Domestic Violence

[JohnDB]

What if, say, a woman is being beaten, subjected to abusive or violent or degrading sex acts, or offered/given to other men? What if they both were believers at marriage, but eventually the husband falls away and there is no chance of marriage counseling?
What I am looking for is Biblical/Scriptural reference. What does God say?

Again...
This goes back to Matthew 19...and what Paul said.

If a person cooerses another person into some kind of sinful behavior and/or has to endure abuse...the abused needs to leave the relationship with a clear conscience because of the abuse. The abuser is charged (by God) with all the sins of the abused. Albeit adultery and etc.

So...where she might feel guilty of being forced into such situations and may have physically "enjoyed" such, she really holds no true guilt in the matter and needs to get out... even if it's with nothing more than the clothing on her.

 

[JohnDB]

Yes, and I'm considering the difference. So still, a man can divorce his wife if she was not a virgin when he married her. But if a man had committed fornication prior to marriage, she has no right to divorce ....right?

If she was sold as a virgin (bride price) then she had better be one.

There was no such compunction on men. He might already have a wife.

 

[TLHKAJ]

And yet ...even in case of fornication, there is a distinction between putting away and divorcement. If a man put his wife away bc of fornication, he was to give her a bill of divorcement.

 

[TLHKAJ]

If she was sold as a virgin (bride price) then she had better be one.

There was no such compunction on men. He might already have a wife.

Polygamy was not God's perfect original plan. It is even spoken against in the NT... "husbands of one wife."

Could you address post #7?
EDIT: I saw your post just now... sorry about that.

 

[JohnDB]

Polygamy was not God's perfect original plan. It is even spoken against in the NT... "husbands of one wife."

Could you address post #7?

I did in post #21.

What part are you having a difficult time understanding?

 

[TLHKAJ]

Again...
This goes back to Matthew 19...and what Paul said.

If a person cooerses another person into some kind of sinful behavior and/or has to endure abuse...the abused needs to leave the relationship with a clear conscience because of the abuse. The abuser is charged (by God) with all the sins of the abused. Albeit adultery and etc.

So...where she might feel guilty of being forced into such situations and may have physically "enjoyed" such, she really holds no true guilt in the matter and needs to get out... even if it's with nothing more than the clothing on her.

Could you quote the exact scripture reference you base this on? Matthew 19 doesn't seem to address DV at all and Paul is not the speaker there.

 

[TLHKAJ]

I did in post #21.

What part are you having a difficult time understanding?

I am on mobile and I didn't see where you responded to that post. I did see it afterward. I'm still not clear on the exact clear Biblical stance supporting a woman leaving in that case.

 

[farouk]

Yes, and I'm considering the difference. So still, a man can divorce his wife if she was not a virgin when he married her. But if a man had committed fornication prior to marriage, she has no right to divorce ....right?

Well, in the situation you are considering, if the man and the woman are both real Christians, then whether one or both of them have "a past" needs to be clear in the minds of both, and both need to be in a state of heart peace and forgiveness to the effect that both are now walking with the Lord.

 

[farouk]

If she was sold as a virgin (bride price) then she had better be one.

There was no such compunction on men. He might already have a wife.

Not sure what you mean...

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP only. in a none Domestic Violence a christain couple can over come any lesse problem, (not getting into any details). and here is the scripture for those couples. 1 Corinthians 7:10 "And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:"1 Corinthians 7:11 "But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife." this if both have the Holy Ghost in them both.

Now the couple that may have Domestic Violence. 1 Corinthians 7:12 "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away."
1 Corinthians 7:13 "And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him."
1 Corinthians 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy."
1 Corinthians 7:15 "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace." (with Domestic Violence there is no peace)
1 Corinthians 7:16 "For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?"

NOW can a woman divorce her husband? yes. supportive scripture, Mark 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery". WHY, just as with the man, if one don't give a bill of divorcement, and just put away/Separate, yes she or he commits adultery. because divorce as with marriage is a two step process.

PICJAG.
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[TLHKAJ]

Well, in the situation you are considering, if the man and the woman are both real Christians, then whether one or both of them have "a past" needs to be clear in the minds of both, and both need to be in a state of heart peace and forgiveness to the effect that both are now walking with the Lord.

This is true. And it really is a completely different issue from DV and abuse.

 

[farouk]

This is true. And it really is a completely different issue from DV and abuse.

Abuse is a huge problem indeed; what I would also say is that instant solutions advocated by secularists outside the fear of God do not take into account of the resources of the grace of God.

 

[JohnDB]

Polygamy was not God's perfect original plan. It is even spoken against in the NT... "husbands of one wife."

