobile. Many times ladies were not allowed to pick their husbands. Courtship versus Arranged Marriages. Still a custom in different areas of the world, but for Christians it became less frequent during the 1800's and in the America's the early 1700's. But not outlawed until the marriage act of 1950, which outlawed arranged marriages, and enabled women to divorce their husbands, and made it illegal for men to have multiple wives.. Polygamy was not address by the Ecumenical councils. But for Christians, polygamy was never common and was "phased out" around the turn of the first millennium.

So we are debating whether women were allowed to speak in church? Women were not allowed to speak in pubic. And it should be no surprise that the Bible is about what men believed. The female voice is kept to a minimal in the New Testament. And as most of you know the women's rights movement does not occur until the 1900's when they received the right to vote.....etc. And as a whole the Christian churches were dead set against women's rights...and some still to this day. What would Christ do?

On the other hand Christ did not express this belief or attitude towards women. He defended them and went to their aid. The story of the adulterous woman brought before Him. The unique scenario of the forgiveness of the prostitute that washed his feet with her tears. His first documented miracle occurs at the request of His mother. He gave the woman at the well a mission for her to accomplish, which was something He knew His own Apostles could not do. Women funded and supported His ministry, offering up their homes….He had a following of women and they appeared at the cross with Him when the Apostles were off hiding somewhere. In more than one instance Christ commends women for their faith...not something He usually notes in men. Messiah means anointed one….only women anointed Him….One of the most significant events in Christianity was given to Mary Magdalene to proclaim His resurrection. The females believed, but the men thought they were seeing a ghost.

Then we can get into the study where it looks like Paul’s attitude towards women changed as his ministry went a long. Several times He commends them for their service in the ministry and maybe even commends Phoebe as a deacon?

Some translate Roman 16:1 as a female deacon and the actual scriptures seem to support this reading….I commend now to you Phoebe the sister of us also a servant of the church in Cenchrea. The word used is “also” as in an equivalent to them as servants of the church… Then also Paul commended several women, both Jewish and Gentile, and often included details of their contributions to the ministry and the community. I would not be the only one to point out that Paul like the rest of us was human and in his Christian walk with Christ learnt things as he went along.

 

[complete]

Being an apostle doesn't make you God.

Hello @Bob Estey

That is a disappointing response. For obviously Paul was, by his own admission, a servant of God. However, as an Apostle of the risen Christ, he administered what was imparted to Him. If he was speaking on his own authority concerning women speaking in church then he would have said so. His reason for giving that instruction is stated plainly. Comparison of such scriptures as 1 Timothy 2:9-14 and 2 Corinthians 11:1-4, give an insight into why Paul said this about women. It was as much a safeguard for the women themselves, as it was for the church and for truth itself:-

'In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel,
with shamefacedness and sobriety;
not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
.. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
.... But I suffer not a woman to teach,
...... nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived,
but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.'
(1Tim 2:9-)

'Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly:
and indeed bear with me.
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy:
for I have espoused you to one husband,
that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
.. But I fear, lest by any means,
.... as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
...... so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached,
.. or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received,
.... or another gospel, which ye have not accepted,
...... ye might well bear with him.'
(2 Cor. 11:1-)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris