Dogmatic Certainties

[Nancy]

going to sleep but yours and @stunnedbygrace post brought up a question I have about lack of faith or “without faith it is impossible to please God.” what happens if a persons cognitive decline makes it so they no longer walk in faith. Where faith is no longer on their radar or building it or maintaining it but it has all deteriorated along with everything else...maybe even forgetting who family is or the Lord...what then?

I sure hear that VIJ, I have a very close friend of many years who is going through dementia and, I KNOW she would not be saying and doing some of the things she does if she were in her right mind, she was a very strong Christian for a very long time and loved the Lord like no other I know. Can't see God punishing someone who has these kinds of issues...I sure hope not!

 

[amadeus]

i don't think a lack of faith begets a different outcome for us than it did for them either. But it appears to me as if marks thinks so somehow.

And it appears to me that he also thinks because we are given an earnest deposit of the Holy Spirit, we cannot fail in faith whereas Israel in the desert could, and did, fail.

So it looks to me (as I think marks sees it) like God expected faith from them and the same trust from us but did not give them what appears to be a failsafe advantage, which is all based on WHEN they were born and lived versus when marks was born and lives.

So Israel trusted God (had faith), because obviously they would have refused to step out under the wall of water if they didnt. But then right after, they refused to remain in trust, over and over again, for 40 years. But, despite the warnings to see that our own hearts don t become unbelieving as theirs did, marks thinks it is impossible.

And yet, a cursory glance at oneself shows that He also saved us and we
then proceed to worry over provision just exactly as Israel did. If the economy tanks and our retirement is wiped out, if we have an unexpected big expense or if we lose our job, we worry. How is that any different?

No, no failsafe advantages here!

As men look at it, it may seem that we have an advantage because we have been given so much more. But... with the more given, more is required. God is always fair in a way that many men cannot understand. This is what the scriptures mean when they say He is not respecter of persons.

Americans and all the other western... [supposedly] ...civilized nations with so many advantages don't realize that God requires a return for those advantages to make them [us] equal in His eyes to those seeming given so much less. We are the rich men here in U.S. of A. and similar nations in material goods and so many other advantages. We are the rich men compared to camels trying to squeeze through the eye of a needle. Would we perhaps have been better to be a follower of Christ in a nation under Sharia where following Him will likely result in physical suffering and death? Would we have been better to be a follower of Christ in a nation under extreme poverty like Bangladesh or Haiti where the suffering and death is also not unlikely?

People like the idea that they can make it into God's kingdom with no bruises and no suffering because Jesus did the whole thing for us. They forget or ignore or fail to understand:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." Matt 5:11

"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me" John 15:20-21

Jesus brought us Life, but that Life is not to found where too many people are looking! They are blind like Philip when he asked Jesus:

"...Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us." John 14:8

And then let us hear Jesus' response:

"...Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:9

Instead of seeing Jesus and the Father, too many people see only the blessings and the rewards promised. Where is the love for God and for people?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Superb!

 

[marks]

The outcome of faith for each...? It says they did not unite the good news preached to them with faith. So their outcome was not based on trust.

Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

My thinking on this is that the gospel is profitable if the one hearing believes it, but not if it is not believed. So that it is the faith or lack of faith that determines the result of hearing the Gospel.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

Protestantism is based on dialectic reasoning

which dialectic tho

 

[bbyrd009]

Praise God! - For certainties

"That their hearts might be comforted..."
sorry

 

[bbyrd009]

We are saved by the kindness of God, through trust (by grace, through faith). If you don't take any lack of trust in yourself seriously, as the potential hazard it is, then I think you don't understand the "through faith" part of your saving.

work to make your calling and election sure eh

faith=work, maybe

 

[bbyrd009]

going to sleep but yours and @stunnedbygrace post brought up a question I have about lack of faith or “without faith it is impossible to please God.” what happens if a persons cognitive decline makes it so they no longer walk in faith. Where faith is no longer on their radar or building it or maintaining it but it has all deteriorated along with everything else...maybe even forgetting who family is or the Lord...what then?

i would take that as a sign tbh

 

[bbyrd009]

i don't think a lack of faith begets a different outcome for us than it did for them either. But it appears to me as if marks thinks so somehow.

And it appears to me that he also thinks because we are given an earnest deposit of the Holy Spirit, we cannot fail in faith whereas Israel in the desert could, and did, fail.

So it looks to me (as I think marks sees it) like God expected faith from them and the same trust from us but did not give them what appears to be a failsafe advantage, which is all based on WHEN they were born and lived versus when marks was born and lives.

So Israel trusted God (had faith), because obviously they would have refused to step out under the wall of water if they didnt. But then right after, they refused to remain in trust, over and over again, for 40 years. But, despite the warnings to see that our own hearts don t become unbelieving as theirs did, marks thinks it is impossible.

And yet, a cursory glance at oneself shows that He also saved us and we
then proceed to worry over provision just exactly as Israel did. If the economy tanks and our retirement is wiped out, if we have an unexpected big expense or if we lose our job, we worry. How is that any different?

word

 

[Windmillcharge]

Maybe you didn't read where I said that Jesus is there in our circles....but He is wanting us to enter into the land of promise. Your attitude suggests that you don't even consider that as a possibility.

IAs I am an alien in this world with a cityzenship in heaven I don't know what world you are talking about.

 

[marks]

So it looks to me (as I think marks sees it) like God expected faith from them and the same trust from us but did not give them what appears to be a failsafe advantage, which is all based on WHEN they were born and lived versus when marks was born and lives.

Remember, there were different covenants given, and they are not the same, and those born during one covenant are under a different covenant than those born under another.

I don't mean to sound elementary, only to remind that there are in fact differences.

And being born again is something we can be that they could not. Being united permanently to the Holy Spirit is something we can have, but they could not.

The Holy Spirit was not poured out on all flesh until Jesus returned to heaven. This He did, at that time, and it resulted in a very different life for those who believe.

Their sins were covered, and our are sent away, removed. They had to continually offer sacrifices, we do not, Jesus offered Himself, once, for all.

When we believe, we are given the earnest of the Holy Spirit, an expression that only makes sense if you understand it according to what it is, He stays with us.

When you give an earnest, or a deposit, you are staking a claim by paying a portion of the price. That the Holy Spirit is in earnest of our inheritance, this means that we've already received a portion of it as proof that the rest is coming.

If the gift of the Holy Spirit were revocable, that voids the whole idea of Him being an earnest of our inheritance. Even David asked that the Holy Spirit not be taken from Him, but to us Jesus says, I will never leave you, nor forsake you.

The first covenant had a fatal problem, not that there was a problem with the covenant, the problem was with us. The new covenant is a better covenant build on better promises. Promises that our life will be His life in us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So, I was trying to get at why it appears to me that marks thinks a lack of faith in a person thousands of years ago gets them destruction but a lack of faith in a person now begets a different outcome.

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

The branch not in Christ is gathered up and burned.

The branch in Christ that bears no fruit the Father carries away.

The branch in Christ that bears fruit is purged, cleansed, so it will bear more fruit. I see this being the person who believes, but who has lapses of faith.

The times of actively trusting God are fruitful times, and the purging is the removal of those things that are not of faith. That these are purged to produce more fruit tells us both that it is needed, and that this does not disqualify the branches.

Psalm 80
8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.
9 Thou preparedst room before it, and didst cause it to take deep root, and it filled the land.

Israel was God's vine. God's vintage was through Israel, and through the covenant made at Sinai. But Jesus came, the True Vine, with a new covenant.

Much love!

 

[aspen]

which dialectic tho

dialectic reasoning

 

[amadeus]

Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

My thinking on this is that the gospel is profitable if the one hearing believes it, but not if it is not believed. So that it is the faith or lack of faith that determines the result of hearing the Gospel.

Much love!

But, how does one hear? Are there not many people who have heard some person preaching and teaching, but have not heard God in it? Is that not where Philip was when he asked his question in John 14:8? What was he missing?

 

[Enoch111]

Protestantism is based on dialectic reasoning

Not really. The Five Solas of the Reformation (which really represent Protestantism) have nothing to do with dialectical reasoning (a vain philosophical concept). But they have everything to do with THE DOGMATIC CERTAINTIES OF THE GOSPEL (which are being opposed by some).

• Sola Fide, by faith alone.
• Sola Scriptura, by Scripture alone.
• Solus Christus, through Christ alone.
• Sola Gratia, by grace alone.
• Soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone.

Dialectics is related to Marxism, not Bible Christianity.

 

[bbyrd009]

dialectic reasoning

ah well "dialectic" is the term for the reasoning "conversation" that is had, but there are diff dialectics, hegelian, aristotlean i guess, naive dialectic, etc?

 

[amadeus]

going to sleep but yours and @stunnedbygrace post brought up a question I have about lack of faith or “without faith it is impossible to please God.” what happens if a persons cognitive decline makes it so they no longer walk in faith. Where faith is no longer on their radar or building it or maintaining it but it has all deteriorated along with everything else...maybe even forgetting who family is or the Lord...what then?

Stunnedbygrace said:
Ah, things like Alzheimer's and dementia, if I'm not mistaken, have to do with misfolding proteins in the brain. A man doesn't do that to his own brain. If he is then incapable, mentally, of remembering and functioning as he did before, I can't see God then condemning him for it. He didn't lose his faith, or fail in faith, his brain just began to give out. And, in fact, when men first receive a diagnosis like that, they pull closer to God than they had been a lot of the time.

I went through this with my dad. He got Parkinson's. He lingered in a greatly reduced state. I wondered why God didn't just take him, and also began to wonder if He might let someone who is His linger that way for years for the benefit of others.

Amen!

God always knows exactly where we are. He knows exactly what we have and what we are doing with it. When a person starts to decline as you suggest where was he when the decline started? Also why did he begin his decline? Does not God also know the answer to this question?

The "much is given", much is required" always, I believe, applies. Because a person seems to be down compared to what we were seeing before, does not mean he is out. God sees what we cannot see. God knows what we cannot know.

God holds an adult who has developed normally more responsible for his actions or inactions than He would hold a normal child who hasn't yet reached his 10th birthday. People sometimes speak of an age of accountability with regard to children on their way to adulthood. If God considers that about a child, why would He treat an adult differently whose ability to do things has diminished simply because the fleshly parts are wearing out?

Consider the "much is given" and "much is required" verse [Luke 12:48] along with the following verse:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." I Cor 10:13

What we "are able" may also have diminished, so is God not aware of it and taking it into account as well?

Consider also the question Nicodemus asked Jesus:

"... How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" John 3:4

Perhaps a man cannot physically return to his mother's womb, but he certainly can move back toward where he was as a child in his ability to do things, including making proper decisions. Is faith ever based on how inherently smart/intelligent a person is?

God knows all of these answers. If we are trusting always in Him, will not God provide every answer needed? What do we need to know? God knows that as well. Do we lose our own confidence in God because He does not tell us what is happening in another person?

"Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me." John 21:21-22

 

[amadeus]

Remember, there were different covenants given, and they are not the same, and those born during one covenant are under a different covenant than those born under another.

I don't mean to sound elementary, only to remind that there are in fact differences.

And being born again is something we can be that they could not. Being united permanently to the Holy Spirit is something we can have, but they could not.

So then indeed you are confirming correctly that we have been given more than they. God has given us more and therefore requires more from us. If we do not do more, why should our reward be more or better than theirs? God does expect us to do work as we are led by and empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so. When in our work, with availability of the Holy Spirit in us, we accomplish no more than they accomplished with less to work with, why should we expect a lesser punishment?

The Holy Spirit was not poured out on all flesh until Jesus returned to heaven. This He did, at that time, and it resulted in a very different life for those who believe.

Yes, the Holy Spirit was poured out, but if we could not quench the Spirit, why did the Apostle Paul warn us not to quench the Spirit? [I Thess 5:19]

Their sins were covered, and our are sent away, removed. They had to continually offer sacrifices, we do not, Jesus offered Himself, once, for all.

When a person receives the Holy Spirit, he need never again sin, but have you known any person who did not? When we do sin again, if it was all wiped away by the one sacrifice of Jesus, why would we now need an advocate with the Father? [I John 2:1]

When we believe, we are given the earnest of the Holy Spirit, an expression that only makes sense if you understand it according to what it is, He stays with us.

When you give an earnest, or a deposit, you are staking a claim by paying a portion of the price. That the Holy Spirit is in earnest of our inheritance, this means that we've already received a portion of it as proof that the rest is coming.

When a person pays earnest money on a home sales contract it holds the home for them until they can finalize the contract with cash in full or an approved loan. If for any reason they fail to finalize the loan they lose their earnest money.

When we sold our home a number of years ago, we had someone make an offer which we accepted. They put up their earnest money which prevented us selling the home for a specified period of time to anyone else until the finalized a loan or came up with the cash. We could not sell the home to anyone else during that time period. Instead of finalizing the contract, the buyers changed their mind and wanted their money back. We lost the time during which another interested buyer could have made us another offer and they lost their earnest money. The home would have been theirs, but they decided differently. It is the same way with God. He won't take our right to salvation away from us, but as foolish as it might be, we do always have the right to back away from Him. No one can take us out of His hand, but we can climb down and walk away at any time, while there is time.

If the gift of the Holy Spirit were revocable, that voids the whole idea of Him being an earnest of our inheritance. Even David asked that the Holy Spirit not be taken from Him, but to us Jesus says, I will never leave you, nor forsake you.

The gift is ours, but what we do with it is always our decision. Jesus will not leave us, but we can always leave Him and too many do. Each time we quench the Holy Spirit in that we are leaving Him.

The first covenant had a fatal problem, not that there was a problem with the covenant, the problem was with us. The new covenant is a better covenant build on better promises. Promises that our life will be His life in us.

Much love!

The new covenant is a better covenant, but we, mankind that is, are like we always have been: tempted, fickle and fallible. God has given us more than those under the old covenant, but He expects more from us than He expected from them. The only ones of us who are able to enter in and partake of the Tree of Life are those who overcome all the way to the end of their course.

 

[Episkopos]

IAs I am an alien in this world with a cityzenship in heaven I don't know what world you are talking about.

If you are an alien in this world....what world are you native to? If one day you think you will emigrate from this world to be a future citizen of heaven...doesn't that still make you of this earth in the meantime?

Do you realize you can walk in the Spirit and actually be aware of heaven now? It is the kingdom of heaven. How do you seek that place first while still in this life?

 

[amadeus]

What we can do will never in a million years add up to what Jesus did for us, or to what is required of us.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." John 14:12

Of course it you don't believe what Jesus said, then you cannot. According to your faith is how it works! If our faith falls short, we are able to ask and receive what is needed.

It's not about trying to figure out and balance our applicable levels of obligation, it's about rejoicing in our union with God, being filled with His love, overflowing in love for others, as the Holy Spirit pours out of us the works of love which He does through us.

No, we do not need, as you say, to figure it out. What we need to do is surrender and continue to surrender to Him for as long as time remains to us. We are still our own man able to make our own decisions. The only decision of our own alone that always works in the right direction is agreeing with Jesus when He said:

"...not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

God isn't waiting to see if we measure up to His standard, we never did, and on our own we never will.

The standard is His standard. It is the impossible standard which can only be met by giving Him back the reins He gave to us at the beginning. Adam and Eve took advantage of that and led themselves into trouble. Having received the Holy Spirit, we now have the same choice they did, to obey God or to take own reins and follow our own head instead of Him. Jesus is to be our Head, but it is always our decision to let Him be our Head or not!

It is not our force of will that overcomes. It is not our strength and might. Our most passionate desire is only that, a man's feeling. It is by faith alone in Christ alone that we stand in His grace. His grace causes us to stand as we trust in Him. As we trust in Him, He lives through us. And be it to you according to your faith.

As I have already said, it is an impossible thing for us alone. What is required on our part is a continously repeated surrender to Him. If we cannot even surrender alone, we can also ask Him for help us do that:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7
This asking will always work, if we ask according to His will rather than our own. To otherwise is to ask amiss [see James 4:3]