Yes...
This is not exactly what is true.
Moses had two wives. So did Abraham after Sarah died.

The passage you are referencing is in 2Timothy. "Husband of one wife" is part of a personal pastoral letter.

Paul had a personal teacher/student relationship with Timothy. Much more of a casual relationship than he would with a whole church group.

So where Romans and Greeks would have a publicly recognized wife they also had a publicly recognized concubine/consort/girlfriend.
This consort didn't have any legal recourse as a non wife in the Roman Empire...but she was a favored individual by the man. She might even share/live in the same house as the wife did. But if it was financially feasible it was considered prudent for him to find her separate housing. (Wives didn't like being not the favored one but there was nothing they could do in Roman society)
Romans only had one wife though... anything more was considered "rude" or "barbaric" behavior. I'm not exactly sure how that ideal came about.

And so when Paul was writing to Timothy, Paul, being raised Jewish, thought to jab at the Roman sense of self-righteousness that Romans had when looking down on Jewish norms of polygamy and declared the consorts as wives... meaning that he didn't want the emerging church to be run by the rich elites of the community.

Today the Baptists look at this passage to declare that anyone who has been divorced cannot be a deacon. (Totally missing the point)

 

[TLHKAJ]

According to Strong's Concordance, putting away is the same thing as divorcing.
_____
G630 Greek: ἀπολύω Transliteration: apolýō Pronunciation: ap-ol-oo'-o ---------- Description: from ἀπό(G575) and λύω(G3089); to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon or (specially) divorce:

Translation: (let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty. KJV usage: release (17x), put away (14x), send away (13x), let go (13x), set at liberty (2x), let depart (2x), dismiss (2x), misc (6x).

 

[TLHKAJ]

Yes...
This is not exactly what is true.
Moses had two wives. So did Abraham after Sarah died.

The passage you are referencing is in 2Timothy. "Husband of one wife" is part of a personal pastoral letter.

Paul had a personal teacher/student relationship with Timothy. Much more of a casual relationship than he would with a whole church group.

So where Romans and Greeks would have a publicly recognized wife they also had a publicly recognized concubine/consort/girlfriend.
This consort didn't have any legal recourse as a non wife in the Roman Empire...but she was a favored individual by the man. She might even share/live in the same house as the wife did. But if it was financially feasible it was considered prudent for him to find her separate housing. (Wives didn't like being not the favored one but there was nothing they could do in Roman society)
Romans only had one wife though... anything more was considered "rude" or "barbaric" behavior. I'm not exactly sure how that ideal came about.

And so when Paul was writing to Timothy, Paul, being raised Jewish, thought to jab at the Roman sense of self-righteousness that Romans had when looking down on Jewish norms of polygamy and declared the consorts as wives... meaning that he didn't want the emerging church to be run by the rich elites of the community.

Today the Baptists look at this passage to declare that anyone who has been divorced cannot be a deacon. (Totally missing the point)

If it were God's perfect and original plan, why did he only create one woman for Adam? And why did God not remove several ribs and create more women than just Eve? And why did God start over after the flood with Noah and his sons and each having one wife? Why does Scripture say that a man should leave father and mother and cleave to his wife ...instead of "wives"? It was permitted bc man is fallen. But it isn't a Biblical mandate for men to multiply wives to themselves.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Abuse is a huge problem indeed; what I would also say is that instant solutions advocated by secularists outside the fear of God do not take into account of the resources of the grace of God.

So you're saying the woman should offer grace and remain in an abusive or even dangerous situation.

 

[JohnDB]

Could you quote the exact scripture reference you base this on? Matthew 19 doesn't seem to address DV at all and Paul is not the speaker there.

Sorry...try Matthew 5:32

 

[farouk]

So you're saying the woman should offer grace and remain in an abusive or even dangerous situation.

Like I said, 1 Cor. 7. does seem to anticipate extreme situations '...but and if she depart....' . In the end grace comes from God.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Like I said, 1 Cor. 7. does seem to anticipate extreme situations '...but and if she depart....' . In the end grace comes from God.

So a conclusion which I agree with is that she may leave, but not remarry. Of course, forgiveness toward him should be offered...but forgiveness and reconciliation are two separate things. It would be a risk for her to even test going back if he is given to violence.

Now, if he is not a believer, and he then divorces her ...she is released, correct?

 

[farouk]

So a conclusion which I agree with is that she may leave, but not remarry. Of course, forgiveness toward him should be offered...but forgiveness and reconciliation are two separate things. It would be a risk for her to even test going back if he is given to violence.

The grace of God may intervene so that his heart is changed.

Now, if he is not a believer, and he then divorces her ...she is released, correct?

Romans 7.3 has a comment.