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Does God Love Sinners?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by lesjude, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Then you don't agree with Heb.6:1-6. If you care to read and meditate on its meaning, you will see that salvation happens only one time. The passage says that if one were to fall away, it would be impossible to renew him again to repentance (meaning change of mind). This is why the writer said that it was unneccesary to revisit the foundation.

    The enduring to the end is not about behavior, but rather, faith. However, This passage in Heb.6 does not say that one cannot fall away. But it does indeed say that salvation is a one time ticket. I guess, not to change the subject, but we ought to think hard about just what it would take for a person to actually lose his "salvation". Jesus made a promise in John 5:24, that through faith in Him, we will not see judgment, but have passed from death to life. Faith is that which is and always has been under attack.

    O, and yes. God loves sinners. (Agape, not Phileos). I can't fathom how this thread is still rambling on.
     
  2. lesjude

    lesjude New Member

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    God is "partial" from the humanist point of view. Jesus was partial to Peter, James, and John Matthew 17:1-13. Jesus called Judas a devil to his face John 6:71. He told a large number of His disciples who decided not to follow Him any longer they could not anyway John 6:65-66. God drowned all but eight in the flood. God only ever choose one nation out of all the tribes and nations of the earth.The rest died in their sins. He ordered the extermination of all the "ites" in Canaan.
    God says He hates, despises, laughs at, spurns, abhors, holds in derision sinners as well as being an abomination to Him.
    In James 2 here is what is referred to:


    James 2:6-8
    New King James Version (NKJV)


    6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
    8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you do well;

    Here is what God says about the rich:


    James 5:1-6
    New King James Version (NKJV)


    Rich Oppressors Will Be Judged
    5 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your
    gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness
    against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up
    treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed
    the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by
    fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of
    the Lord of Sabaoth.[a] 5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as[b] in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

    Which is exactly why they should not be favored.



    Matthew 19:23-24
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And
    again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a
    needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

    AND


    Romans 9:11-13
    New King James Version (NKJV)


    11 (for the children
    not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
    of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
    calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[b]
     
  3. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    If someone is backslidden and repeatedly falls under the control of the powers of darkness, and just always seems to be weak and easily led astray, do you just cast him off as not part of the "Elect"? God hates sin but loves the sinner. Jesus Christ and the Apostles demonstrate that.

    When men stand before God at the Great White Throne judgment do you envision God saying to some men, "You were predetermined for hell, so don't even try to say anything. You were just a useful tool in my hand, so don't try to say anything, it won't make any difference?" How incredibly cruel is that?

    If the Elected cannot be lost, then why do they need an Advocate to plead on their behalf?

    No, I don't believe the Scriptures teach that.

    The more I think about Total Depravity, which is the Total Inability to make any free choices towards the initiating act of the Holy Spirit, the more it smells of the Putrid One.

    In udder woids, if you did not understand that, they are saying that man does not play any role, based on his own god-given and grace enabled WILL to say "Yes, Lord, I will receive your gift of salvation. Please Lord Jesus, come into my life, I gladly come under your authority and turn from my wicked ways."

    No man will be able to accuse God at the Great White Throne judgment and be justified in his accusation of an unfair, and unjust God.

    I'm done. That's all.

    Shalom,

    Axehead
     
  4. lesjude

    lesjude New Member

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    You do not grasp the fact that they made FREEWILL choices to do as they did.
    Romans 9:20-21

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
    Ask God because it it His plan. It is one way that the elect from God's side are assured of endurance because the devil hates us. He could care less about sinners already in his kingdom.
    I have NEVER said man plays no role. The elect must hear and respond to the gospel. They have no idea at the time it is God giving the grace to do it. If it is any other way it is NOT grace because man is doing something on his own apart from grace to be saved. Those who do not receive that grace make a freewill choice to reject the gospel and could not care less.
    Do you know what grace is? Do you know how God's grace functions?
    Do you know what humanism is and that it is an abomination to God?
    Nor in any other judgement. ALL His judgements were made, finished, over and done with before time began sovereignly including who were the elect.



    The predestined elect is the ALL men which God chose in Christ before time began.
    Our families and loved ones can be claimed by faith Acts 16:31 so in that sense they are elect. John 15:1-8 says believers will have much fruit that remains but there is a cost to be paid for both. The key is Hebrews 11 and Mark 11:24 faith and being led by the Holy Spirit in all ministry.
    Some will not be born again because they are reprobate from the womb. Others are literal children of demon angels and are also reprobate.
    So no, all cannot be "born again".
     
  5. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    Don't you see the conflict in what you are communicating to people? Maybe you believe it correctly, but you are not communicating it correctly.

    Out of one side of your mouth, you say men are predetermined for destruction. They have no choice.

    Out of the other side of your mouth, you say they willingly (freewill) chose destruction. They have choice.

    Where is the freewill in them being designed for hell?

    Say what???? :blink:

    Yes, I read my Bible. Explain your contradiction of the Word of God.
     
