As I understand it, Elohim is a plural word referring to all the gods in the spiritual realm, or more specifically to the God above all gods.
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Does the Bible contradict itself? - Reader Poll (and discussion)
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
What are you saying here? That Jesus changed His mind? That at one time He wasn't going to abolish it, but did so anyway by fulfilling it? Of so, please explain how fulfilling is a definition of abolishing. While you are at it, maybe explain why Jesus would abolish the sabbath just a short time after saying He was the Lord of the Sabbath, confirming that the Sabbath is the day of the Lord?
St. SteVen said:
There's a COMMON misquote. "... Jesus... did not come to abolish the law."
It wasn't "the law" that Jesus did not come to abolish. It was "the Law or the Prophets".
So, the books of the Law or the Prophets, not the law itself.
The fulfilling therefore was not of the law itself, but of the prophecies about Jesus
in the books of the Law and the books of the Prophets. (and the Psalms)
Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
COMPARE
Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled
that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Not only abolish the Sabbath, but the whole law. (but not the books of the Law, or the Prophets, or Psalms)
Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another. ...
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
2 Corinthians 3:6-8 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,
came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses
because of its glory, transitory though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
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There's a COMMON misquote. "... Jesus... did not come to abolish the law."
The misquote above stops short of the full statement, which completely changes the meaning.
It wasn't "the law" that Jesus did not come to abolish. It was "the Law or the Prophets".
So, the books of the Law or the Prophets, not the law itself.
The fulfilling therefore was not of the law itself, but of the prophecies about Jesus
in the books of the Law and the books of the Prophets. (and the Psalms)
Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
COMPARE
Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled
that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Jesus made himself an authority over the Pharisees by declaring he was Lord of the Sabbath.
Not only abolish the Sabbath, but the whole law. (but not the books of the Law, or the Prophets, or Psalms)
Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another. ...
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
2 Corinthians 3:6-8 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,
came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses
because of its glory, transitory though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
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New topic.
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Little know fact about Apollos.
Some quick Wiki research indicates that he knew only of the Baptism of John. (initially) Acts 18:24-26 NIV Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord...
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
Reminded me of this.
Choice of doctrine is driven by religious preconception - Spirituality is an individualized journey
Seems that biblical understanding has more to do with religious upbringing and environment than the content of the Bible. I imagine that a young Catholic learns that Mary is the Mother of God based on the statement of the angel, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” -...
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Does the Bible contradict itself?
Discussion questions:- Is it even possible that the Bible could contradict itself?
- Why would that be impossible?
- If it did contradict itself, would that be bad for the Bible?
- Does the Bible promise not to contradict itself?
- Would it be harmful to your faith if the Bible was found to be contradictory?
- Have you found some contradictions to discuss?
Atheists are not shy about discussing this subject. We could react to their claims.
contradictions in the bible list
1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
- God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
- Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)
- Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
- One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
- Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
- Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
- Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
- Three (I Chronicles 21:12)
- Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
- Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)
- Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8)
- Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9)
- Three months (2 Kings 24:8)
- Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9)
- Eight hundred (2 Samuel 23:8)
- Three hundred (I Chronicles 11: 11)
- After (2 Samuel 5 and 6)
- Before (I Chronicles 13 and 14)
- Two (Genesis 6:19, 20)
- Seven (Genesis 7:2). But despite this last instruction only two pairs went into the ark (Genesis 7:8-9)
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
The Amorites appear to have divided their gods into 3 categories - sky gods, earth gods, and water gods. Elohim are their sky gods - all the children of the chief sky god El.
Also, when a man became king of a Canaanite/Amorite city-state, it was customary to be adopted as a son of El. That makes "son of God" a kingly title.
The Israelites appear to have had beef with the Amorites. After the Exodus, they bee-lined it straight for the Amorites lands (but ran away). After their 40-year trek in the wilderness, they ALSO bee-lined it straight to Amorite lands (and took them). The first people the Israelites attacked after crossing Jordan... also Amorites.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I've come to divide the Bible into prophets and not-prophets. The not-prophets seem to contain a lot of contradictions.
Maybe they had it right. ???
That's curious.
Perhaps much of Israelite religion was based on Amorite religion?
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But can we say that the non-prophets were contradiction-free?
Anyway, I always thought that the church was a non-prophet organization.
I could be wrong. (I hope so)
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
How many in the list actually alter anything in the Bible’s overarching theme, or in relation to God’s purpose for mankind on this earth?….then we have translation issues as well as interpretation issues…..those who want to find fault will. Maybe they are all there for a reason? If as much effort was put into reading the Bible to obtain the good things it teaches, rather than wasting time trying to convince themselves otherwise….perhaps they would see the message, rather than the inconsequential flaws that they are searching for?
I answered a man who asked me similar questions once…..he knew a guy who professed to be a Christian but who lived a life that was contrary to everything the Bible said….he asked me what about him? And I said that God judges us individually, not by a label, but by our conduct and the condition of our heart…..it doesn’t matter what you call yourself, God will judge all of us on what we do, not just what we say….so if you are standing behind this guy on judgment day, seeking to offer the same excuses, be prepared to get the same judgment. (Matt 7:21-23)
Nobody is perfect, but then God already knows that.
That sounds like an admission that the contradictions are there.
Your claim being that the contradictions don't "actually alter anything in the Bible’s
overarching theme, or in relation to God’s purpose for mankind on this earth".
We are in agreement, if that is the point.
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The point is that Christians CLAIM there are NO contradictions. That is what is being challenged here.
No contradictions = zero
Which isn't true if you can find even one. (inerrancy) ???
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
If we exclude Moses, the OT prophets harmonize really well with each other. I can't really think of any contradictions between them off the top of my head, and I didn't find many skimming the list you posted.
I can't say the same for the Old Testament books of history. There are a ton of small differences between the parallel accounts in the Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles - a lot of your list falls into that category.
The histories and prophets are hostile to each other in major ways. The histories are centered on the kings and priesthood, and the prophets primarily prophecy AGAINST those same kings and priests, so... yeah.
Moses... doesn't get along with anyone. Not even himself. It seems to be the case that Moses has been heavily edited and redacted throughout history, so we're probably attributing a lot to him that he didn't even write (cough Leviticus cough). A lot of the theological differences between Moses and... everyone... can be explained away if we regard Moses' purpose as being the administration of PUNISHMENT on Israel for their faithlessness, rather than regarding him as a beneficent leader. Yikes.
The synoptic gospels have a lot of small contradictions, but they mostly fall into the category of "these are the sorts of minor differences we would expect from multiple witnesses of the same event." There is one major difference - the two genealogies of Jesus are just completely different.
The rest of the New Testament agrees with itself fairly well, IMO. Except...
Absolutely nobody can agree on just exactly what Paul is saying virtually in any of his books. Peter said he was hard to understand and that the unstable wrested Paul's words in the New Testament, and not much has changed since then.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What are called contradictions can often be reconciled by referring to other Scripture….but who wants to go point by point when in the big picture, all those ‘differences in reporting’ don’t really alter anything important?
Its nit picking for those who want excuses to find fault. They will find them….and God will let them….
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Agree.
This is why I make the claim about Bibliolatry.
Many Christians worship a book more than its author. IMO
Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author
I have encountered some that I thought had fallen into this trap. I asked them, "What would become of your faith if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day?" The guilty are left mostly speechless. Or, alternatively VERY angry. How come? To be clear, I love the Bible and use...
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Hiddenthings
Member
LOL the first is easily explainable
Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
- God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
- Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)
I found this funny that the first list contradiction is no contradiction at all.
I won't bother going through the list as no doubt there are many more errors
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
There is a reason why the “Author” wrote the book…..with selected secretaries over a vast period of time whilst still maintaining internal harmony. It’s the only book that takes us from creation down to the kings of the present day…..and on into a thousand years of the future.Agree.
This is why I make the claim about Bibliolatry.
Many Christians worship a book more than its author. IMO
Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author
I have encountered some that I thought had fallen into this trap. I asked them, "What would become of your faith if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day?" The guilty are left mostly speechless. Or, alternatively VERY angry. How come? To be clear, I love the Bible and use...
Every prophesy was fulfilled, and every king from the days of ancient Babylon, documented and accounted for in the detailed prophetic writings of Daniel……who told us that in the days of the present world rulers, God’s Kingdom would crush corrupted human rulership out of existence, and replace them as man’s only government. (Dan 2:44) The Lord’s Prayer, fulfilled.
The written word maintains its accuracy way more than oral traditions, especially when you take into consideration how much effort there has been to wipe it out of existence over the centuries.…even by the church itself, keeping it hidden away and inaccessible to the common people. It allowed them to get away with murder…..literally.
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