Domestic Violence

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JohnDB

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If it were God's perfect and original plan, why did he only create one woman for Adam? And why did God not remove several ribs and create more women than just Eve? And why did God start over after the flood with Noah and his sons and each having one wife? Why does Scripture say that a man should leave father and mother and cleave to his wife ...instead of "wives"? It was permitted bc man is fallen. But it isn't a Biblical mandate for men to multiply wives to themselves.

I'm not suggesting that plural marriage is preferred...just not prohibited.

Mankind has a horrible history of being able to handle relationships properly to begin with...and in recent years polygamy is almost synonymous with abuse because of the way things have changed.

There is a passage where if your brother died you had to marry his wife (regardless of already being married) to produce children in his name. It's a concept referred to as the Kinsman Redeemer...it's a central theme in the book of Ruth and one story in Genesis referencing Judah and Tamar where everyone refused to give her a baby.

It's basically that we should be focused on our individual part in providing what is needed for another. An act of "loving kindness". Not perversion or self service...but giving and kindness that is needed.
 

TLHKAJ

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The grace of God may intervene so that his heart is changed.

Romans 7.3 has a comment.
Yes, I agree. Grace and forgiveness should always be the first response. But how would one know if he is changed without going back to him? What looks like a reconciliation might be manipulation and setup for worse.
 

JohnDB

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Not sure what you mean...
Men never had to be sold into marriage...

Women were considered one half step above property...

Men never had to be virgins...
Women didn't either unless they were sold as a virgin daughter by her father.
 

farouk

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Yes, I agree. Grace and forgiveness should always be the first response. But how would one know if he is changed without going back to him? What looks like a reconciliation might be manipulation and setup for worse.
1 Cor. 7 does also expand on the context of '...but and if she depart...'

I don't think that it's for Christians as it were to start a stopwatch, so to speak, on a time when God supposedly must supply answers and changes. Rather, in a wide variety of personal situations, He day by day supplies His grace with hugely difficult situations.
 
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farouk

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Men never had to be sold into marriage...

Women were considered one half step above property...

Men never had to be virgins...
Women didn't either unless they were sold as a virgin daughter by her father.
You are not speaking about people living as NT Christians now.
 

JohnDB

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I don't see so called plural marriage in a local church context in the NT.
Greeks and Romans didn't practice formalized polygamy.
Only Jews did.
Romans looked at Jewish polygamy as disgusting and were rather self righteous about it.

Romans had the same practice by wealthy members of their society by having Consorts. Although they didn't see the parallel. (Cognitive dissonance)

Paul breached that in his letter to Timothy.
 

farouk

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Greeks and Romans didn't practice formalized polygamy.
Only Jews did.
Romans looked at Jewish polygamy as disgusting and were rather self righteous about it.

Romans had the same practice by wealthy members of their society by having Consorts. Although they didn't see the parallel. (Cognitive dissonance)

Paul breached that in his letter to Timothy.
I don't frankly see a polygamous outlook for example in Hosea, where the prophet is encourage to be patient and to cleave to his one beloved, true wife Gomer.
 
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JohnDB

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You are not speaking about people living as NT Christians now.
Which people group?

You have several ethnic and anthropological groups in the NT mentioned...

Jewish society was only one of dozens. Modern day Turkey was one group, Persia was another and Europe another and africa yet more diverse groups.
 

JohnDB

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I don't frankly see a polygamous outlook for example in Hosea, where the prophet is encourage to be patient and to cleave to his one beloved, true wife Gomer.
The Context isn't congruent here.
 

amadeus

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What if, say, a woman is being beaten, subjected to abusive or violent or degrading sex acts, or offered/given to other men? What if they both were believers at marriage, but eventually the husband falls away and there is no chance of marriage counseling?
What I am looking for is Biblical/Scriptural reference. What does God say?
In the NT [New Testament] we get perhaps closer without so many types and shadows to what God really wants from us, be we physical men or women. As Jesus, I believe, made clear, a man [or woman] may commit adultery in his heart even if physically he never touches anyone but his spouse. The abuser you describe is undoubtedly the instigator of his wife's difficulty. To me that would make him the one who committed fornication [which includes adultery within marriage] in his heart by what he coerced his wife to do. This is then included in the one situation where Jesus allows for divorce.

"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." Matt 5:32

What is needed on the part of both spouses in a good marriage is the right Spirit [the Holy Spirit]. In what I wrote above I considered that but, people will use and/or twist the written scriptures to accomplish wrong things. We need to have God's heart in what we do rather than simply following the desire of our own carnal hearts. We know that every one who is not already a complete overcomer like Jesus has missed a step or two on this.

Then again in a marriage in which the couple have really been serving God together and one of them falls away from God, has that one not changed the relationship into one of unequal yoking? If this really has occurred then I see the options of the one still faithful to God here for the other one is now an unbeliever or an infidel:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" II Cor 6:14-15

Always however consider the heart, which is what God always does.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts" Prov 21:2

Having said all of that then consider further: Can we have the mind of God in this? Here is a real testimony, which I shared on this forum some time back:

Back in the 1970's when our two children were quite small, my wife and I regularly picked up a sister in the Lord and gave her a ride to church meetings. She was a funny little lady and became a very good friend of my wife's. What I did not know and probably never would have learned, had not my wife told me, was that the sister in question was married to a man who drank heavily, cursed and physically beat her routinely in his efforts to get her to stop attending church and serving God. This had been going on for a few years before we met her. She refused to leave him and she refused to call the law against him.

When we followed the Lord to another place we lost touch with that sister and her very sad situation. Some years later we had occasion to return to that community and my wife recontacted her. After more than 25 years of marriage in that very abusive situation, the sister's trust in God had been rewarded. Her husband had gone to church and repented turning his life over to God. He became the hardest worker and best witness for God in the assembly.

