Does God Love Sinners?

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lesjude

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Axehead said:
But, according to lesjude, God only loves some while they are sinners. (If they are the Elect). The other blaspheming, vulgar, perverted sinners don't qualify not because their sin is the same as the Elect sinners, but because they were created primarily to be destroyed. That is what I am getting from les.
You choose to ignore all the scripture I have given that states how God because He IS love gives grace and mercy to sinners. The elect receive it while they are in sin and the non elect as they continue in sin by a FREEWILL choice. However God's judgements will fall on sinners at the end of the age just as they did in the OT. No, sinners serve very useful purposes in carrying out God's plan which was made, finished, and over with from before time began. They do it by making freewill choices which God directs using His determinative, directive, preventive, and permissive controls. Sinners were necessary to carry out God's predetermined plan for Christ's crucifixion as well as the rest of the predetermined plan.



So, what's all the rejoicing about by a God who has already predetermined that the elect sinners will be turned into the elect saints. It's like a little boy playing with toy soldiers who have no choice and he lines them up on opposite sides and then rejoices when the side that he had predetermined to win, wins. It's kind of weird, to me.

The term "pawns" comes to mind.
I have explained why there is rejoicing when the elect FINALLY come in. Often there is much resistance and some resist to the last minute. Sinners are quite useful to God and His elect, and the Bible gives many ways that they are. You really do not understand the sovereignty of God and insist on humanistic thought patterns which are abhorrent to God.

For lesjude:

If we are to love our enemies, presumably because Jesus loved His enemies then that means that Jesus DOES love sinners. Because not all our enemies or His enemies are the Elect. Jesus does not distinguish between elect or not. He says love your enemies, do good to them and pray for them.

Mat_5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
I have told you God IS love and as a result it is His nature to give grace and mercy to sinners. His love for His elect is FAR different and I have given numerous examples. The early church understood this and NEVER gave a message that spoke of God's love for sinners.


Axehead said:
So, that makes it even more unusual that God would rejoice when a predetermined saved soul doesn't choose by his will to be repent and believe the Gospel.

God is rejoicing over someone who did not use his will to choose to follow Him.

I think I get it.

It's easy now. Only the elect will be saved, only the elect will endure. Or to say it another way, the Elect will never be lost or give up.

I don't disagree with that. It's kind of like "Monday morning quarterbacking". What I disagree with is that man has no volitional response in accepting God's gift of grace or receiving Jesus Christ. As if our choosing to repent of our sins and follow Jesus somehow invalidates what He did on the cross and cancels out His grace.
That grace flows to the elect ONLY because Christ died to make it possible. What you do not seem to grasp is that EVERYTHING was predetermined by God before time began. The elect do make a freewill choice from their standpoint, but only because of the grace they receive. ANYTHING else would not be grace but man choosing without grace. If the grace were there for everyone all would be saved which is certainly contrary to what the Bible says.
 

KingJ

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lesjude said:
That grace flows to the elect ONLY because Christ died to make it possible. What you do not seem to grasp is that EVERYTHING was predetermined by God before time began. The elect do make a freewill choice from their standpoint, but only because of the grace they receive. ANYTHING else would not be grace but man choosing without grace. If the grace were there for everyone all would be saved which is certainly contrary to what the Bible says.
Why you confuse it so much??? The grace iS tHeRe FoR eVeRyOnE. It is YOUR choice to accept or reject it. Did all the angels have the option to follow the devil or stay with God? Or only a selected few that God foreknew would? You fail to grasp the IS in God IS impartial.

Are you actually open to the truth? You just come here to repeat your weak opinion?

I teach children at a type of Sunday school. My lesson this Sunday was '''God is impartial''. You want me to send you the notes? If you stood in front of them with your tripe, they would rightly throw tomatoes at you ^_^ . You are a bad Christian. I don't even think you are one. How a Christian can believe and accept a God that is partial is BEYOND me! because it is sick! You are either NOT a Christian or I am not one. Because everything you have written here makes me want to be sick. Your view is sick. Sick sick sick!!!

Did you ever accept my dare of visiting a hospital?

