Does God Love Sinners?

[Axehead]

lesjude, on 05 Mar 2013 - 12:22, said:
You continue to attack Calvinism which was never the issue of the OP.

This is because you clearly are imbibing the same spirit behind Calvinism regarding Total Depravity/Inability and Unconditional Election. Calvinism is just a referential belief system that most here are aware of. You are not the first one to come up with this erroneous belief though you say it is Biblical.

The Bible depicts a God who sets specific limits on our lives and choices, but we are free to choose among those choices. This world was created with certain parameters and limited choices and within these parameters and choices we are allowed to use our freedom of choice. At the same time, God is reaching out to man in as many different ways as there are individuals, all confined within His character and word.

For instance, Adam is the one that CHOOSES the name for every animal, but it was God that decided which animals to create.

Consider Acts 17: 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. [27] God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."

So, God may predestine the amount of choices we have (good, evil, life, death, blessing, curse) but He leaves the choice up to us. Kind of like a menu. And God has preset those conditions or parameters in how we come to Him and on what basis we relate to Him. God has not hidden himself. He has set specific conditions in place so that we may find him, if we want to. The question is want or desire, which is choice.

God does not force us to choose; rather, he offers us pre-made choices that we can accept or reject.

Consider 1 Tim. 2:4 God our Saviour wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
God wishes, desires, hungers, wants all people to be saved.

God wants EVERYONE, not a handful of pre-determined, pre-destined people. And this is where the TULIP principle fails miserably.

Have we forgotten John_3:16?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

verse 18, also affirms...
John_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Nothing about "he that is elected or he that is not elected". The scriptures are implying that some will choose to believe and some will choose not to believe. It squarely puts the emphasis on MAN NOT GOD!

Here is a non-determinist passage of scripture along with many others (Matthew 21:32, Mark 16:16a, John 1:7, 6:29, 11:26; and 19:35 (to name a few), and is also confirmed in the Pauline writings such as Romans 4:4-5 and 24, 16:25-6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 3:7; 3:22; and 1 Timothy 2:3-4 to name a few).

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What is the LORD's WILL?

• That NONE shall Perish
• ALL should come to repentance!
• But, you don't believe the ELECT need to repent, do you?

Axehead

 

[forrestcupp]

The elect are drawn by God not forced. They freely choose Him because of His work in their lives they do not even realize. However if you look back on your life before salvation you will see many examples of God's work. I can.
1 John 5:3

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

1 John 4:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 We love Him[a] because He first loved us.

You have it backwards. If God did not elect some then none would be saved. Romans 3:9-19.

But you're focusing on the "forcing" part of what I said, and that's not what I want answered. I shouldn't have used that word.

If God had the ability to pick who He wants to be part of the elect, that means that He knowingly didn't pick a lot of people (billions). God knows that the alternative to salvation is damnation. So He knowingly doomed billions of people to damnation when He only chose certain people to be the elect. Not only that, but He did it before any of them were even born, so they never even had a chance. Why would God do that?

Let me ask you another question. Do you believe it's possible for people who weren't predetermined to be part of the elect to be saved?

 

[Axehead]

Let me ask you another question. Do you believe it's possible for people who weren't predetermined to be part of the elect to be saved?

I don't think lesjude believes anyone has any chance whatsoever to be saved if they were not predetermined, and chosen by God.

But, I won't say for sure and will look for his answer to you.

But, that begs the question: Why didn't God just make a race of men that would be saved? Why make a race of men that would be created only for one eternal purpose: namely, to suffer in hell?

Axehead

 

[lesjude]

This is because you clearly are imbibing the same spirit behind Calvinism regarding Total Depravity/Inability and Unconditional Election. Calvinism is just a referential belief system that most here are aware of. You are not the first one to come up with this erroneous belief though you say it is Biblical.

