Eternal Security

[marks]

It sure can.

2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Just this one last thing, this portion of Peter's letter, he tells us who he means,

2 Peter 2:9-10 KJV
9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

And as he goes on, he continues to speak of these. Knowing the truth and obeying the truth are very different.

"The dog" has returned to it's vomit. There was no change. Take a dog, clean it up, train it to act nice, but let it off your leash, and it will run with the pack, and lap up it's vomit.

Ew!

Much love!

 

[Wynona]

By distrusting God's promise, saying "Maybe", introducing doubt, works directly against us in our desire to be pure, as we start to look at what things we have to do to be right with God, our eyes falling away from Jesus, and His saving grace.

But we do have to do something to be right with God.

We have to believe on the Son.

God's grace is unmerited favor, and undeserved gift, but we must receive the gift.

And it's possible to receive the gift and later reject it.

The idea that grace does everything and we do nothing sounds really good but was really confusing to me, besides being unbiblical.

Our part is to receive and obey the gospel, making Jesus our Lord. We are not these automatons that grace inevitably works through with zero effort on our part. It is a costly undertaking that takes real effort at times. And Scripture is clear that we must endure til the end to receive that crown of life.

Does this make God's salvation any less costly? It cost Jesus everything, the question is, will we accept this precious gift and nurture it in our hearts? Or let the cares of this world or the deceitfulness of sin kill this gift inside us?

Also, if grace does everything and we do nothing, why would Jesus reward us at the end of our lives and allow us to reign with Him? Yes, it's His goodness and grace but makes more sense if we also have a role to play.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

But we do have to do something to be right with God.

We have to believe on the Son.

God's grace is unmerited favor, and undeserved gift, but we must receive the gift.

And it's possible to receive the gift and later reject it.

The idea that grace does everything and we do nothing sounds really good but was really confusing to me, besides being unbiblical.

Our part is to receive and obey the gospel, making Jesus our Lord. We are not these automatons that grace inevitably works through with zero effort on our part. It is a costly undertaking that takes real effort at times. And Scripture is clear that we must endure til the end to receive that crown of life.

Does this make God's salvation any less costly? It cost Jesus everything, the question is, will we accept this precious gift and nurture it in our hearts? Or let the cares of this world or the deceitfulness of sin kill this gift inside us?

Also, if grace does everything and we do nothing, why would Jesus reward us at the end of our lives and allow us to reign with Him? Yes, it's His goodness and grace but makes more sense if we also have a role to play.

the only role we have in our salvation is that if we are saved, its by Gods choosing alone. Man has nothing to do with deciding on his own salvation. To say otherwise removes the importance of Jesus’ death. If you went out and asked people “Heaven or hell” i doubt anyone would say hell. No one actually wants to goto hell, so to assume we have a choice goes against everything God is about and has done for us.

 

[Wynona]

Just this one last thing, this portion of Peter's letter, he tells us who he means,

2 Peter 2:9-10 KJV
9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10) But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

And as he goes on, he continues to speak of these. Knowing the truth and obeying the truth are very different.

"The dog" has returned to it's vomit. There was no change. Take a dog, clean it up, train it to act nice, but let it off your leash, and it will run with the pack, and lap up it's vomit.

Ew!

Much love!

Not quite. Look at verse 20 again.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


Not only did they know Jesus Christ, they "escaped the pollutions of the world" through that knowledge.

It's talking about people who knew and obeyed the gospel at one time.

 

[Wynona]

the only role we have in our salvation is that if we are saved, its by Gods choosing alone. Man has nothing to do with deciding on his own salvation. To say otherwise removes the importance of Jesus’ death. If you went out and asked people “Heaven or hell” i doubt anyone would say hell. No one actually wants to goto hell, so to assume we have a choice goes against everything God is about and has done for us.

That's a heavy assertion. Does the Bible really say we have no choice in salvation? If it does, I'm not aware.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I pray that those on the fence or unsure about whether we can lose our salvation or not take the time to read the Scriptures you've posted.

Precious friend, only the few verses AGAINST, But not "take the time"
to prayerfully/Carefully "study" ALL The Plain And Clear
Scriptures "That Are FOR" God's ETERNAL Salvation?:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance

just wondering...

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What does it mean to be justified? What are we justified from? Are we justified from all our sins? Some of our sins? By what means have we been justified?

Before answering those questions you have to settle the important question, "WHO is justified?" Believing people, of course. Not people who never believed, and not people who stopped believing.

Even Calvinism agrees with this. It just says the person who has stopped believing never really believed to begin with. Hyper Grace theology is the theology that says even people who don't believe anymore are still justified. That's a joke. Unbelievers are not righteous in God's sight. It doesn't matter if that unbeliever never really believed, or stopped believing. Take your pick, it doesn't matter. Either way they do not stand justified by faith before God.

 

[Wynona]

Precious friend, only the few verses AGAINST, But not "take the time"
to prayerfully/Carefully "study" ALL The Plain And Clear
Scriptures "That Are FOR" God's ETERNAL Salvation?:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance

just wondering...

There are a lot of verses warning that we must endure in faith till the end.

Here are just a few:

Matthew 13:18-23

Romans 11:20-22

1 Corinthians 15:2

2 Corinthians 13:5

Galatians 5:1-4

1 Timothy 4:1

1 Timothy 5:11-15

Hebrews 3:6

Hebrews 3:12-15

Hebrews 12:14-15

2 Peter 2:20-22

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you have been raised with Christ . . . you shall appear with Him in glory. Simple. Plain.