Imagine it....hello my name is Lesjude and I am a Christian.....'''oh how nice of you to come visit us, we love Jesus but have our doubts, please pray for us'''....NO I have come to tell you that you and your husband are clearly not elected by God and will go to hell. There is no point in you continuing to live. Your baby too, there is a 99% chance he will join you in hell. God hates you guys. But I am here to gloat. I am chosen. I am elected and I know it because when I pray I feel a tingly feeling in my toes. I have only come here to pray for the sick to prove to everyone that I am God's specially elected man of the hour. Not sure why I am praying for you if your are inherently doomed...mmmm...I never thought that far.

Lesjude you are either evil or God is evil, because partiality is evil! Unless you were an only kid or the kid that got everything I am not sure why you believe as you do. Is it because you believe you have special powers when you pray for the sick? Like Samson?
 

Axehead

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lesjude said:
I have explained why there is rejoicing when the elect FINALLY come in. Often there is much resistance and some resist to the last minute. Sinners are quite useful to God and His elect, and the Bible gives many ways that they are. You really do not understand the sovereignty of God and insist on humanistic thought patterns which are abhorrent to God.

For lesjude:

I have told you God IS love and as a result it is His nature to give grace and mercy to sinners. His love for His elect is FAR different and I have given numerous examples. The early church understood this and NEVER gave a message that spoke of God's love for sinners.

That grace flows to the elect ONLY because Christ died to make it possible. What you do not seem to grasp is that EVERYTHING was predetermined by God before time began. The elect do make a freewill choice from their standpoint, but only because of the grace they receive. ANYTHING else would not be grace but man choosing without grace. If the grace were there for everyone all would be saved which is certainly contrary to what the Bible says.
Maybe we're not connecting because of technicalities. It would probably be easier face to face, but alas, we only have text.

Thank you for hanging in there with me, I don't think you can explain it any other way than the way you have tried and I certainly am having difficulty getting my point across.

Be fruitful and multiply (the harvest is white),

Shalom,
Axehead
 

lesjude

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KingJ said:
Why you confuse it so much??? The grace iS tHeRe FoR eVeRyOnE. It is YOUR choice to accept or reject it. Did all the angels have the option to follow the devil or stay with God? Or only a selected few that God foreknew would? You fail to grasp the IS in God IS impartial.


Are you actually open to the truth? You just come here to repeat your weak opinion?
,He gave sinners freewill and they freely exercise that freewill to go
on sinning. If it is the individual's choice to accept or reject then it
is NOT grace if they choose salvation. The problem is you do not
understand the sovereignty of God, predestination, nor grace. You look
at being impartial through the thought patterns of humanism. God does
not. He ordered the extermination of men, women, babies, and pregnant
women several times, drowned all but 8, says numerous times He hates,
abhors, despises, laughs at, holds in derision, sinners who are an
abomination to Him. His impartial opinion of sinners is made quite clear in Romans 1:18-32.
Here is an example of God's impartiality:


Romans 9:11-13
New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”




I teach children at a type of Sunday school. My lesson this Sunday was '''God is impartial''. You want me to send you the notes? If you stood in front of them with your tripe, they would rightly throw tomatoes at you ^_^ . You are a bad Christian. I don't even think you are one. How a Christian can believe and accept a God that is partial is BEYOND me! because it is sick! You are either NOT a Christian or I am not one. Because everything you have written here makes me want to be sick. Your view is sick. Sick sick sick!!!
His impartial eternal plan was made, finished, over, and done with BEFORE time began. He gave all sinners freewill and all but the elect will continue using that freewill to sin. He gives the elect grace to choose Jesus which they do by a freewill choice from their point of view totally unaware of His grace that enables them.
Did you ever accept my dare of visiting a hospital?

