Do we sow Peace?

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Stranger

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Truth and righteousness IS mercy and forgiveness. Is it not? Isaiah 5:7
[7] For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

No, it's not. You want to see mercy and forgiveness in everything as though nothing else exists. The verse you chose is saying just the opposite of what you want to say. It is judgement.

The vineyard in (Is. 5:7) is the house of Israel. What did God say concerning this vineyard? (Is. 5:3) "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard."

(Is. 5:4) "What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?"

(Is. 5:5) "And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: "

(Is. 5:6) "And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorn: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it."

(Is. 5:7) "For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. "

'Judgement' in (5:7) is just judgment. Of which God saw none. He saw only oppression. He looked for righteousness and saw only a cries of distress due to oppression.

Therefore God pronounces a just judgement upon Israel.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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That is it ...what you are saying(or what I’m hearing) is this ...what Jesus Christ displayed openly to all mankind ...humility, rest, trust, submission. Love. Love for an enemy that used Him and hated Him and rejected Him which is the world could not possibly be seen as power. He must come in power as seen of man and stomp down in strength, but no where does God say this kind of strength is what overcomes the enemy. Overcome evil with good. And that is what He did. In humility...the enemy has to shut his mouth.

As far as the description that we should not desire Him. Again, seen from the flesh He held no beauty BUT by the Spirit of God He was Hebrews 1:3
[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Purged=overcome our enemy...He sat on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

John 16:25
[25] These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Love IS power.

Again, you are only looking at Christ at His first coming. When He comes the Second time, He isn't going to be the suffering Servant. He is coming as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. His enemies He will destroy. He won't submit to their cruelties this time. He will be covered with their blood, not His.

Misdirected love is nauseous.

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VictoryinJesus

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No, it's not. You want to see mercy and forgiveness in everything as though nothing else exists. The verse you chose is saying just the opposite of what you want to say. It is judgement.

The vineyard in (Is. 5:7) is the house of Israel. What did God say concerning this vineyard? (Is. 5:3) "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard."

(Is. 5:4) "What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?"

(Is. 5:5) "And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: "

(Is. 5:6) "And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorn: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it."

(Is. 5:7) "For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. "

'Judgement' in (5:7) is just judgment. Of which God saw none. He saw only oppression. He looked for righteousness and saw only a cries of distress due to oppression.

Therefore God pronounces a just judgement upon Israel.

Stranger


Mercy is what He was looking for. That is what was supposed to come from the grapes. The fruit of righteousness. He will still have mercy on the Jews because His judgement is always for good. You (maybe) misunderstand. I’m not saying some really hard things don’t take place. Things I might not understand or even hard to look at, but God is always good. He doesn’t overcome evil with evil but instead overcomes hate with love. Always, always is His hand stretched out still.

Psalm 85:10-13
[10] Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other . [11] Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven. [12] Yea, the Lord shall give that which is good; and our land shall yield her increase. [13] Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of his steps.

Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ephesians 5:9-11
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth [10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. [11] And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them .

I could give you a personal testimony that is biblical but I won’t. It is as if your saying God tells us to do things He can’t even do Himself. Matthew 5:43-48
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans 12:19-21
[19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
 

Stranger

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Mercy is what He was looking for. That is what was supposed to come from the grapes. The fruit of righteousness. He will still have mercy on the Jews because His judgement is always for good. You (maybe) misunderstand. I’m not saying some really hard things don’t take place. Things I might not understand or even hard to look at, but God is always good. He doesn’t overcome evil with evil but instead overcomes hate with love. Always, always is His hand stretched out still.

Psalm 85:10-13
[10] Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other . [11] Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven. [12] Yea, the Lord shall give that which is good; and our land shall yield her increase. [13] Righteousness shall go before him; and shall set us in the way of his steps.

Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ephesians 5:9-11
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth [10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. [11] And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them .

I could give you a personal testimony that is biblical but I won’t. It is as if your saying God tells us to do things He can’t even do Himself. Matthew 5:43-48
[43] Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; [45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? [47] And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others ? do not even the publicans so? [48] Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans 12:19-21
[19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Mercy is not what God was looking for in these verses. A just judgement and righteousness was what He was looking for. Instead He found oppression and cries of distress. Thus He came against Israel in judgement.