Yes, all by itself, un-rightly divided from the rest of scripture Colossians 3:1-4 means there are no conditions attached for people who have been raised with Christ to appear with him when he returns. But as I've shown you, that interpretation makes several other verses of scripture not true anymore. The prophecy/promise of Colossians 3:1-4 is conditioned on whether you continue to believe. You can't un-rightly divide Colossians 3:1-4 away from the rest of scripture, like this passage:

"24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life." 1 John 2:24-25
​

As you can see, the promise of eternal life is conditioned on remaining in Son and the Father by letting the word remain in you. I don't care if you want to argue that the true believer will never stop believing. That still doesn't change the fact that you have to continue to believe to the very end to be saved when Jesus comes back.

 

[marks]

Before answering those questions you have to settle the important question, "WHO is justified?" Believing people, of course. Not people who never believed, and not people who stopped believing.

This is an interesting deflection.

You sidestep what justification is. Clearly, at least to me, you should take a stab at answering the questions I've posed.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The prophecy/promise of Colossians 3:1-4 is conditioned on whether you continue to believe.

So then you do not believe it's claim, at least, not without altering it. Because your condition does not appear in that passage, all the while making an explicit statement which renders your condition moot.

I think the idea is, the born again, being justified by the faith of Christ, we continue in that faith.

And as a statement foretelling something for it's recipient, I do not hesitate to call it prophecy. And prophecy will be fulfilled. It will be. Just like it always has been.

If you've been raised with Him . . . you shall appear with Him in glory.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But as I've shown you, that interpretation makes several other verses of scripture not true anymore.

Not so.

Show me one that is rendered untrue by the straightforward statements made in Colossians 3. Let's take them one at a time for clarity.

None will negate the statements of Colossians 3, and if they did, that's when we'd start having a real problem.

It's like, you know what it's saying, you just don't think that can be true. Is that a fair statement?

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

My hope is after this life God willingly I can go help other people outside of the gates of the heavenly Jerusalem, especially if any of my family members are out there in the darkness, maybe I can go out there and help them with Jesus Christ with in me in my spiritual body going out there.

Maybe you remember the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazurus? (Luke 16:19-31)
It is impossible after death to cross the great chasm between the damned and the righteous:

"a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us." Luke 16:26​

Once you are there, you're there for keeps (until the damned go into the lake of fire at the very end). All evangelism must be done in this life.
That may sound harsh and unmerciful to a person in the place of torment in the afterlife who regrets not accepting Christ, but if Moses is enough to convince someone to turn to God in this life (see vs. 31), how much more so the unveiled gospel in our time.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

when He “returns?”
return to Me and I will return to you

That's a condition.
Assuming it's not too late to return to Him.

 

[marks]

I don't care if you want to argue that the true believer will never stop believing. That still doesn't change the fact that you have to continue to believe to the very end to be saved when Jesus comes back.

This is all made moot by the passage I've been presenting. Not mention others.

You make a long ongoing business out of debating this point, but the net result is to cast doubt on somethat that God does not. Your idea of a born again person who stops believing and therefore the spirit child of God dies is not something I find in Scripture.

And recommend that we believe these parts of the Bible too, because of the significance of this other part,

"And he who has this hope purifies himself, even as he is pure."

If we want to purify ourselves, well, here is the recipe.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It's like, you know what it's saying, you just don't think that can be true. Is that a fair statement?

No. That is not even remotely a fair statement.
Colossians is 100% true. What you add to it is what is not true (that if you are risen in him you will always be risen with him).

Colossians 3:1-4 is true for the believing person, not the person who never believed, or who has stopped believing.
Unbelievers are not risen with him. So the truth of the passage doesn't apply to people who never believed (obviously), and no longer applies to the person who no longer believes. Unbelievers are NOT risen with him.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Your idea of a born again person who stops believing and therefore the spirit child of God dies is not something I find in Scripture.

It doesn't matter if it is, or if it is not because that doesn't change the fact that you have to continue to believe to the very end to be saved when Jesus comes back. Even Calvinism, where the original OSAS teaching comes from, says this! It says the true believer will always believe and can not stop. And so you must continue to believe to the very end or you aren't really saved. And that is the stance you are taking, whether you know it or not.

You must continue to believe to be risen in him. You cease to be risen with him, or you were never risen with him to begin with (take your pick, doesn't matter) if you stop believing, and, therefore, you will not appear with him when he returns. Colossians 3:1-4 either never applied to you, or ceased to apply to you. Only believing people are risen in him. The promise is for believing people.

 

[marks]

What can we say about the one who does not appear with Christ in glory? One thing conclusively. They were not raised with Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

What you add to it is what is not true

I've added nothing this is the passage.

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

It's not me, it's the Bible.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Show me one that is rendered untrue by the straightforward statements made in Colossians 3. Let's take them one at a time for clarity.

It's not made untrue by other passages. It is only applicable, and remains applicable to people according to other passages of scripture that you are ignoring. Like this one:

"24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life." 1 John 2:24-25​

John plainly says you remain in the Son and the Father IF the word remains in you. Colossians 3:1-4 doesn't apply to you if you don't let the word of the gospel remain in you.