You are all going to believe what you chose to believe ..So be my guest you will all find out soon enough but I will say this once and you can all go about your speculation. Our God is a God of Love and anyone who thinks he would get satisfaction out of Burning and torturing anyone forever is thinking with your own sinful,prideful flesh Its not Gods Word its not Gods Nature Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. death and Hell are destroyed and there is a new Heaven and a New earth and sin nor death nor torture exist the word forever is an age the end of this age then death and hell are destroyed cease to exist,no more remembered that is the Word of our Loving father.
Eternal Torment?
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WhiteKnuckle
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I disagree with you on this Jordan, Imagine that, I'm actually the one to disagree this time."The worm never dies" It's eternal man.And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev 14:11 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10What about the story about that rich guy standing in hell and begging for a single drop of water from the poor man that went to heaven?
QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 5 2009, 12:56 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71838
I disagree with you on this Jordan, Imagine that, I'm actually the one to disagree this time."The worm never dies" It's eternal man.And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev 14:11 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10What about the story about that rich guy standing in hell and begging for a single drop of water from the poor man that went to heaven?
Notice the next verse... Revelation 20:11 which is referring to the Great White Throne Judgment, which is Judgment Day. BTW, that kind of "Hell" in Luke 16 is not exactly the real Hell (The Lake of Fire)Luke 16 referring to Lazarus and the rich man... that Hell is referring to the side of wickedness when going to "Heaven" which our Father is. There is a gulf in Heaven. One is "Paradise" and one is "Hell". (But that's not the Lake of Fire which is the real Hell)
I disagree with you on this Jordan, Imagine that, I'm actually the one to disagree this time."The worm never dies" It's eternal man.And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev 14:11 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10What about the story about that rich guy standing in hell and begging for a single drop of water from the poor man that went to heaven?
Notice the next verse... Revelation 20:11 which is referring to the Great White Throne Judgment, which is Judgment Day. BTW, that kind of "Hell" in Luke 16 is not exactly the real Hell (The Lake of Fire)Luke 16 referring to Lazarus and the rich man... that Hell is referring to the side of wickedness when going to "Heaven" which our Father is. There is a gulf in Heaven. One is "Paradise" and one is "Hell". (But that's not the Lake of Fire which is the real Hell)
QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 4 2009, 10:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71838
I disagree with you on this Jordan, Imagine that, I'm actually the one to disagree this time."The worm never dies" It's eternal man.And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev 14:11 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10What about the story about that rich guy standing in hell and begging for a single drop of water from the poor man that went to heaven?
I think you are disagreeing with my post ..but reguardless you are still talking this age ...This age Ends after the millieum and there is a New Heaven a New Earth and its a new age ... Its at the End of this Age God destroys everything melts the ruduiments (elements) and destroys it all including death and Hell. There is a hell now there is a burning pit now but it is not for eternity its till the End of this age ...
I disagree with you on this Jordan, Imagine that, I'm actually the one to disagree this time."The worm never dies" It's eternal man.And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev 14:11 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10What about the story about that rich guy standing in hell and begging for a single drop of water from the poor man that went to heaven?
I think you are disagreeing with my post ..but reguardless you are still talking this age ...This age Ends after the millieum and there is a New Heaven a New Earth and its a new age ... Its at the End of this Age God destroys everything melts the ruduiments (elements) and destroys it all including death and Hell. There is a hell now there is a burning pit now but it is not for eternity its till the End of this age ...
WhiteKnuckle
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Well, fine, I'll disagree with you then!
Who knows where the lake of fire is? Either way, it says "lake of fire.......tormented.... for ever and ever." How could they be tormented for ever if they just ceased to exist?Either way, I'd still rather go to heaven. Not just for fear of flame, although, fire even for a moment sucks to feel, well at first it feels great, but that's a split second before the pain comesYou both know what your talking about and I've learned lots of truths from you, however,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
WhiteKnuckle
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I think Rev 20:14 -15 explains that part pretty well. Hell is a different place, it's not that anyone is cast into hell, I think hell is where the "gloomy dongeons" are, as far as death, that's kinda a mystery to me, as it seems to imply that death is an acutal figure, but, sin will be cast into the lake of fire also, (can't remember where that is in the bible).Either way, I can see how someone would say it's not eternal, yet I can see how it is eternal. People assume that the Lake of Fire is the center of the earth, lava and all that. I don't think so, where ever the lake of fire is is kinda like asking where heaven is.Why does this subject seem so important to people?
QUOTE (bethog @ Apr 5 2009, 06:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71849
QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 5 2009, 01:13 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71841
and destroys it all including death and Hell. ...
You do not read the Bible correctly. Death and Hades will be cast into Hell with anyone not found in the Book of life.Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. It suddenly dawned on me today. . . . this talk about the three ages and all nonsense around it is nothing else that “new age” this end time one world religion which we are warned about.It's not her that is clearly misunderstand what our loving Father is... It is you.Explain why did Christ in Matthew 24:3?Matthew 24:3 (NIV) - As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"And God saying...Isaiah 65:17 - For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.What amaze me is, nobody listens to nature these days... they only pervert nature and nature understandings.
QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 5 2009, 01:13 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71841
and destroys it all including death and Hell. ...
You do not read the Bible correctly. Death and Hades will be cast into Hell with anyone not found in the Book of life.Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. It suddenly dawned on me today. . . . this talk about the three ages and all nonsense around it is nothing else that “new age” this end time one world religion which we are warned about.It's not her that is clearly misunderstand what our loving Father is... It is you.Explain why did Christ in Matthew 24:3?Matthew 24:3 (NIV) - As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"And God saying...Isaiah 65:17 - For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.What amaze me is, nobody listens to nature these days... they only pervert nature and nature understandings.
QUOTE (bethog @ Apr 5 2009, 04:26 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71849
You do not read the Bible correctly. Death and Hades will be cast into Hell with anyone not found in the Book of life.Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. It suddenly dawned on me today. . . . this talk about the three ages and all nonsense around it is nothing else that “new age” this end time one world religion which we are warned about.
bethog Dont be an idiot ..if you ever accuse us of that again you will be kicked off here... got it ...If there is one thing we will not tolerate here it is New age and one worldism religious doctrine .....For you to make false accusations when we are simply using a term the bible uses in the hebrew EXPLANATIONS ...to explain there was time before Gen 1:3 and there is a time after the Millenium where there is a New heaven and a New earth YOUR LACK TO UNDERSTAND THIS TERM IN CONTEXT OF HOW WE USE IT ..DOESNT CONCERN ME SENSE I KNOW YOU AGREE THERE WAS A TIME BEFORE AND A TIME AFTER BUT YOUR FALSE ACUSATIONS OF ACCUSING US OF NEW AGE PAGAON GARBAGE SIMPLY BECAUSE WE USE A WORD YOUDO NOT LIKE WILL NOT BE TOLERATED............THIS IS COMMON TERM USED BY MANY BIBLE TEACHERS
You do not read the Bible correctly. Death and Hades will be cast into Hell with anyone not found in the Book of life.Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. It suddenly dawned on me today. . . . this talk about the three ages and all nonsense around it is nothing else that “new age” this end time one world religion which we are warned about.
bethog Dont be an idiot ..if you ever accuse us of that again you will be kicked off here... got it ...If there is one thing we will not tolerate here it is New age and one worldism religious doctrine .....For you to make false accusations when we are simply using a term the bible uses in the hebrew EXPLANATIONS ...to explain there was time before Gen 1:3 and there is a time after the Millenium where there is a New heaven and a New earth YOUR LACK TO UNDERSTAND THIS TERM IN CONTEXT OF HOW WE USE IT ..DOESNT CONCERN ME SENSE I KNOW YOU AGREE THERE WAS A TIME BEFORE AND A TIME AFTER BUT YOUR FALSE ACUSATIONS OF ACCUSING US OF NEW AGE PAGAON GARBAGE SIMPLY BECAUSE WE USE A WORD YOUDO NOT LIKE WILL NOT BE TOLERATED............THIS IS COMMON TERM USED BY MANY BIBLE TEACHERS
QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 5 2009, 11:27 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71859
I think Rev 20:14 -15 explains that part pretty well. Hell is a different place, it's not that anyone is cast into hell, I think hell is where the "gloomy dongeons" are, as far as death, that's kinda a mystery to me, as it seems to imply that death is an acutal figure, but, sin will be cast into the lake of fire also, (can't remember where that is in the bible).Either way, I can see how someone would say it's not eternal, yet I can see how it is eternal. People assume that the Lake of Fire is the center of the earth, lava and all that. I don't think so, where ever the lake of fire is is kinda like asking where heaven is.Why does this subject seem so important to people?
Let me see if I can help you here ... death has several meanings .. Death is another name for Satan ... as well it can mean to be dead spiritually (without Christ)..or it can mean to have a physical death ... If you keep this in mind it will help you understand whats being said Hell also has several meanings in scripture what the translaters call hell can have many meanings this is why there is so much contversy over this it is not a simple subject as it would seem on the surface so dont get frustrated when you do not get it all for example in Duet 32:22 the word for Hell is shoel(hebrew) it means 1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pita) the underworldb. ) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead1) place of no return2) without praise of God3) wicked sent there for punishment4) righteous not abandoned to it5) of the place of exile (fig)6) of extreme degradation in sinIn Rev.6:8 its the Word hades(greek)1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hellIn Mathew 5:22 its the Greek word "GehennaHell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.God uses these differnt words to depict differnt aspects of what hell is because its differnt for differnt times and differnt siuations So it is with the word forever and eternity If I say to you .. You can work here forever ...forever it is realitive it means the rest of your life your forever ... so it is with eternity ot can be a relative term it is said Sodom would burn for eternity ..do we see it burning today ? one must understand the time frame the circumstance ect to get a full picture of hell ... But the topic of this thread is burning in hell and torment forever ..... To understand that we must understand forever means ... untill God ends this World this time this age whatever you want to call it Rev. 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed awayOur God is the God of Love once things are made New ask yourself what point is there in torturning someone forever
I think Rev 20:14 -15 explains that part pretty well. Hell is a different place, it's not that anyone is cast into hell, I think hell is where the "gloomy dongeons" are, as far as death, that's kinda a mystery to me, as it seems to imply that death is an acutal figure, but, sin will be cast into the lake of fire also, (can't remember where that is in the bible).Either way, I can see how someone would say it's not eternal, yet I can see how it is eternal. People assume that the Lake of Fire is the center of the earth, lava and all that. I don't think so, where ever the lake of fire is is kinda like asking where heaven is.Why does this subject seem so important to people?