The Bible depicts a God who sets specific limits on our lives and choices, but we are free to choose among those choices. This world was created with certain parameters and limited choices and within these parameters and choices we are allowed to use our freedom of choice. At the same time, God is reaching out to man in as many different ways as there are individuals, all confined within His character and word.

For instance, Adam is the one that CHOOSES the name for every animal, but it was God that decided which animals to create.

Consider Acts 17: 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. [27] God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."

So, God may predestine the amount of choices we have (good, evil, life, death, blessing, curse) but He leaves the choice up to us. Kind of like a menu. And God has preset those conditions or parameters in how we come to Him and on what basis we relate to Him. God has not hidden himself. He has set specific conditions in place so that we may find him, if we want to. The question is want or desire, which is choice.

God does not force us to choose; rather, he offers us pre-made choices that we can accept or reject.

Consider 1 Tim. 2:4 God our Saviour wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
God wishes, desires, hungers, wants all people to be saved.

God wants EVERYONE, not a handful of pre-determined, pre-destined people. And this is where the TULIP principle fails miserably.

Have we forgotten John_3:16?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

verse 18, also affirms...
John_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Nothing about "he that is elected or he that is not elected". The scriptures are implying that some will choose to believe and some will choose not to believe. It squarely puts the emphasis on MAN NOT GOD!

Here is a non-determinist passage of scripture along with many others (Matthew 21:32, Mark 16:16a, John 1:7, 6:29, 11:26; and 19:35 (to name a few), and is also confirmed in the Pauline writings such as Romans 4:4-5 and 24, 16:25-6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 3:7; 3:22; and 1 Timothy 2:3-4 to name a few).

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What is the LORD's WILL?

• That NONE shall Perish
• ALL should come to repentance!
• But, you don't believe the ELECT need to repent, do you?

Axehead

The scriptures referring to the love of God in nearly every case
throughout the NT is the love He has for His elect predestined
saints that were chosen before the foundation of the earth who were
sinners but are manifestly saved.


He only loves sinners in the sense of Matthew 5:45. Acts 14:17, Job
21:7-16 and the fact that He allows them to live even in their sins.


The Bible has this to say about God's feeling for sinners:

Romans 9:11-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or
evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of
works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall
serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice


14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly
not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[c]


Psalm 5:6

New King James Version (NKJV)

6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood;

The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.


Leviticus 20:23

New King James Version (NKJV)

23 And you shall not walk in the statutes of the nation which I am
casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them.


Hosea 9:15


New King James Version (NKJV)


15 “All their wickedness is in Gilgal,

For there I hated them.

Because of the evil of their deeds

I will drive them from My house;

I will love them no more.

All their princes are rebellious.


Psalm 53:5


New King James Version (NKJV)


5 There they are in great fear

Where no fear was,

For God has scattered the bones of him who encamps against you;

You have put them to shame,
Because God has despised them.


Psalm 2:4

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.


Psalm 59:8

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 But You, O Lord, shall laugh at them;

You shall have all the nations in derision.


Proverbs 6:16-18


New King James Version (NKJV)


16 These six things the Lord hates,

Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:

17 A proud look,

A lying tongue,

Hands that shed innocent blood,

18 A heart that devises wicked plans,

Feet that are swift in running to evil,


The above covers EVERYONE.


Please read Romans 1:18-32 for a comprehensive summary of God's opinion of sinners.


If you read all the messages preached in the book of Acts by the early
church not one mention is made of God's love for sinners. They are told
to repent because they are under the wrath of God.


This false message of God's love for sinners is a fairly recent
development in Christianity and one result is the acceptance and
toleration of sin in churches including sodomy. As a result they think if
God loves me as I am He will not put me in hell if I want to enjoy my
sins. It is a serious error.


God only loves His elect predestined before the beginning of time for
salvation while they are sinners. He died only for them; Jesus
intercedes for them, protects them even in the womb, breaks down the thought
patterns opposing the gospel, and sees to it they here the message of
salvation at the perfect time. From their side they think they are
making a free will choice to receive Jesus. He is drawing them to that
choice.


If God did not elect some none would ever be saved because sinners would freely choose to go on sinning. Romans 3:9-19

But you're focusing on the "forcing" part of what I said, and that's not what I want answered. I shouldn't have used that word.

If God had the ability to pick who He wants to be part of the elect, that means that He knowingly didn't pick a lot of people (billions). God knows that the alternative to salvation is damnation. So He knowingly doomed billions of people to damnation when He only chose certain people to be the elect. Not only that, but He did it before any of them were even born, so they never even had a chance. Why would God do that?

Let me ask you another question. Do you believe it's possible for people who weren't predetermined to be part of the elect to be saved?

That is exactly what it means. EVERYTHING God does is perfect, fair, just and good including ordering several times the slaughter of men, women, children, babies, and pregnant women who all went to hell. In fact God sent to hell most of the Jews in the wilderness. "Few" takes on new meaning if you look at how many Jews were elect and saved. No one has any right to question ANYTHING God does or allows. Job made that mistake and was severely rebuked for it. The only reason anyone does is their humanistic thought patterns plus willful ignorance of God's sovereignty. If God put everyone in hell He would be doing right. He gave men freewill and they became so corrupt he drowned them all but 8. Nothing has changed. Clearly scripture says no one would be saved if God did not elect some. Freewill the Bible clearly teaches is just a term to describe how and to what extent men will choose to disobey God. No one can say otherwise. Romans 12:1-2 is quite clear. Freewill is the essence and basis of ALL sin. No one will give up freewill except the elect. Even the "born again" struggle with that issue and many fail. Will they endure to the end? Again only God can make that call but the Bible gives no assurance.

I see no scripture that gives anyone not elect any hope of salvation. I say again ONLY God knows who they are before they are saved. There will be a multitude however.

 

[forrestcupp]

Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Saying that is only talking about the special "elect" is a major copout. That's an easy answer to squeeze out no matter how obvious the evidence is.

 

[lesjude]

Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Saying that is only talking about the special "elect" is a major copout. That's an easy answer to squeeze out no matter how obvious the evidence is.

ALL the predestined elect were sinners before Jesus apprehended them. He
only saves the elect that were chosen before time began for salvation.
The Bible teaches nothing else.


Romans 8:29-30

New King James Version (NKJV)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the
image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called,
these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


Ephesians 1:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,


Ephesians 2:4-5


New King James Version (NKJV)


4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He
loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive
together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),


2 Timothy 1:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

 

[forrestcupp]

Did you notice that every time it talks about predestination and foreknowing, it speaks in plural terms and never individual, and it's done "in Christ"? It's talking about the body of Christ, not individuals. Also, it says we're predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, not that we're predestined to be saved. It's the body of Christ that is predestined, and anyone who chooses to become a part of that Body is predestined by default.

 

[KingJ]

ALL the predestined elect were sinners before Jesus apprehended them. He
only saves the elect that were chosen before time began for salvation.
The Bible teaches nothing else.

Ephesians 1:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,


2 Timothy 1:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

The ''us'' in these verses is everyone.

 

[lesjude]

Did you notice that every time it talks about predestination and foreknowing, it speaks in plural terms and never individual, and it's done "in Christ"? It's talking about the body of Christ, not individuals. Also, it says we're predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, not that we're predestined to be saved. It's the body of Christ that is predestined, and anyone who chooses to become a part of that Body is predestined by default.

Nonsense. That would mean no one could be saved in the OT including the thief on the cross and all those who died between Christ's ministry and the book of Acts. Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God/heaven over 100 times in the gospels and the church twice. He did not say those who are part of the body of Christ/church will enter the kingdom. He said those born again. The church is in the Kingdom but it is NOT the kingdom of God.