Concerning (Ps. 85:10), it doesn't make mercy and truth or righteousness and peace the same thing. They are not. They have met together in the salvation of God. (85:9) They have met together on the Cross with Jesus Christ.

This concerns the believing (Ps. 85:6-7). Not the enemies of God.

Concerning your verses in (Galatians) and (Ehesians), I have no problem.

You ask would God want you to do things that He won't do Himself. Possibly. Doesn't God love the world? (John 3:16 Yet, we are not to love the world. (1 John 2:15)

Yes, (Rom. 12) is clear, 'vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. So why do you have a problem with Christ returning with the 'day of vengeance' in his heart? Why do you have a problem with Christ taking vengeance on His enemies in (Is. 63)?

Stranger
 

VictoryinJesus

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Mercy is not what God was looking for in these verses. A just judgement and righteousness was what He was looking for. Instead He found oppression and cries of distress. Thus He came against Israel in judgement.

Concerning (Ps. 85:10), it doesn't make mercy and truth or righteousness and peace the same thing. They are not. They have met together in the salvation of God. (85:9) They have met together on the Cross with Jesus Christ.

This concerns the believing (Ps. 85:6-7). Not the enemies of God.

You’re going to great lengths to separate judgement and truth from mercy, when He rules from the mercy seat.

You ask would God want you to do things that He won't do Himself. Possibly. Doesn't God love the world? (John 3:16 Yet, we are not to love the world. (1 John 2:15)

Yes. How do reconcile that?

Yes, (Rom. 12) is clear, 'vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. So why do you have a problem with Christ returning with the 'day of vengeance' in his heart? Why do you have a problem with Christ taking vengeance on His enemies in (Is. 63)?

You may think this is stupid but what has stood out recently is our form of entertainment. The shoot-them-up movies that are all the same: the bad guys murder innocent victims then the hero rushes in and starts slitting the throats of the bad guys. The hero chokes the bad guy and his body twitches as the hero takes his vengeance and we cheer...goodness has defeated the enemy! Maybe this is what God does. Maybe that is why we find it so entertaining and hopeful. It is on the horizon: An eye for eye. Do unto them as they have done unto you. God is just waiting to take (man’s) vengeance on the ones this world has blinded!
 
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bbyrd009

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Could you please list a few?
Well, pretty mundane stuff, I just shoveled out mom's parking spot when I am surely better served by shoveling her in, sis wants the whole stairway desnowed, even the outside invisible part, so I'll do that, etc. I'm carrying twenty extra pounds bc mom feels better buying me useless crap, usually plastic which everyone knows I detest, more of a prob for others or the environment tho i guess. Either one of them would poison you to death with their food, it's a running joke between me and bil...ok maybe not to death, at least yet. Anyway I'd just come across as bragging prolly if I told you the lengths I goto to eat real food, I'm in the Aspen Valley right now, no, I don't particularly want chubb hamburger with elk loin right up the road and I'm offering or buying, bil is the same way, doesn't matter though, we're both gagging down tacos with reheated Chubb. Dang, now I'm pissed again lol. Anyway, stuff like that, that present as contests of will, more or less
 

Stranger

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You’re going to great lengths to separate judgement and truth from mercy, when He rules from the mercy seat.



Yes. How do reconcile that?



You may think this is stupid but what has stood out recently is our form of entertainment. The shoot-them-up movies that are all the same: the bad guys murder innocent victims then the hero rushes in and starts slitting the throats of the bad guys. The hero chokes the bad guy and his body twitches as the hero takes his vengeance and we cheer...goodness has defeated the enemy! Maybe this is what God does. Maybe that is why we find it so entertaining and hopeful. It is on the horizon: An eye for eye. Do unto them as they have done unto you. God is just waiting to take (man’s) vengeance on the ones this world has blinded!

I have never said there is no mercy. There is. But it is confined to Jesus Christ. There will be no mercy at the Great White Throne judgement. They who reject Jesus Christ, reject the mercy. As was shown, mercy and truth and righteousness have come together at the Cross. That is the only place they come together for man. You however are saying they can reject the mercy, and still obtain mercy. Any outside of Christ face God in all His righteousness.

I reconcile it by believing it first of all. I believe both. Why shouldn't I?

Why do you say 'man's vengeance'? It is God's vengeance.

