Drawing the wrong conclusions

[Episkopos]

Well Jesus said I hold those my Father has given me in my hand and NOONE c an snatch them out of my hand.

Yes we have to continue to obey Jesus to live the life, but do you really think it is you and your efforts that keep you in the faith?

Is your vision of Jesus one of someone who will endure the cross etc to save a person, only to let that person drift away from him.
Is that the extent and power of Jesus's unimaginably great love for us, indifference to our
fate?

Consider the attitude of the foolish virgins or the unjust steward...or of the wicked servant. Does God stop the world in order to correct them...or at one point does He not let us do as we want?

 

[marks]

Consider the attitude of the foolish virgins or the unjust steward...or of the wicked servant. Does God stop the world in order to correct them...or at one point does He not let us do as we want?

But as God's children, sharing in His nature, what we want to do is to serve Jesus.

So then, He does let us do what we want, and He helps us to become better at it.

And we need to have a correct understanding of parables, that will help.

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

Consider the attitude of the foolish virgins or the unjust steward...or of the wicked servant. Does God stop the world in order to correct them...or at one point does He not let us do as we want?

You have again provide the evidence that you do not understand who the main character is in the Parable of the Pounds or the Talents with this statement above.

I know you deny it but the evidence above supports my previous point that I had made concerning you.

Oh well, what will be will be.

 

[amadeus]

God wants us to know we have eternal life, and you can't know you do unless you do.

It's a simple thing.

Much love!

Yes, you cannot know you do if you do not, but some who do not, walk in delusion because either they lost their love for truth or never had it the first place... although they thought that they did:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 10:11

So, how does a person avoid initial delusion or get rid the delusion he is already in...?

 

[amadeus]

For many years, I lived in self-condemnation as I would hear all kinds of "miraculous" experiences others had...also tongues. Since I had not had anything sensational happen to me, nor have I ever had the gift of tongues...I always thought myself as less than and un-saved. Of course, He has brought me a very long way from that attitude and has shown me how He works, through prayer, faith and trusting Him instead of myself! He is soooooooooo Good ♥ And, He is NOT a "feeling"...although, His awesomeness does bring about wonderful feelings. JMO

Give God the glory, indeed!

 

[amadeus]

Hi Chris,

That's true, we're saved by faith in Jesus' death and resurrection, not by having the rest of the doctrine straight.

But I do tremble for those who distance themselves to the very edge of God's grace, thinking that it truly rests on them to be saved. Is that in fact saving faith? Sometimes I wonder.

I believe that it always rests on our choices, between the ones Jesus mentions specifically: God or mammon. If we choose God really then we are also given the wherewithal to accomplish all the work that He requires of each of us. We must properly use all that He has given us and all that gives as we proceed along His highway of holiness.

But God knows.

Indeed He does while we live by faith not knowing all of the details except those God has revealed to us. Most [area there exceptions?] people do not know the difference between that which is by faith and that which is by knowledge in their walk with God.

That's why I want to always try to edify those who claim Christ, whether they seem like believers of not. Not my job to sort them out.

Amen! Let us do the work that God gives to us rather than trying to do His work for Him.

 

[faithfulness]

Another huge error is in the false conclusion of being "saved" as a status. A cursory bible study on this subject shows that salvation is mainly about being delivered in our daily troubles. Salvation is deliverance.

Jesus said in His famous prayer...deliver (save) us from evil. THAT is the salvation that is mostly confirmed in the bible. Does God only deliver us from evil once??? Or is this daily like our daily bread?

There is a passage where Paul says..."all who remain in the ship will be saved". Now with the wrong conclusions so prevalent in today's church...why is there no sect that believes in living aboard a ship for salvation? It is the same reasoning as they use for their religious "assurances."

Have very much to learn--but after having been indoctrinated in 'conditional' salvation, something flew in the face of that when I was open to understanding OSAS reasoning through a brother whose own sold-out relationship with God, love for God, knowing and trusting His love for him, was believable and spoke volumes to me; in that he used the example of a child being born into a family; of what father would ever disown his own child, speaking of our Heavenly Father. By virtue of the new birth, you are always His child, of His Family. The fellowship and rewards may differ, but you can never be unborn but always confident of spending eternity with Him. (?)