The Bible describes the church as an independent local citywide assembly of born again, water baptized by immersion as believing adults in Jesus' name, Acts 2:4 tongue talking Christians that is under the headship of the Holy Spirit. The point is no one is placed in a local assembly by the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:18, until they are born again There is no such concept in the Bible as a universal church visible or invisible. ALL denominations are called carnal Christianity in the Bible so apparently today there are many carnal Christians.
If, as you say, joining a church is the means of salvation then Romans 10:9-10 and Ephesians 2:8-9 are untrue. MOST churches have additional requirements for "salvation" such as formal church membership which includes giving at least 10%.
Our daughter has been denied "church membership" in a large DC church because she told them that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny were pagan and they were lying to their children. What you are saying is a person this happens to is not elect. NONSENSE!!

 

[dragonfly]

If, as you say, joining a church is the means of salvation

Hi lesjude,

forestcupp didn't say that. Please read it again, slowly, thinking about the meaning as you go along?

We are joined to Christ through the Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit...'

 

[Axehead]

lesjude,

Does the love of Christ that presumably has been shed abroad in your heart burden you for all men that God puts in your path?

I suppose if God elects some for salvation and some for destruction He would share with you who to love and minister the Gospel to.

Otherwise, He is just wasting your resources and energy and sending you on "wild goose chases", right?

Why waste your time with the "damned" when you could be "skipping like a calf" with the Elect?

Axehead

 

[lesjude]

Hi lesjude,

forestcupp didn't say that. Please read it again, slowly, thinking about the meaning as you go along?

We are joined to Christ through the Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit...'

Here is what He said: Did you notice that every time it talks about predestination and
foreknowing, it speaks in plural terms and never individual, and it's
done "in Christ"? It's talking about the body of Christ, not
individuals. Also, it says we're predestined to be conformed to the
image of His Son, not that we're predestined to be saved. It's the body
of Christ that is predestined, and anyone who chooses to become a part
of that Body is predestined by default."
The Body of Christ is just as I said INDIVIDUALS (plural) that are born again, water baptized in Jesus' name, Acts 2:4 believers who join together in local assemblies.
No one will choose to be a member of a local assembly unless they are saved. Then only the elect will endure to the end. Do not confuse being born again with being elect believers or even church membership with elect believers. There is a BIG difference. Read Revelation 2 and 3 and note the words "he who overcomes".
Here is a scripture that says God does elect individuals. His TOTAL plan was finished before time began including who are the elect predestined saints from ALL ages.
Romans 9:11-13
New King James Version (NKJV)


11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
And another:
2 Timothy 1:8-9

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner,
but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the
power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us
with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His
own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time
began,
The us refers to Timothy and Paul.

lesjude,

Does the love of Christ that presumably has been shed abroad in your heart burden you for all men that God puts in your path?

Yes. We are to minister just as Jesus did by the Holy Spirit. He did call Herod a nasty name and refused to talk with him. The Holy Spirit can do the same if you listen to Him. See Acts 8:13-23, Acts 13:8-12

iv>I suppose if God elects some for salvation and some for destruction He would share with you who to love and minister the Gospel to.

lesjude,

Does the love of Christ that presumably has been shed abroad in your heart burden you for all men that God puts in your path?

Yes. We are to minister just as Jesus did by the Holy Spirit. He did
call Herod a nasty name and refused to talk with him. The Holy Spirit
can do the same if you listen to Him. See Acts 8:13-23, Acts 13:8-12

iv>I suppose if God elects some for salvation and some for destruction He would share with you who to love and minister the Gospel to.

 

[Axehead]

-Axehead-

lesjude,

Does the love of Christ that presumably has been shed abroad in your heart burden you for all men that God puts in your path?

-Lesjude-
Yes. We are to minister just as Jesus did by the Holy Spirit. He did call Herod a nasty name and refused to talk with him. The Holy Spirit can do the same if you listen to Him. See Acts 8:13-23, Acts 13:8-12


-Axehead-
What are you trying to say? That people we have to call a nasty name (rebuke) are evidently not the Elect? Is that what you are saying? If not, what is your point? Do you think all people come to the Lord the very first time. Don't you know that God loves the unlovely and will withstand multitudes of rejections until He convinces one to turn away from all that is not of Him. That's love, lesjude. Love for the sinner and it is the love that we are to show to all sinners, so yes, I guess God does love all sinners because He is loving them through us.