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

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James 2:26
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

For the body without the Spirit of God is dead. So also faith without the fruit of the Spirit (charity) is dead. (IMO)

Hebrews 9:14
[14] How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

To purge your conscience from dead works ...to serve the living God. “Serve”. Always focused on self and constantly mopping and whining of not being good enough (which I do enough of while looking at the outward man), is selfish and self-defeating. I don’t know what more you want me to say? The works (of God) I see in my life might not even be what you consider works. What I meant was to be freed from the constant picking at the outward man and what he does, to being freed to serve a living God.
Oh, I get you, that particular outward man usually ends up being picked at by his peers, right? I think this is maybe largely @mjrhealth 's deal on works too, the psychotic picking at others' perceived sins, usually victimless? This is codependency, even if the pickers do usually mean well. We are a Codependent country now. Melody Beattie's book would bring more salvation to this forum than a Bible even could in the short term at least imo, my premise there being that when you start reading the Bible is usually about twenty years after you have supposedly started following it, and then you have twenty years of two eyed reading to endure first, etc.

But of course practically speaking almost no one knows what Codependence even means, right.
Many think we are supposed to be codependent (which is not interdependent). Both of the women in my fam are extremely Coda, and they even know it...or I should say they are aware of it, on an academic level or something, they don't really know it I guess
 

bbyrd009

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You can’t use it. God does. His work goes before Him. The glory set before Him. Is that not us? How can you love a Muslim when others say you shouldn’t because they may not believe as you believe. How can you not get offended when someone calls you a Muslim as degrading ? Do you believe you are just an exceptionally good person? Or is it the fruit of the Spirit? Notice...not fruit of the flesh but rather fruit of the Spirit and attributed to Him.
ah, I get you...being offended is largely codependence too, not saying it doesn't still hurt sometimes. Fwiw a strong-willed enough person can fake that too, or an obsequious/defeated enough person can hide it for later too, etc, so there are counterfeits, that I even have to take care not to fall into
 
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bbyrd009

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Exactly. I really want to sit around and talk about all my failures in keeping the law. See...let’s go to church and spend all week working on me and perfecting my holiness but rituals and religious practices...we can take all day every day. At the end of the day, I mess up and tomorrow we can begin again. Let’s clean the outside of this cup again; buff it and polish it and make it shine. It is time consuming while the world hurts for the lack of love.
Hmm, I'll have to consider how this fits as a response to that, too early to see the connection maybe lol. Can you give some examples of this cleaning the outside of the cup? But I have Asperger's, meaning I have an "I could not care less what you think, as long as your opinion is immaterial" thing going on, and I had to learn to add in the last part, so prolly I am kinda on the other end of that particular bell-curve, I find myself maintaining things idc about to avoid the codependent convo later now, stuff like that
 
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VictoryinJesus

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I have never said there is no mercy. There is. But it is confined to Jesus Christ. There will be no mercy at the Great White Throne judgement. They who reject Jesus Christ, reject the mercy. As was shown, mercy and truth and righteousness have come together at the Cross. That is the only place they come together for man. You however are saying they can reject the mercy, and still obtain mercy. Any outside of Christ face God in all His righteousness.

I reconcile it by believing it first of all. I believe both. Why shouldn't I?

Why do you say 'man's vengeance'? It is God's vengeance.

Stranger

Ok. Never thought I was going to convince you to change your opinion. In all fairness I was probably more testing my own. You’re right, I don’t get it. Fifty different views and voices with each saying “God said” this or “God said” that...everyone convinced they have it right when we all say something completely different. If we are talking about putting on a dress or suit and acting better...it may not cost so much to follow the wrong voice. But what if it cost all? Hurt to our family. Maybe even our life to trust and follow the wrong voice? My husband and I was talking about this yesterday and how scary it is to do what you ‘think’ the word says to do when everyone else says “that is not what the word says.” Countless religions. You have something I don’t have ...you are convinced.
 