Imagine it....hello my name is Lesjude and I am a Christian.....'''oh how nice of you to come visit us, we love Jesus but have our doubts, please pray for us'''....NO I have come to tell you that you and your husband are clearly not elected by God and will go to hell. There is no point in you continuing to live. Your baby too, there is a 99% chance he will join you in hell. God hates you guys. But I am here to gloat. I am chosen. I am elected and I know it because when I pray I feel a tingly feeling in my toes. I have only come here to pray for the sick to prove to everyone that I am God's specially elected man of the hour. Not sure why I am praying for you if your are inherently doomed...mmmm...I never thought that far.
As I have said already no one but God knows who the elect are so this is what we do every time the Holy Spirit gives us an opportunity for saved and unsaved: Matthew 10:7-8, Mark 16:17-18. How about you? Some are not born again when we do these things. Some I am not sure if they ever do get born again but Jesus heals/delivers them anyway. We were asked to come and pray for an unsaved man who had a physical issue. I explained the gospel, explained casting out demons, and did so. When He felt the power of God he raised his hands and asked Jesus to come into his life. We were later informed by a relative he had been very hard toward the gospel.
Now by FAITH a believer can have fruit that remains meaning salvations of people that are elect and endure to the end. However there is a cost to pay to walk in that promise John 15:1-8.
All believers family members can be claimed for salvation by FAITH based on the promise in Acts 16:31. All the members of our families on all sides are saved based on this promise. We are now believing for extended family so in that sense one can know who is elect. Again the leading of the Holy Spirit is the key as well as Hebrews 11 and Mark 11:23 faith.
Lesjude you are either evil or God is evil, because partiality is evil! Unless you were an only kid or the kid that got everything I am not sure why you believe as you do. Is it because you believe you have special powers when you pray for the sick? Like Samson?
We do what the Bible says "those who believe" will to do. It is the Holy Spirit in us who does the healing/delivering. The issue is most will not do what Jesus says to do but believe teaching Sunday school in their religious social clubs is bringing the kingdom of God to a lost and dying world. It isn't.
You have make a serious charge about something you know very little about.
If you must teach stick to the elementary principles in Hebrews 6:1-2. You might stay out of trouble that way.
Do you have the Acts 2:4 experience with the evidence of speaking in tongues?
 

Axehead

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lesjude said:
He gives the elect grace to choose Jesus...
Then, I guess we have a little conflict, don't we?

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN.

No fair, changing "all men" to "elect".
 
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forrestcupp

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lesjude said:
Nonsense. That would mean no one could be saved in the OT including the thief on the cross and all those who died between Christ's ministry and the book of Acts. Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God/heaven over 100 times in the gospels and the church twice. He did not say those who are part of the body of Christ/church will enter the kingdom. He said those born again. The church is in the Kingdom but it is NOT the kingdom of God.

The Bible describes the church as an independent local citywide assembly of born again, water baptized by immersion as believing adults in Jesus' name, Acts 2:4 tongue talking Christians that is under the headship of the Holy Spirit. The point is no one is placed in a local assembly by the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:18, until they are born again There is no such concept in the Bible as a universal church visible or invisible. ALL denominations are called carnal Christianity in the Bible so apparently today there are many carnal Christians.
If, as you say, joining a church is the means of salvation then Romans 10:9-10 and Ephesians 2:8-9 are untrue. MOST churches have additional requirements for "salvation" such as formal church membership which includes giving at least 10%.
Our daughter has been denied "church membership" in a large DC church because she told them that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny were pagan and they were lying to their children. What you are saying is a person this happens to is not elect. NONSENSE!!
Well I'm done arguing with you. But I do want to point out that you put words in my mouth. Not once did I say "church". I said "the Body of Christ". If you equate the Body of Christ with church membership, then that's your problem. The Body of Christ is made up of everyone who is born again. Why don't you do a little Bible study on the body of Christ, and maybe you'll understand what I'm talking about. But since you changed my words and twisted my meaning, nothing in your post that I quoted applies.

But I'm done arguing with you. I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to convince you that Titus 2:11-12 is true.
 

Axehead

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Was the flood immoral? Was the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, immoral?

You are implying God operates on the basis of morality.

Was it moral to kill His Son?

Is it moral for Him to allow all the tragedies on earth?

God is who He is and does what He does because He is God.

You cannot compare yourself to Him. Just bow down and worship Him and thank Him for His Son.
 

