VictoryinJesus
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Perfect love cast out torment
1 John 4:18
If God is torment(punishment)…does God cast out Himself?
Does God love, or hate unbelievers?
- Thread starter MatthewG
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Perfect love cast out torment
1 John 4:18
If God is torment(punishment)…does God cast out Himself?
Waiting on him
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And the veil in temple was rent, but I don’t believe for one second it was the literal veil that the LARPERS of today believe it was.
Waiting on him
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VictoryinJesus
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He sure is unlike us.
Isaiah 55:7-9 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. [8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
We say “Burn them all!” …except don’t burn us.
Waiting on him
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Lol, God requested they circumcise their hearts and what do they do, they cut the skin off their wankers. I suppose John was right no man had ever seen God at anytime.
Eiter you read scripture as written, which is good, or you create a private interpretation, which is bad.
Except your speaking about people who are the saved. Those who come to Christ.
The scriptures I showed you are speaking of the wicked who are going to Hell.
About Christ giving his bread to his enemies, we do read that about Judas Iscariot, the Betrayer.
Judas was never saved. Judas did not fall from grace into a destiny of Hell, he was always going to Hell as Jesus called him a devil. There are people who are the children of the devil, whose destiny is Hell.
John 13
18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ 19 Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He. 20 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
Apostle Paul also said to turn believers over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.
You seem to not like what God says about these things.
Do you not think the wicked are going to have burning coals and fire heaped onto them in Hell and the Lake of Fire at the end?
1 Corinthians 5:4-5
New King James Version
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Of course, the goal is that they will repent so that their spirit may be saved. Basically, they were kicked out of the fellowship and thrown into the world. Paul also says to purge the evil ones from among you. They were not to be allowed to continue in the churches and to be exposed to the world.
Some of them are not going to believe and repent no matter what happens. They are born to trouble.
1 Cor 5
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
Job 5:7
Yet man is born to trouble, As the sparks fly upward.
Yes, that is showing the goodness of God for those God loves with a great love, He made them alive who were dead. Those who believe in Christ all of their sins are no longer remembered against them.
But for the unbelieving, God remembers their sins unto judgement of Hell, so the record against them is kept.
Now that also shows that when anyone is saved, born again, this is according to the unmerited mercy of God for a person, and not about anything they did. Even so both robbers reviled Christ, but for one close to the end of life, had a change of heart. This came from the mercy of God for the man as he was born again by the Spirit and then acknowledges Christ the Lord. That is a good example of whom the Lord loves, He saves, and not according to their works will they come under judgement, for they have passed from death into life.
Titus 3
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Ronald Nolette
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My dear Pearl: to equate human feelings with a perfect god is so very wrong!
IN Psalms it says God is angry with the unbelievers every day! We can only go by what it says in HIs word without adding our own philosophy or wentiment.
Here is one that is true but even harder for human sentimentality to deal with:
Romans 9:18-24
King James Version
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
See in verse 22 the phrase fitted for destruction? that in the Greek is in the perfect passive participle which means that they were, are and continue by someone or something other than themselves to keep being made fit for destruction!
This is a very hard statement on human emotion- but it is true nonetheless.
VictoryinJesus
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That is assuming I don’t like it. Sometimes …wrong or right we latch on to something as being profound to us in the word and it stays with us. For me that is one of those, the turning them over to satan.
It is not the verses you quoted that I don’t like, it is the concept of turning them into a futuristic destruction that is final where nothing comes out of it. Does God have ill will in turning them over to a reprobate mind, or by turning them over to satan? Personally I don’t think so, but instead that they may be saved. To me that is not ILL WILL but instead merciful. Which I think we call sanctification: the destruction of the flesh…Peter satan has asked for you. When you are converted, strengthen your brothers. what does converted mean?
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Ronald Nolette
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Yes He is! but He is also Holy!
I will accpet what teh bible teaches! God has demonstrated His anger to nations and individuals and nations many times.
He will display the ultimate of HIs anger and wrath when the vast majority of humanity is cast in to teh lake of fire to suffer for all eternity!