Somehow, I think this doctrine of yours is just too tidy. Maybe for people that have grown up in church and never fell into classicly, evil sin so they never experienced continuously rejecting the Lord and then choosing Him and His ways, one day after they finally came to the end of themselves. You know, He has a way of getting our attention. And why?

Do you see any parallel to your doctrine of the Elect in human interpersonal relationships? No. All relationships are built on mutual trust and respecting one another's will (choices).

 

[lesjude]

-Axehead-


-Lesjude-
Yes. We are to minister just as Jesus did by the Holy Spirit. He did call Herod a nasty name and refused to talk with him. The Holy Spirit can do the same if you listen to Him. See Acts 8:13-23, Acts 13:8-12

-Axehead-
What are you trying to say? That people we have to call a nasty name (rebuke) are evidently not the Elect? Is that what you are saying? If not, what is your point? Do you think all people come to the Lord the very first time. Don't you know that God loves the unlovely and will withstand multitudes of rejections until He convinces one to turn away from all that is not of Him. That's love, lesjude. Love for the sinner and it is the love that we are to show to all sinners, so yes, I guess God does love all sinners because He is loving them through us.

I gave complete answers to you previous post but only one of my answers would appear. I tried twice but to no avail. I have said NUMEROUS times only God knows who the elect are. My point was ministry to ALL should be led by the Holy Spirit Acts 16:6, and He is NOT especially user friendly. Acts 13:7-12, Acts 8:13-23.
The exception to knowing who the elect are is God's promise in Acts 16:31 for the salvation of one's whole family. My wife and I have seen the salvation of all our family on both sides and are believing for extended family and those by marriage. Why should the devil have them. However Bible faith and being led by the Holy Spirit are the keys.
You will search in vain for any preaching in the whole NT that anyone told unsaved sinners God loved them. He loves His elect while they are sinners and will see to it they receive Christ. I have given NUMEROUS scriptures that state the general ways God loves sinners which by the way they scoff at, do not believe, and are not the least bit grateful. I have seen sinners healed by God with no salvation. Maybe later and maybe not. God's love for His elect is VERY different and I have given numerous examples of that love.
I have told you some plant, some water, BUT the Lord gives the increase

>>
Somehow, I think this doctrine of yours is just too tidy. Maybe for people that have grown up in church and never fell into classicly, evil sin so they never experienced continuously rejecting the Lord and then choosing Him and His ways, one day after they finally came to the end of themselves. You know, He has a way of getting our attention. And why?

Predestination/election is taught all through the Bible. It is "mine" only in the sense that I believe the Bible and in the sovereignty of God. You do not. No one "chooses" God unless they are elect. It matters not if they are murderers like Paul or just average unsaved church members. We are free to minister to all as the Holy Spirit leads. We are under no pressure by Him to "win" souls. We only do what He gives us to do at the time without using "altar psychology", appeal to human emotionalism, and other forms of manipulation to get a "confession of faith". There is a real freedom to minister as a result.
For example we were asked to come and pray for an unsaved man about a physical issue. We explained about casting out demons and did just that. He felt the power of God drive them out, raised His arms, and gave His life to Jesus. We later learned from another person he had been very hard toward the gospel.

Do you see any parallel to your doctrine of the Elect in human interpersonal relationships? No. All relationships are built on mutual trust and respecting one another's will (choices).

The elect will make a freewill choice to receive Jesus because of the MANY things I have mentioned God does to draw them and for no other reason. The rest freely choose to stay in sin.