  6. lesjude

    lesjude New Member

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    You miss the point that unless God had predetermined some for salvation NONE would be saved. They have no idea they are choosing destruction and ALL have their own view as to what happens when they die. None of those views includes eternity in torment. All the non elect scoff at that idea.
     
  7. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    Oh, I got it. Makes perfect sense! And if God did not predetermine some for destruction, NONE would be lost.

    We can't have that now, can we?
    So, some have no idea they are choosing life and some have no idea they are choosing destruction.

    Let's break this down:

    1. None would be saved unless they were predetermined for life.
    2. None would be lost unless they were predetermined for destruction.
    3. Those who choose life have no idea they are choosing life.
    4. Those who choose death have no idea they are choosing death.

    That leaves me with only one question then: Why didn't God predetermine EVERYONE for LIFE if, if, if, LIFE or DEATH is not our choosing (at least we don't know it is). Boy, are we all in for a big surprise? We just don't know what we're choosing!!

    [​IMG]
     
    KingJ likes this.
  8. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    yeah, Calvin's view of predestination is a total mess - sorry lesjude
     
  9. lesjude

    lesjude New Member

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    The elect are aware they are choosing life.

    This is what the Bible teaches.



    No, all would be lost by a freewill choice.


    No, they are aware of choosing life .



    They reject the gospel and have no idea nor do they care they have chosen death.
    Those that choose life know they have chosen and are choosing life when they do it John 6:68-69. Life is a freewill choice by the elect by GRACE, not because they made the choice knowingly without grace. They could not. No one can. Only the elect receive that grace.
    I do not know why God did not predetermine all to receive grace for salvation. I think one reason might be that some are the offspring of fallen angels mating with the women of the earth. 1 John 2:18 and Genesis 6:1-7
    The book of 1 John is full of things a Christian can know about his salvation and how they can know it. The elect will not be surprised but others will be: Matthew 7:21-27, Matthew 22:1-14, Matthew 25:1-13.
     
  10. forrestcupp

    forrestcupp Active Member

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    You make it really hard to get the answer out of you that I want. So let me try to be as precise and to the point as I can. Do you believe that some people who are not part of "The Elect" can be born again?

    I think he's basically saying that from our perspective, it appears to us that we are making a choice from our free will, but in reality, God made the choice for us and as a result, there is nothing we can do outside of God's choice.
     
  11. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    sounds more like molism than Calvinism. The very act of God's preknowledge of an individual's freewill choice destines them for heaven or hell.
     
  12. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    So true. And then suicide by those destined for glory or destined for hell should not be an issue.

    Remember the Jim Jones commune in Guyana?
    He talked 900 people into drinking poison during communion and they all died (cyanide). I wonder how many we're of the elect.

    With the logic we have been hearing some of those 900 people could be part of the elect. Gives a whole new meaning to natural disasters and accidents where many people die.
     
  13. lesjude

    lesjude New Member

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  14. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    You differentiate between the born-again and the elect and sometimes the born-again are not saved.

    So, maybe the "elect" that think they are choosing life, are really the born-again, that aren't going to endure.

    In other words, according to your logic, the elect and the born-again are aware they are choosing life, but only the elect will make it. All the elect are born-again, but some that are born-again won't necessarily be the elect (endure until the end).

    I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you mean. Is my understanding of what you are saying correct (in this respect)?
     
  15. JB_Reformed Baptist

    JB_Reformed Baptist Many are called but few are chosen.

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    . :)
     
  16. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    This way?


    Romans 5:8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
     
  17. lesjude

    lesjude New Member

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    Yes, however this is made reference to the saved in the church not to all sinners. You will never find a message addressed to the unsaved in the NT that states God loves sinners.

    Suicide is a sin that is difficult to repent of. All that anyone can say of a professing Christian or anyone else who does this is God will treat them with perfect fairness. There are numerous accounts of those who attempted suicide and God supernaturally intervened to preserve them. Some say all suicides go to "hell" automatically. I do not see this in the Bible.
     
  18. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    We need to get out of our heads and get into our hearts, and especially into God's heart. The God Whom I know, love, and Who loves Me, loves sinners. What is the fruit of the Spirit? ...Love. Are we expected to love only those who are lovable? God loves, not because the person is lovable, but because God IS love. Love does because love is.
     
  19. KingJ

    KingJ New Member

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    ''Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated''' AND James 2 (partiality IS A SIN), Acts 10:34 (God's impartiality is a truth you NEED to perceive!!) and Rom 2:11.

    As all calvinists do, you down-play James 2 and miss scripture stating it is a sin to be partial :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:. Scripture cannot be clearer! Do you know the dictionary definition of ''partial''?

    Show me a scripture that literally says God is partial. You need to supply that as I have supplied scripture that literally says God is not and that it is a sin. We know the story of Esau and Jacob and can understand how God would come to that conclusion.

    Ugh, actually I am done. Partiality in any form = satanism. Impartiality = Christianity.

    Acts 10:34 ''Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons'':

    Lesjude I pray you perceive it too, before you lose your faith.
     
  20. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    actually Essua and His descendents ended up recieving many blessings from God. Just because his earthly father only had one blessing doesn't mean his father in heaven only has one blessing.
     
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