Angelina

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Does God love sinner's?
Of course God loves sinners. If he did not, we would not be saved today - Even in hindsight, we would never be able to work out how God chooses those who will be saved because his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts than our's. ^_^

Isaiah 55:9
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Shalom!
 

aspen

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BiggAndyy said:
I love it when anti-Calvinists lecture us Calvinists on what we "really" believe. Their arrogance make me all tingly inside and I laugh and laugh and laugh at you.
Even funnier is when Calvinists start lecturing Catholics on what we believe after laughing at others for lecturing them on Calvanism. Oh the irony.


Yes. God loves sinners - enough to die for us.
 

Axehead

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aspen2 said:
Even funnier is when Calvinists start lecturing Catholics on what we believe after laughing at others for lecturing them on Calvanism. Oh the irony.


Yes. God loves sinners - enough to die for us.
Why Aspen? Augustinianism is very close to Calvinism. And Calvin was very close to Catholicism. Calvin loved Augustine. He went to the same school a few years later, that Ignatius Loyola (Jesuit founder) went to. C'mon...are you guys pulling our leg? Are you sure you did not plant Calvin in the our midst during the reformation as part of your counter-reformation plans?

Read more to find out

Did John Calvin Make a Clean Break from Catholicism?


[SIZE=10pt]'The Subtle Dangers of Spiritual Fusion'[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 1: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]INTRODUCTION [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 2: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]MY INTRODUCTION TO JOHN CALVIN BY BRENDA / MY MOVE TOWARD CALVINISM & SELECTIVE SALVATION/PREDESTINATION [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 3: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]CALVINISM AND REFORMED THEOLOGY / QUICK OVERVIEW OF CALVINISM / QUICK OVERVIEW OF REFORMED THEOLOGY / THE CHARACTER OF GOD [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 4: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]JOHN CALVIN'S EARLY YEARS [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 5: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]JOHN CALVIN JOINS THE MOVEMENT [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 6: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]JOHN CALVIN'S CONVERSION [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 7:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]DID JOHN CALVIN FULLY BREAK FROM ROMAN CATHOLICISM? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 8: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]AUGUSTINE - ONE OF CATHOLICISM'S EARLY FATHERS [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 9: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]CALVIN'S REFORMATION INVOLVEMENT BEGINS / THE EUCHARIST [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 10: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]CALVIN'S DESPOTIC RULE IN GENEVA [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 11: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]CALVIN'S FINAL YEARS / SUMMARY / CONCLUSION[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]ADDITIONAL READING:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]*NEW* [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Q&A: The Hidden Gospel of Calvinism & Covenant Theology[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Q&A: Are Non-Calvinists "Freewillian" in their Theology?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Q&A: Are Calvinists Heading Back to Rome?
Q&A: Can Preterists be Saved?

Q&A: Are Non-Calvinists Pelegians?
The Calvinism of Rick Warren
John Piper's Regional Conference to be hosted by Rick Warren's Saddleback Church
Calvinism On The Move
Repentance and Lordship Salvation
Q&A: A Calvinist Defends The Legacy of Calvinism (Spanish version available here)

Q&A: Is Calvinism Heresy?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Calvinism's Different God, Jesus and Gospel
Following The Leaders[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Q&A:Calvinism
A Calvinist Objects To Brenda's Testimony[/SIZE]
 

lesjude

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Axehead said:
Then, I guess we have a little conflict, don't we?

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN.

No fair, changing "all men" to "elect".

2 Corinthians 2:14-16
New King James Version (NKJV)


14 Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place. 15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. 16 To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things?
 

Axehead

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lesjude said:
2 Corinthians 2:14-16
New King James Version (NKJV)


14 Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place. 15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. 16 To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things?
I love that verse. One of my favorites.
 

aspen

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Axehead said:
Why Aspen? Augustinianism is very close to Calvinism. And Calvin was very close to Catholicism. Calvin loved Augustine. He went to the same school a few years later, that Ignatius Loyola (Jesuit founder) went to. C'mon...are you guys pulling our leg? Are you sure you did not plant Calvin in the our midst during the reformation as part of your counter-reformation plans?