 

[Axehead]

Predestination/election is taught all through the Bible. It is "mine" only in the sense that I believe the Bible and in the sovereignty of God. You do not. No one "chooses" God unless they are elect. It matters not if they are murderers like Paul or just average unsaved church members. We are free to minister to all as the Holy Spirit leads. We are under no pressure by Him to "win" souls. We only do what He gives us to do at the time without using "altar psychology", appeal to human emotionalism, and other forms of manipulation to get a "confession of faith". There is a real freedom to minister as a result.
For example we were asked to come and pray for an unsaved man about a physical issue. We explained about casting out demons and did just that. He felt the power of God drive them out, raised His arms, and gave His life to Jesus. We later learned from another person he had been very hard toward the gospel.
The elect will make a freewill choice to receive Jesus because of the MANY things I have mentioned God does to draw them and for no other reason. The rest freely choose to stay in sin.

Hi lesjude,

I just wanted to comment that you don't seem to use the quote feature correctly because it is always hard to quote (and keep) what you say.

That aside, I want to understand what you are saying and since you don't subscribe to Calvinism, I believe you. I think that is a demonic doctrine. So, in trying to understand you, I believe you are simply saying that Only the saved will be saved. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Only the elect will be saved.

Let's see, let me try that this way. God only loves the saved. Hmmm, that does not work as well, because He obviously loves the unsaved before they are saved.

The fact that Paul and Peter will preach the Gospel to a throng of people and Jesus also did that, proves they love the unsaved, because undoubtedly many hearers will not receive the gospel. So, they are warning men to repent who may not repent and that tells me they love all sinners. It's kind of hard to warn people of the wrath to come and just make sure you are warning the Elect and to make sure no Elect are around.

So, the fact that Jesus and Apostles command "All men everywhere to repent", demonstrates to me, love for all men's souls.

So, I may not agree with you on that one point. Ok? No, I cannot find a verse that says, "Jesus loves Sinners".

But, I did find these verses that may not speak to you, but they do speak to me that God loves sinners.

Luk_15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Now in Luke_15:7, It was a quote from Jesus, so it kind of escapes me why he did not take the opportunity to say "Elect" instead of "sinner". When man speaks in the NT, I can understand why he says "sinner", because he does not know who the elect are, but why didn't Jesus take the opportunity to communicate to His church that only the "Elect" are saved by using the word "Elect" in Luke_15:7? Just a minor curiosity. It is also noteworthy that Jesus mentioned repentance. I don't know if I ever asked you, but do you believe the Elect need to repent?

Oh yeah, and why is there joy in heaven when a predetermined person comes to the Lord? I mean, wouldn't that be the angels flattering God. I mean they know the predetermined people are going to get saved, so why not just a yawn from them, like, "yeah, I know, it's supposed to happen, no big deal"? But, no can't have a yawn. Have to make God feel mighty and wonderful so let's hoop and holler and show God how great He is, even though secretly they are thinking "I wish we did not have to do this because it's all predetermined, anyway."

Or maybe, man really does have a choice and they are rejoicing because it really is a miracle convincing man to look beyond what he sees in the physical and reach out by faith to a God that he cannot touch? What do you think? Is that something to rejoice about or what?


Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

I kind of wonder why James did not take the opportunity to say, "Hey, if you convert a sinner, you just found one of the Elect". Instead, he said, "You will save a soul from death". Well, duh, James!! That's obvious. Isn't that crazy lesjude? James is stating the obvious. Doesn't he know that if you convert a sinner that you just found one of the Elect? Well, James must have still been a baby Christian having not learned about predestination and unconditional election, yet.

Maybe it should be more like this:
Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way just found one of the Elect.

I mean James talks about "saving a soul from death" as if it is a big deal that one of the Elect did not get away. Isn't that your whole premise? All predetermined, unconditionally elected people WILL come to Christ. So, what is the big deal with all the Scriptures that treat it like some kind of miracle? And there are many more scriptures. Why not just a "YAWN"?

By the way, I'm glad you and your wife's family got saved, but it's really no big deal, right? They were predetermined anyway.

Do you still think Angels are rejoicing in heaven?