 

[amadeus]

Have very much to learn--but after having been indoctrinated in 'conditional' salvation, something flew in the face of that when I was open to understanding OSAS reasoning through a brother whose own sold-out relationship with God, love for God, knowing and trusting His love for him, was believable and spoke volumes to me; in that he used the example of a child being born into a family; of what father would ever disown his own child, speaking of our Heavenly Father. By virtue of the new birth, you are always His child, of His Family. The fellowship and rewards may differ, but you can never be unborn but always confident of spending eternity with Him. (?)

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Heb 12:6-8

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." John 8:39-42

 

[Nancy]

Salvation is instant by faith. You have turned it into a work.

Work out your salvation...? "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,"

Should we not work "out" what has been done in us?

 

[Nancy]

Yes, you cannot know you do if you do not, but some who do not, walk in delusion because either they lost their love for truth or never had it the first place... although they thought that they did:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 10:11

So, how does a person avoid initial delusion or get rid the delusion he is already in...?

Faith?
I do know there are times I question my own salvation so, to me it is an attack and lie of Satan who want's us to condemn ourselves...and I have come more and more to recognize his works. And...they are constant so, let us NEVER take our suits of armor off...♥

 

[CoreIssue]

Work out your salvation...? "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,"

Should we not work "out" what has been done in us?

There is a difference between working out the sanctification of our salvation and working to earn salvation.

What does it mean to work out salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)?

 

[faithfulness]

Have very much to learn--but after having been indoctrinated in 'conditional' salvation, something flew in the face of that when I was open to understanding OSAS reasoning through a brother whose own sold-out relationship with God, love for God, knowing and trusting His love for him, was believable and spoke volumes to me; in that he used the example of a child being born into a family; of what father would ever disown his own child, speaking of our Heavenly Father. By virtue of the new birth, you are always His child, of His Family. The fellowship and rewards may differ, but you can never be unborn but always confident of spending eternity with Him. (?)

Edit: failed to add that, to me, this OSAS brother walked in more of the love/anointing of God than any "conditional salvation" brother/sister/teacher I knew! Go figure.

 

[CoreIssue]

Faith?
I do know there are times I question my own salvation so, to me it is an attack and lie of Satan who want's us to condemn ourselves...and I have come more and more to recognize his works. And...they are constant so, let us NEVER take our suits of armor off...♥

That is growth in sanctification.

Salvation is by faith, no work involved.

You cannot lose it, when in doubt read Romans 8. That puts things back into perspective,

Demons do not work to take away your salvation. They work to stop you from being effective for God in the world.

They do not want more people saved.

 

[Nancy]

There is a difference between working out the sanctification of our salvation and working to earn salvation.

What does it mean to work out salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)?

This, from Gotquestions that you just shared:
"The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14).

Just sayin! Love you Core ♥
Also, I said nothing about earning salvation as that is impossible.

 

[CoreIssue]

Consider the attitude of the foolish virgins or the unjust steward...or of the wicked servant. Does God stop the world in order to correct them...or at one point does He not let us do as we want?

Who says that the foolish virgins, wicked servant or unjust Stewart were ever saved?

You cannot apply what was said in the Old Testament to the church as if they are the same thing.

 

[CoreIssue]

This, from Gotquestions that you just shared:
"The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14).

Just sayin! Love you Core ♥
Also, I said nothing about earning salvation as that is impossible.

I know you didn't say anything about salvation. I know you know better.

I put that in there for the benefit of the person you were responding to.

 

[amadeus]

Faith?
I do know there are times I question my own salvation so, to me it is an attack and lie of Satan who want's us to condemn ourselves...and I have come more and more to recognize his works. And...they are constant so, let us NEVER take our suits of armor off...♥

Yes, faith [as per Heb 11:1], but meaning that we really make no assumptions or presumptions based on what we already believe. I believe that our whole connection with God consists of things held by faith and things which we know. The problem is that I also believe we do not know which ones are which. That is... which ones are really God's truth and which one we only believe are God's truth. The difference, as we see by the multitude of denominations based supposedly on the same Bible and the multitude of individual doctrinal differences even on such a relatively small forum as this one, is sometimes tremendous. How do we separate that which we believe falsely and that which is really God's take on it? I look first to this parable:

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

How often should go to the "lowest room"? As often we are bidden by God to come! Humble ourselves down to the nothing we are in all of what we believe is our clear understanding... and then as appropriate and as He sees fit, He [God] will exalt us. He will give us back the things we set aside in taking the lowest place which were correct or replaced them with something better...He does the exalting... not us.