Read more to find out

Did John Calvin Make a Clean Break from Catholicism?


[SIZE=10pt]'The Subtle Dangers of Spiritual Fusion'[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 1: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]INTRODUCTION [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 2: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]MY INTRODUCTION TO JOHN CALVIN BY BRENDA / MY MOVE TOWARD CALVINISM & SELECTIVE SALVATION/PREDESTINATION [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 3: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]CALVINISM AND REFORMED THEOLOGY / QUICK OVERVIEW OF CALVINISM / QUICK OVERVIEW OF REFORMED THEOLOGY / THE CHARACTER OF GOD [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 4: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]JOHN CALVIN'S EARLY YEARS [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 5: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]JOHN CALVIN JOINS THE MOVEMENT [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 6: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]JOHN CALVIN'S CONVERSION [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 7:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]DID JOHN CALVIN FULLY BREAK FROM ROMAN CATHOLICISM? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 8: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]AUGUSTINE - ONE OF CATHOLICISM'S EARLY FATHERS [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 9: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]CALVIN'S REFORMATION INVOLVEMENT BEGINS / THE EUCHARIST [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 10: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]CALVIN'S DESPOTIC RULE IN GENEVA [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]ARTICLE 11: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]CALVIN'S FINAL YEARS / SUMMARY / CONCLUSION[/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]ADDITIONAL READING:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]*NEW* [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Q&A: The Hidden Gospel of Calvinism & Covenant Theology[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Q&A: Are Non-Calvinists "Freewillian" in their Theology?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Q&A: Are Calvinists Heading Back to Rome?
Q&A: Can Preterists be Saved?

Q&A: Are Non-Calvinists Pelegians?
The Calvinism of Rick Warren
John Piper's Regional Conference to be hosted by Rick Warren's Saddleback Church
Calvinism On The Move
Repentance and Lordship Salvation
Q&A: A Calvinist Defends The Legacy of Calvinism (Spanish version available here)

Q&A: Is Calvinism Heresy?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Calvinism's Different God, Jesus and Gospel
Following The Leaders[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Q&A:Calvinism
A Calvinist Objects To Brenda's Testimony[/SIZE]
Good point. Calvin would be horrified to see the hyper-Calvanism of today.
 

lesjude

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forrestcupp said:
Well I'm done arguing with you. But I do want to point out that you put words in my mouth. Not once did I say "church". I said "the Body of Christ". If you equate the Body of Christ with church membership, then that's your problem. The Body of Christ is made up of everyone who is born again. Why don't you do a little Bible study on the body of Christ, and maybe you'll understand what I'm talking about. But since you changed my words and twisted my meaning, nothing in your post that I quoted applies.

But I'm done arguing with you. I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to convince you that Titus 2:11-12 is true.
I do NOT equate the body of Christ with church membership

Do not confuse "born again" with being elect. The elect will continue in Bible faith, obedience, and the death of the self life enduring to the end. Some born again in the body of Christ will fulfill the parable of the sower and this:
1 John 2:19

New King James Version (NKJV)


19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Here is Titus 2:11-12


Titus 2:11-12
New King James Version (NKJV)


Trained by Saving Grace
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

The "us" refers to the born again members of the body of Christ. Sinners are unteachable. The "all" is a reference to the general preaching of the gospel to "all" men. The non elect sinners will reject it by their own free will which will be the basis of their judgement. The elect receive God's grace to receive Christ and be teachable. As I have said even being born again does not necessarily make a person elect.
 

forrestcupp

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lesjude said:
I do NOT equate the body of Christ with church membership

Do not confuse "born again" with being elect. The elect will continue in Bible faith, obedience, and the death of the self life enduring to the end. Some born again in the body of Christ will fulfill the parable of the sower and this:
1 John 2:19

New King James Version (NKJV)


19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Here is Titus 2:11-12
Titus 2:11-12
New King James Version (NKJV)


Trained by Saving Grace
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

The "us" refers to the born again members of the body of Christ. Sinners are unteachable. The "all" is a reference to the general preaching of the gospel to "all" men. The non elect sinners will reject it by their own free will which will be the basis of their judgement. The elect receive God's grace to receive Christ and be teachable. As I have said even being born again does not necessarily make a person elect.
Doh! I wasn't thinking. I love Titus 2:11-12, but I meant to say 1 Timothy 2:3-4