Great chatting,
Axehead

P.S. Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

We know the Elect don't die spiritually and this is what God is saying in Eze_18:32, because everyone dies physically. So, if the the Elect don't die spiritually, why would God tell the non-elect to "turn themselves and live"?

Just another little curiosity.

 

[lesjude]

Hi lesjude,

I just wanted to comment that you don't seem to use the quote feature correctly because it is always hard to quote (and keep) what you say.

That aside, I want to understand what you are saying and since you don't subscribe to Calvinism, I believe you. I think that is a demonic doctrine. So, in trying to understand you, I believe you are simply saying that Only the saved will be saved. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Only the elect will be saved.

Only the elect predestined before time began will endure to the end. Born again does NOT necessarily mean the person will endure to the end. I have quoted numerous scriptures in this regard.


Let's see, let me try that this way. God only loves the saved. Hmmm, that does not work as well, because He obviously loves the unsaved before they are saved.

God loves the elect. Judas was "saved" but was one of the first to fulfill the parable of the sower. Here is another group that had made a profession of faith but did not endure. 1 John 2:19

The fact that Paul and Peter will preach the Gospel to a throng of people and Jesus also did that, proves they love the unsaved, because undoubtedly many hearers will not receive the gospel. So, they are warning men to repent who may not repent and that tells me they love all sinners. It's kind of hard to warn people of the wrath to come and just make sure you are warning the Elect and to make sure no Elect are around.

The only thing it proves is the gospel must be preached to all because the elect in ALL nations must hear it and respond. The non elect will make a free will choice to reject it and this will be the basis of their judgement. Please read the messages given by Christ and the same in the book of Acts. None even mention God's love for sinners.

So, the fact that Jesus and Apostles command "All men everywhere to repent", demonstrates to me, love for all men's souls.

Only the elect will repent and endure to the end. All are to hear the general call but only God makes the call effectual for the elect. Paul and the rest of the church knew this and did not press anyone for a confession of faith. 2 Corinthians 2:14-16

So, I may not agree with you on that one point. Ok? No, I cannot find a verse that says, "Jesus loves Sinners".

OK

But, I did find these verses that may not speak to you, but they do speak to me that God loves sinners.

Luk_15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Now in Luke_15:7, It was a quote from Jesus, so it kind of escapes me why he did not take the opportunity to say "Elect" instead of "sinner". When man speaks in the NT, I can understand why he says "sinner", because he does not know who the elect are, but why didn't Jesus take the opportunity to communicate to His church that only the "Elect" are saved by using the word "Elect" in Luke_15:7? Just a minor curiosity. It is also noteworthy that Jesus mentioned repentance. I don't know if I ever asked you, but do you believe the Elect need to repent?

Yes, the elect need to repent and will maintain an attitude of repentance. Jesus is God and came to preach, teach and demonstrate the kingdom of God bringing God's elect into it. The point is ALL are sinners and it would serve no purpose to call the elect because the Pharisees et al were certain they were the elect. Nothing has changed today.

Oh yeah, and why is there joy in heaven when a predetermined person comes to the Lord? I mean, wouldn't that be the angels flattering God. I mean they know the predetermined people are going to get saved, so why not just a yawn from them, like, "yeah, I know, it's supposed to happen, no big deal"? But, no can't have a yawn. Have to make God feel mighty and wonderful so let's hoop and holler and show God how great He is, even though secretly they are thinking "I wish we did not have to do this because it's all predetermined, anyway."

The elect are sinners and some go their whole lives resisting the gospel. I know of at least 3 that came in at the last minute. The angels do not know when and see a lot of negative before it happens.Of course they rejoice when a tough one or any one comes in.

Or maybe, man really does have a choice and they are rejoicing because it really is a miracle convincing man to look beyond what he sees in the physical and reach out by faith to a God that he cannot touch? What do you think? Is that something to rejoice about or what?