I would not recommend such a pathway for anyone, but we can see that God still does miracles for those who trust Him. We are never wrong to trust God. The decision remains for the one in the situation...

If a person decides to divorce on the basis of these verses and something similar to what I wrote here, she may need be prepared to endure the intolerance of some who name themselves Christian as they attack [persecute] her. Unfortunately some holding ministerial positions may also indulge in such name calling and finger pointing.
 
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farouk

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Which people group?

You have several ethnic and anthropological groups in the NT mentioned...

Jewish society was only one of dozens. Modern day Turkey was one group, Persia was another and Europe another and africa yet more diverse groups.
I would rather not talk about anthropology here; I was referring to NT principles and NT Christians.
 
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JohnDB

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Yes, I agree. Grace and forgiveness should always be the first response. But how would one know if he is changed without going back to him? What looks like a reconciliation might be manipulation and setup for worse.

We are human...
We are NOT God.

We may forgive, but that by no means doesn't intend that our actions should not have consequences. Of course she shouldn't go back.
 

JohnDB

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I would rather not talk about anthropology here; I was referring to NT principles and NY Christians.
Context is king in scriptures...

You cannot isolate a scripture without having the proper context....EVER.

Where the exact statements might not be relevant the principles contained in context are always relevant.
 

farouk

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Context is king in scriptures...

You cannot isolate a scripture without having the proper context....EVER.

Where the exact statements might not be relevant the principles contained in context are always relevant.
Beyond context, I sense that you are wanting in any case to promote divorce and remarriage: this might not be your stated intent but it seems that the balance of your contributions points in this direction.
 
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amigo de christo

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Ahhhh
Yes, she could take a copy of the ketubah to a Rabbi...if she was living in the home. But she might find herself "put away" as well.

You have to remember that polygamy was mandated in some cases and desired in others. A wife's pecking order was determined by her husband. Polygamy wasn't considered abuse.

If she burned the cheapest dinner...it was considered grounds for divorce by some Rabbi. Only adultery was grounds for other Rabbi. (Same thing as here in America today)

And that exact question was put to Jesus in Matthew 19.

Jesus addressed the abusive situation surrounding the Put Away Wives.

People were fairly certain but didn't necessarily have proof of which women were put away wives. A put away wife could not marry or else she would be convicted of adultery and stoned (John 8)
So men would take advantage of the situation and had what was tantamount to wife swapping and divorce...marriage parlors where a person could get married for a few hours and divorced...or a few weeks.
It was a bit of a scandal.

But the true gist of what Jesus stated was that if a husband did not BEHAVE like a God fearing person then it's basically permitted. Jesus also gave a very, very strong caution about knowing exactly who it was that you were going to marry as well.

Remarriage statistics aren't really good.
Only 34% of second marriages are successful and 25% of third...the stats on successive marriages only gets worse.

Behavior of a husband or wife was the gist of what He said...faith wasn't...this was later explained more by Paul in one of his letters about wives being reconciled with their husbands.. Now it is interesting to note that Greek/Roman men often had a consort or girlfriend. (A publicly recognized relationship but not a spouse) So in his letter to Corinthian Wives on this subject it's rather interesting...it's later discussed in Timothy that men with Consort's were considered by Paul to be polygamists by referencing the consort as a wife which to Greeks was a somewhat insulting fashion.
not exactly my friend . JESUS said save for fornication .
Even abigail remained with her husband nabal who was a man of belial , TILL HE DIED . after that she became the wife of david .
and not before . save for fornication or death . oh you can seperate . but remarriage is not permissible
lest the spouse died or fornication was involved . Be encouraged .
 
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amigo de christo

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What if, say, a woman is being beaten, subjected to abusive or violent or degrading sex acts, or offered/given to other men? What if they both were believers at marriage, but eventually the husband falls away and there is no chance of marriage counseling?
What I am looking for is Biblical/Scriptural reference. What does God say?
Then she needs to get out of dodge . But remarriage is something else . now if that husband comitted fornication against her . THEN remarriage is permissible , that or he dies . But she cannot partake of his evil desires . If that husband wants her to do such things .
SHE NEEDS TO FLEE that wicked hog . And of course i pray he would repent and come to Christ .
But she needs to flee that filth .
 

JohnDB

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Beyond context, I sense that you are wanting in any case to promote divorce and remarriage: this might not be your stated intent but it seems that the balance of your contributions point in this direction.

No...
Not hardly.
Remarriage statistics are abysmal at best. I am not suggesting that Christians should remarry because the proof is there that it's definitely a risky behavior. But it also is not a sin.

And abuse of a spouse is definitely grounds for divorce. I don't care what the excuse is.

You have no business being married to an abuser. Especially as a Christian. And as a Christian you definitely shouldn't be abusing anyone.... especially a spouse.
 

farouk

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No...
Not hardly.
Remarriage statistics are abysmal at best. I am not suggesting that Christians should remarry because the proof is there that it's definitely a risky behavior.

And abuse of a spouse is definitely grounds for divorce. I don't care what the excuse is.

You have no business being married to an abuser. Especially as a Christian. And as a Christian you definitely shouldn't be abusing anyone.... especially a spouse.
I agree about the catastrophic nature of abuse. I don't see how one gets divorce out of passages such as 1 Cor. 7 or Romans 7. I do see how God supplies grace day by day in the most intense of situations, Isaiah 48.10.
 

farouk

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not exactly my friend . JESUS said save for fornication .
Even abigail remained with her husband nabal who was a man of belial , TILL HE DIED . after that she became the wife of david .
and not before . save for fornication or death . oh you can seperate . but remarriage is not permissible
lest the spouse died or fornication was involved . Be encouraged .
This would seem to accord also with what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 7 and Romans 7.