VictoryinJesus
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Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person” they were glorying in the shame of a brother, reveling in it. Put the bottle to his mouth that he also might be made drunk and his nakedness exposed, so they could glorying in that nakedness. Why? Have you ever considered the “evil person” Paul was referring to was within them, within us? In the passage he goes on to name them all …to put away from among them. Put away from yourselves the works of the old man and put on the new man… “Your glorying is not good” put that wicked one without for the destruction of the flesh…to me he was telling them all they needed to put that wicked one (among themselves)without for the destruction of the flesh…cast off the former conversation of the old man…
- 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must you need to go out of the world. [11] But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer(your glorying is not good), or a drunkard (your drunkenness is not good walking in darkness, walk instead in the Light ), or an extortioner(again your glorying is not good); with such a one no not to eat. (And here you are eating of the works of the flesh instead of the fruit of the Spirit of God). [12] For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not you judge them that are within? [13] But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Colossians 3:12-15 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; [13] Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do you. [14] And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. [15] And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be you thankful.
Ephesians 4:29-32 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. [30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. [31] Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: [32] And be you kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you.
No?
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And also, just look what a horrible world we live in that God has allowed.
VictoryinJesus
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you said earlier I need to read and take what it says, even if I don’t like it. “Then Judas, which betrayed him, when he saw he was condemned, repented himself (to regret, repent) and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priest and elders, “I have sinned” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood”
“what is that to us?” They replied. “That is your responsibility”
now Paul
Acts 22:18-21 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me. [19] And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: [20] And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. [21] And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
I get it. There will be some argument over Judas repentance. Deciding “I have sinned” nor “I betrayed innocent blood” wasn’t genuine or enough. What I consider is the shame and humiliation Judas shared ..something Jesus experienced also…when the Pharisees replied “what is that to us” “that is your responsibility” …we can say all we want about Judas repentance and how he went out and hung himself. But what would we say if someone came to one of the local churches, sat in the congregation and stood up to say “I have sinned” “I have betrayed innocent blood” …going out to hang yourself seems to me like unconsolable remorse coupled with no opportunity to heal the shame of it…while those replied back to Judas “what is that to us. That is your responsibility.” Like they had no hand in shedding innocent blood or needed no repentance of “I have sinned”
But he does not pour out his wrath on those of us who are truly reborn spiritually and he is also merciful. And the outpouring of wrath does not signify hate as we understand it.
Their end though is whatever God has decreed. Those given over to a reprobate mind, God is not going to save. As it also says about them this,
Romans 1
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased (reprobate) mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Once God gives over a person, they are doomed (dedicated) to destruction. This is actually also an Old Testament theme, still true today in the NC. Some verses, there are many more along this same idea.
- Leviticus 27:29
No person under the ban, who may become doomed to destruction among men, shall be redeemed, but shall surely be put to death.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Deuteronomy 7:26
Nor shall you bring an abomination into your house, lest you be doomed to destruction like it. You shall utterly detest it and utterly abhor it, for it is an accursed thing.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Deuteronomy 32:24
They shall be wasted with hunger, Devoured by pestilence and bitter destruction; I will also send against them the teeth of beasts, With the poison of serpents of the dust.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Many are accursed and doomed to destruction in the lake that burns with fire. A reprobate person has many characteristics, just as Paul wrote of them, including homosexuality and sexual immorality. Why also did Paul write to do good to all men, ESPECIALLY those of the house of faith. Because of what Jesus says here, the least of these my brothers. His brothers are saved believers.
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Judas was doomed to destruction, according to the prophetic scriptures.
He also did not repent of his sin. He shows no fruits of repentance, He did not give away his blood money payment for the betrayal, he went and bought himself a field.
Acts 1
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;
and,
‘Let another take his office.’
His dwelling place the last 2000 years is a desolate place in hell. Maybe he is also isolated in a dungeon of hell too, although the prophecy could simply refer to his planned habitation in life after betraying the Lord. We have a sure word from Christ that Judas was lost. Judas is a son of HELL, so being what he was and is, you can be certain Hell is his habitation.
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
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