It is a miracle but ALL miracles were predestined before time began. I like to see people healed and delivered but the truth is seeing them translated into the kingdom is the greatest miracle. We have a promise that we will bear fruit and our fruit will remain. There are conditions to see this however. Some of the conditions one may not like John 15:1-8

Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

I kind of wonder why James did not take the opportunity to say, "Hey, if you convert a sinner, you just found one of the Elect". Instead, he said, "You will save a soul from death". Well, duh, James!! That's obvious. Isn't that crazy lesjude? James is stating the obvious. Doesn't he know that if you convert a sinner that you just found one of the Elect? Well, James must have still been a baby Christian having not learned about predestination and unconditional election, yet.

Maybe it should be more like this:
Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way just found one of the Elect.

I mean James talks about "saving a soul from death" as if it is a big deal that one of the Elect did not get away. Isn't that your whole premise? All predetermined, unconditionally elected people WILL come to Christ. So, what is the big deal with all the Scriptures that treat it like some kind of miracle? And there are many more scriptures. Why not just a "YAWN"?

By the way, I'm glad you and your wife's family got saved, but it's really no big deal, right? They were predetermined anyway.

Do you still think Angels are rejoicing in heaven?

Great chatting,
Axehead

The context of James 5:20 is referring to a saved person that has fallen into sin. Again no one knows who the elect are so you minister truth to all. It is a cause for rejoicing because so many do not listen.

P.S. Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

We know the Elect don't die spiritually and this is what God is saying in Eze_18:32, because everyone dies physically. So, if the the Elect don't die spiritually, why would God tell the non-elect to "turn themselves and live"?

Just another little curiosity.

God does not want to see anyone die violently or prematurely including the elect who too frequently do. However for sinners there are consequences for living in the devil's kingdom and if God did not stay his hand it would be much worse for those in that kingdom. This call is primarily to the elect because of the ugly consequences of their sin before salvation including abortion, drug overdose, divorce, killing others, etc.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Axehead,

Please think carefully about what this verse is saying.

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.


I think it tells us that God is rejoicing, not the angels.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,

Please think carefully about what this verse is saying.

Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.


I think it tells us that God is rejoicing, not the angels.

So, that makes it even more unusual that God would rejoice when a predetermined saved soul doesn't choose by his will to be repent and believe the Gospel.

God is rejoicing over someone who did not use his will to choose to follow Him.

I think I get it.

It's easy now. Only the elect will be saved, only the elect will endure. Or to say it another way, the Elect will never be lost or give up.

I don't disagree with that. It's kind of like "Monday morning quarterbacking". What I disagree with is that man has no volitional response in accepting God's gift of grace or receiving Jesus Christ. As if our choosing to repent of our sins and follow Jesus somehow invalidates what He did on the cross and cancels out His grace.

 

[dragonfly]

???

So, that makes it even more unusual that God would rejoice when a predetermined saved soul doesn't choose by his will to be repent and believe the Gospel.

God is rejoicing over someone who did not use his will to choose to follow Him.

I think I get it.

Aren't 'the elect' all sinners before they are saved?

 

[Axehead]

???


Aren't 'the elect' all sinners before they are saved?

But, according to lesjude, God only loves some while they are sinners. (If they are the Elect). The other blaspheming, vulgar, perverted sinners don't qualify not because their sin is the same as the Elect sinners, but because they were created primarily to be destroyed. That is what I am getting from les.

So, what's all the rejoicing about by a God who has already predetermined that the elect sinners will be turned into the elect saints. It's like a little boy playing with toy soldiers who have no choice and he lines them up on opposite sides and then rejoices when the side that he had predetermined to win, wins. It's kind of weird, to me.

The term "pawns" comes to mind.

For lesjude:

If we are to love our enemies, presumably because Jesus loved His enemies then that means that Jesus DOES love sinners. Because not all our enemies or His enemies are the Elect. Jesus does not distinguish between elect or not. He says love your enemies, do good to them and pray for them.

Mat_5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;