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So now that I'm starting to figure out some of your terminology, do you believe that anyone in the world can be "born again"?
 

lesjude

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Angelina said:
Of course God loves sinners. If he did not, we would not be saved today - Even in hindsight, we would never be able to work out how God chooses those who will be saved because his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts than our's. ^_^

Isaiah 55:9
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Shalom!
God does love His elect while they are sinners and gives them grace for salvation. The rest make a freewill choice to continue in sin. Believers can know by FAITH that their family will be saved based on Acts 16:31 and can know they will have fruit (people saved) that remains IF one is willing to pay the cost John 15:1-8.
A believer can have this also but there is a cost:


1 Corinthians 2:16
New King James Version (NKJV)


16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[a]But we have the mind of Christ.
 

Axehead

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lesjude said:
I do NOT equate the body of Christ with church membership

Do not confuse "born again" with being elect. The elect will continue in Bible faith, obedience, and the death of the self life enduring to the end. Some born again in the body of Christ will fulfill the parable of the sower and this:
1 John 2:19

New King James Version (NKJV)


19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Here is Titus 2:11-12
Titus 2:11-12
New King James Version (NKJV)


Trained by Saving Grace
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

The "us" refers to the born again members of the body of Christ. Sinners are unteachable. The "all" is a reference to the general preaching of the gospel to "all" men. The non elect sinners will reject it by their own free will which will be the basis of their judgement. The elect receive God's grace to receive Christ and be teachable. As I have said even being born again does not necessarily make a person elect.
yes, "us" does mean that. Thank you for agreeing that the "grace of God has appeared to all men".

Yes, we must endure till the end. I don't agree with one time salvation tickets.
 

lesjude

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forrestcupp said:
Doh! I wasn't thinking. I love Titus 2:11-12, but I meant to say 1 Timothy 2:3-4

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So now that I'm starting to figure out some of your terminology, do you believe that anyone in the world can be "born again"?
God does not contradict Himself. He knows ALL men will not be saved, only the elect. The context is prayer for all the unsaved, especially those in authority so believers can live their Godly convictions in peace. We do not know who the elect are but God gives His saints the privilege of praying for the many things that are needed to bring ALL the elect to Christ. All those prayers are predestined before time began.
What I do know is that being born again and the elect saints enduring to the end are not necessarily the same things which the Bible clearly teaches.
The Bible clearly says some are reprobate from the womb. Some are offspring of demons so they will not be born again.
 

KingJ

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lesjude said:
1. As I have said already no one but God knows who the elect are

2. Do you have the Acts 2:4 experience with the evidence of speaking in tongues?
1. I want to hear you say that God is partial. I want you to hear and read yourself conflicting 100% with James 2. Your English comprehension skills with scripture on God electing and destining is terrible as many have clearly pointed out.

2. Yes and every part of me rejects everything you believe and teach on healing and salvation.
 

forrestcupp

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lesjude said:
God does not contradict Himself. He knows ALL men will not be saved, only the elect. The context is prayer for all the unsaved, especially those in authority so believers can live their Godly convictions in peace. We do not know who the elect are but God gives His saints the privilege of praying for the many things that are needed to bring ALL the elect to Christ. All those prayers are predestined before time began.
What I do know is that being born again and the elect saints enduring to the end are not necessarily the same things which the Bible clearly teaches.
The Bible clearly says some are reprobate from the womb. Some are offspring of demons so they will not be born again.
So according to 1 Tim. 2:3-4, God desires ALL men to be saved. And you admit that God knows that ALL men will not be saved. So then logically, either God doesn't choose who is saved, or He's not very powerful because He wants them all to be saved, but they're not all saved. Remember, there's a big difference between God's knowing, and His making the choice for us.

And you've never answered my question. Obviously, you don't equate being born again with being elect. So do you believe that anyone in the world can be born again, or is it only the select few that God chooses that are capable of being born again?
 
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