Does a Christian sin
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My Bible does not say anything about sinless perfection. It says we are dead to sin.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
It says we are to CONSIDER ourselves dead to sin (Romans 6:11) and behave accordingly. It doesn’t say we are actually dead to sin. Exhortation. A common rhetorical form used in preaching.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Of course. If we reckon (λογίζομαι, v.11) ourselves dead to sin, then it follows we shouldn’t live in it. Mindset first. Action follows mindset.
I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...
The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformer's such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Oh, I don’t know about a “new nature”, but if the New Testament writers spent so much ink and parchment exhorting their flocks to not sin like John, to reckon themselves dead to sin like Paul, it must be because we CAN sin, in thought, word, and deed, in failure to love God with our entire hearts, minds, souls, and strength, and in failure to love our neighbors as ourselves.
And frankly speaking, I think this is empirically verifiable.
And frankly speaking, I think this is empirically verifiable.
What do you want me to do with these New Testament verses... tear them out of the Bible...
Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
being made free from sin, and become servants to God,
1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
No, but you can read those verses in context. Where in the world did we get the idea that individual verses could be understood in isolation?
Read Romans 6 AS A WHOLE. What is this chapter about? The whole chapter is about not serving the power of sin (verse 13). Why does Paul feel it necessary to tell the Roman Christians not to serve sin? Do you see how Paul’s “dying to sin” imagery supports this theme?
Similarly, read 1 John AS A WHOLE. What is the letter about? John’s stated purpose (chapter 2 verse 1) is to exhort his flock to not sin, and to love one another (chapter 4 verse 7). Why did John think it necessary to exhort his flock to not sin? Chapter 3 verses 1-9 are an appeal to their new identity as children of God, and ideally, children of God are not able to sin. Do you see how these verses serve John’s purpose?
There is the ideal we are to strive to achieve.
There is the reality. When we fail to achieve the ideal that children of God don't sin, then what?
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By the Spirit of Christ flowing through them in times of having love towards God and love towards others, no. Because the Spirit of Christ in you can not sin.
In the Flesh, absolutely... from birth.
In the Flesh, absolutely... from birth.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
People say things like this on forums, and I have to ask: Is there some kind of switch we can throw to flip between “Flesh” and “Spirit”?
If we could do that, we’d be a lot better people than we are.
Hello to you friend,
Going to the Gospel and seeing what Jesus Christ said is the best option. I believe that Christians who live a life for God, they put to death the deeds of the body by mortifying them - through sanctification by and through the Spirit. For if a person lives according to the flesh (in the sense of only living for this world only and its own ways); you will die. But if by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
I didn't read most of this thread, but I'll answer the question being asked; yes. Before and after being saved.
In the book of Colossians, we read "putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" We did not put it off. It was the circumcision of Christ. Two verses later we read "together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;..." Again, it's "in him" or "with him." I also want to get the book of Hebrews in here where we see Christ offered himself once "for this he did once" and not like the high priest who offered up the sacrifice daily. The Lord Christ "after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;..."
Peter has the same mindset as Paul when he writes in 1 Peter "that we, being dead to sins,..." Peter goes on to say that Christ suffered once for sins so as to bring us to God, and so this is why the Scripture reads "being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" Again, the old man crucified and the new man put in its place. Peter again, "ceased from sin;..." Put that mindset on or as Peter writes "arm yourself likewise with the same mind:" Because he that has suffered in the flesh or was crucified in the flesh has put on the new man because the other one is dead. That new person "hath ceased from sin;..."
A belief system called Gnosticism was taking root in Christianity at the time the book of John was being written that taught there was a supreme and unknowable Being, which they designated as the "Monad." The Monad produced various gods, who in turn produced other gods, and one of these gods called the "Demiurge" created the earth and then ruled over it as an angry, evil and jealous god. Gnostics believe this evil god was the god of the Old Testament who is called "Elohim" and so the Monad had to send another god known as the "Christ" to bring special knowledge to mankind and free them from the influence of the evil Elohim. And this is why the gnostics do not seek salvation from repenting of their sin (but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence) that they believe the evil creator God and his angels caused. They emphasize salvation of select humans from bodily existence through their awakening to the knowledge of their original divine identity. I believe the Apostle John had them on his mind when he wrote the Epistle of 1 John saying you must realize you have sin and repent. John was not talking to the already saved Christian as the Catholics would like you to believe.
I see this 1 John chapter 1 and 2 as we are either walking in our old dead nature if we are into sin. Or we are walking in the spirit if we are not into sin.
Chapter 1
6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
6. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.
7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
7. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.
8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
8. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.
9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
9. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.
10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
10. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.
Chapter 2
1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
1. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.
2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
2. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.
3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
3. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.
4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
4. Not in him because we are either not saved or have not put on the new man.
5 "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."
5. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.
6 "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
6. In him because we are saved and have put on the new man.
The last verse I'm going to mention has "in him" again. From 1 John we read "that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." We cannot sin in him because there's no sin in him and this is why "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Lambano
Well-Known Member
But doesn't that just leave you to put to death the misdeeds of the flesh in your own power in order to access the power of the spirit to put to death the misdeeds of the flesh?
We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.
The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
You must decide between yourself and your relationship with God. I can’t make people do anything, it’s all by the spirit anyone has any change in the mind and the heart by hearing the word which increases faith, great question.
I wouldn’t think it wise to look in the mirror and tell yourself how awful you are by the standard of yourself vs everyone else. No doubt we all have flaws and issues that God sees, and sometimes in prayer I tell God I know I’m still messed up but his son is all I have to look to, who makes me right before him in faith.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
1 John 1:1 - That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1 John 3:1 - Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
It clearly sounds like 1 John is written to Christians to me. I'm yet to find a NT book that is written directly to non-Christians, although just because a letter in the NT is written TO Christians does not means that everyone being discussed in the letter IS a genuine Christian.
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