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bbyrd009

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not sure I follow. Amulet? Could you expand? Also the name Lilith...I read your link but still didn’t understand. Lilith I couldnt find but instead ‘dark creature’? As in Isaiah 34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
well, if you are simply trying to escape Codependency I'm not sure how valid that is tbh. So I'll be in a better position to respond here after I hear the cleaning the outside of the cup stuff. But yes, imo Codependents are very dark in a sense, even if more willfully blind than evil usually?
 

bbyrd009

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Yes, (Rom. 12) is clear, 'vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. So why do you have a problem with Christ returning with the 'day of vengeance' in his heart? Why do you have a problem with Christ taking vengeance on His enemies in (Is. 63)?
Rest assured there will be no vengeance by God upon any of His creation. Ever. Humans are the bloodthirsty ones lol, not God
 

Waiting on him

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Well, pretty mundane stuff, I just shoveled out mom's parking spot when I am surely better served by shoveling her in, sis wants the whole stairway desnowed, even the outside invisible part, so I'll do that, etc. I'm carrying twenty extra pounds bc mom feels better buying me useless crap, usually plastic which everyone knows I detest, more of a prob for others or the environment tho i guess. Either one of them would poison you to death with their food, it's a running joke between me and bil...ok maybe not to death, at least yet. Anyway I'd just come across as bragging prolly if I told you the lengths I goto to eat real food, I'm in the Aspen Valley right now, no, I don't particularly want chubb hamburger with elk loin right up the road and I'm offering or buying, bil is the same way, doesn't matter though, we're both gagging down tacos with reheated Chubb. Dang, now I'm pissed again lol. Anyway, stuff like that, that present as contests of will, more or less
Do you see these works as being works of the spirit?
 

VictoryinJesus

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ah, I get you...being offended is largely codependence too, not saying it doesn't still hurt sometimes.

Works?


Can you give some examples of this cleaning the outside of the cup?

Sitting in the midst of the all-consuming Fire with hate and murder in my heart while my only focus and concern is (putting out) the lit cigarette in my hand.
 
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Stranger

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Ok. Never thought I was going to convince you to change your opinion. In all fairness I was probably more testing my own. You’re right, I don’t get it. Fifty different views and voices with each saying “God said” this or “God said” that...everyone convinced they have it right when we all say something completely different. If we are talking about putting on a dress or suit and acting better...it may not cost so much to follow the wrong voice. But what if it cost all? Hurt to our family. Maybe even our life to trust and follow the wrong voice? My husband and I was talking about this yesterday and how scary it is to do what you ‘think’ the word says to do when everyone else says “that is not what the word says.” Countless religions. You have something I don’t have ...you are convinced.

Well, you mentioned earlier that you used to believe as I do. But then someone taught you differently, if I remember the story right, and you now believe as you do. I have no idea who the teacher or person was and don't care to know. But, I do know this. A Bible teacher, when he teaches, doesn't just teach the immediate message he is giving. He is also teaching how to interpret the Bible. Because he is giving you his interpretation and how he came to it. And that influences just as much as the content of the lesson.

The method you are using now, in my opinion, will never lead you to a surety that such is true. You say I am convinced in my position, and you are correct. You say you are not, and you are correct. And I doubt you will ever be with your method of interpretation. You have centered on one aspect of salvation. Love. Now everything in the Bible must speak to that, and if it doesn't, then you must spiritualize what it says to conform it to that. But worse, you are conforming it to your understanding of 'love' and not God's. God is a God of love. And when He destroys thousands or millions, He is still a God of love. But that is not according to your 'love'.

How could God so love the world that He could kill His own Son? What kind of love is that? It is not your kind.

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Waiting on him

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Well, you mentioned earlier that you used to believe as I do. But then someone taught you differently, if I remember the story right, and you now believe as you do. I have no idea who the teacher or person was and don't care to know. But, I do know this. A Bible teacher, when he teaches, doesn't just teach the immediate message he is giving. He is also teaching how to interpret the Bible. Because he is giving you his interpretation and how he came to it. And that influences just as much as the content of the lesson.

The method you are using now, in my opinion, will never lead you to a surety that such is true. You say I am convinced in my position, and you are correct. You say you are not, and you are correct. And I doubt you will ever be with your method of interpretation. You have centered on one aspect of salvation. Love. Now everything in the Bible must speak to that, and if it doesn't, then you must spiritualize what it says to conform it to that. But worse, you are conforming it to your understanding of 'love' and not God's. God is a God of love. And when He destroys thousands or millions, He is still a God of love. But that is not according to your 'love'.

How could God so love the world that He could kill His own Son? What kind of love is that? It is not your kind.

Stranger
Sure it is. God had spiritual insight to the fruit that would be generated as a result of this love
How could God so love the world that He could kill His own Son? What kind of love is that? It is not your kind.
 
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