I do try to do this every day... and sometimes with God's help I may be changed for the better, better that is according to Him. Can we judge ourselves fairly in such a case?

Trouble with doing this? Also ask for help as per Matt 7:7-8. Also seek as per Matt 6:33... and so forth. You make the best use you can of what God has given you and will He not help you to improve?

 

[Nancy]

Yes, faith [as per Heb 11:1], but meaning that we really make no assumptions or presumptions based on what we already believe. I believe that our whole connection with God consists of things held by faith and things which we know. The problem is that I also believe we do not know which ones are which. That is... which ones are really God's truth and which one we only believe are God's truth. The difference, as we see by the multitude of denominations based supposedly on the same Bible and the multitude of individual doctrinal differences even on such a relatively small forum as this one, is sometimes tremendous. How do we separate that which we believe falsely and that which is really God's take on it? I look first to this parable:

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

How often should go to the "lowest room"? As often we are bidden by God to come! Humble ourselves down to the nothing we are in all of what we believe is our clear understanding... and then as appropriate and as He sees fit, He [God] will exalt us. He will give us back the things we set aside in taking the lowest place which were correct or replaced them with something better...He does the exalting... not us.

I do try to do this every day... and sometimes with God's help I may be changed for the better, better that is according to Him. Can we judge ourselves fairly in such a case?

Trouble with doing this? Also ask for help as per Matt 7:7-8. Also seek as per Matt 6:33... and so forth. You make the best use you can of what God has given you and will He not help you to improve?

"and will He not help you to improve?"
He has His work cut out with me every day, and how comforting some days that His mercies are new each day
Philippians 1:6 English
6 "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

 

[Nancy]

Yes, faith [as per Heb 11:1], but meaning that we really make no assumptions or presumptions based on what we already believe. I believe that our whole connection with God consists of things held by faith and things which we know. The problem is that I also believe we do not know which ones are which. That is... which ones are really God's truth and which one we only believe are God's truth. The difference, as we see by the multitude of denominations based supposedly on the same Bible and the multitude of individual doctrinal differences even on such a relatively small forum as this one, is sometimes tremendous. How do we separate that which we believe falsely and that which is really God's take on it? I look first to this parable:

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

How often should go to the "lowest room"? As often we are bidden by God to come! Humble ourselves down to the nothing we are in all of what we believe is our clear understanding... and then as appropriate and as He sees fit, He [God] will exalt us. He will give us back the things we set aside in taking the lowest place which were correct or replaced them with something better...He does the exalting... not us.

I do try to do this every day... and sometimes with God's help I may be changed for the better, better that is according to Him. Can we judge ourselves fairly in such a case?

Trouble with doing this? Also ask for help as per Matt 7:7-8. Also seek as per Matt 6:33... and so forth. You make the best use you can of what God has given you and will He not help you to improve?

"The problem is that I also believe we do not know which ones are which."
100% agree with you on this one Amadeus. When I cross those roads I simply ask God that if I ever be in error, His discerning power would work in me and either clarify or give me His peace, without having need to "know" something at any particular time. And yes, the parable of the lower room is always the go to place I would agree, we need to be able to say "I don't know" more so than we do as...I think (ha!) we know very little...
Anyhow , that's just what I think I know

 

[amadeus]

"The problem is that I also believe we do not know which ones are which."
100% agree with you on this one Amadeus. When I cross those roads I simply ask God that if I ever be in error, His discerning power would work in me and either clarify or give me His peace, without having need to "know" something at any particular time. And yes, the parable of the lower room is always the go to place I would agree, we need to be able to say "I don't know" more so than we do as...I think (ha!) we know very little...
Anyhow , that's just what I think I know

People lean too much on their own brain power, their own understanding... and salvation is NOT to be found there. Solomon wrote about that a thousand years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Prov 3:5-6