Let me see if I can help you here ... death has several meanings .. Death is another name for Satan ... as well it can mean to be dead spiritually (without Christ)..or it can mean to have a physical death ... If you keep this in mind it will help you understand whats being said Hell also has several meanings in scripture what the translaters call hell can have many meanings this is why there is so much contversy over this it is not a simple subject as it would seem on the surface so dont get frustrated when you do not get it all for example in Duet 32:22 the word for Hell is shoel(hebrew) it means 1. sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pita) the underworldb. ) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead1) place of no return2) without praise of God3) wicked sent there for punishment4) righteous not abandoned to it5) of the place of exile (fig)6) of extreme degradation in sinIn Rev.6:8 its the Word hades(greek)1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hellIn Mathew 5:22 its the Greek word "GehennaHell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.God uses these differnt words to depict differnt aspects of what hell is because its differnt for differnt times and differnt siuations So it is with the word forever and eternity If I say to you .. You can work here forever ...forever it is realitive it means the rest of your life your forever ... so it is with eternity ot can be a relative term it is said Sodom would burn for eternity ..do we see it burning today ? one must understand the time frame the circumstance ect to get a full picture of hell ... But the topic of this thread is burning in hell and torment forever ..... To understand that we must understand forever means ... untill God ends this World this time this age whatever you want to call it Rev. 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed awayOur God is the God of Love once things are made New ask yourself what point is there in torturning someone forever
WhiteKnuckle
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Okay, I need to get some things straight here.The question to eternal firey torment is really a question of how loving God is?Is this also a question of, Would a loving God send anyone to eternal torment?As I'm certain of God as being soverign, and his judgements are right and true,,,,,,,, One we cannot know the mind of God, and what we would consider what would be right seems to cloud our judgments sometimes. "for there is a way that seems right to a man"Atleast for me a careful question when deciding the answer to this question is,,,,,"Am I trying to rationalize the word of God in a way that makes me feel better?" My answer is no, even though I don't like the idea of a loving God sending someone to eternal torment for something that I would never call worthy of being tortured for ever and ever.Are we all sure we're not doing this? How can we all put the idea of Hell or the lake of fire into context?
Here is the way I see this based in scripture and understanding of Hebrew and Greek There is currently a Hell we see this in the story of Lazarus ... but its not a burning hell there is a pit and a binding Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, the Lake of fire is reserved for Satan and those who follow him after the Second coming of Christ we have 1000 years of the millenium Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Now at this point Satan is being tortured day and night But what happens after thisWe now have Judgement this is the white throne judgement Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Now everyone has been Judged to their fate ... The second death is the death of ones soul without a soul one ceases to exist only God can kill a soul Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Now What happens Satan and those not written in the book of life have been judged to the second death He says he destroys death and hell and makes a New Heaven and New earth there is no sin, no,death no hell in our new World Revelation 21 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.All the old things including death and hell are gone passed away (forever is no longer a relevant term all old things are dead and gone)Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. We will no longer remember this earth this time this age ...So what purpose would there be be for anyone to still be burning and being tortured we would never even remember why this was ...So the only question left is does God get enjoyment from this ?Its not in the nature of God 1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. His only purpose for putting us through this time of trial and tribulation was to rid the World of sin and weed out the tares once that is accomplished ... They are gone cease to exist die the second death .... He makes things New erases our memory Rev22:3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the lastNow if you can find a purpose for bringing the old hell and torture for the past into God New earth I guess you will have to believe in a burning forever But the only reason for it sense we wont remember any of it is for Gods own hate and revenge if you think that is Gods nature your choice but I tell you scripture says this is not possible for God ...P.S. I dont see my job here as telling anyone what to believe but rather helping to pull all relvent scripture on a subject into context to help one get a full picture ... so they can better understand when we try to make a decision what to believe on subject we need all the scriptures relevent not just one here and there ...
QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 5 2009, 04:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71870
Here is the way I see this based in scripture and understanding of Hebrew and Greek There is currently a Hell we see this in the story of Lazarus ... but its not a burning hell there is a pit and a binding Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, the Lake of fire is reserved for Satan and those who follow him after the Second coming of Christ we have 1000 years of the millenium Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Now at this point Satan is being tortured day and night But what happens after thisWe now have Judgement this is the white throne judgement Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Now everyone has been Judged to their fate ... The second death is the death of ones soul without a soul one ceases to exist only God can kill a soul Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Now What happens Satan and those not written in the book of life have been judged to the second death He says he destroys death and hell and makes a New Heaven and New earth there is no sin, no,death no hell in our new World Revelation 21 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.All the old things including death and hell are gone passed away (forever is no longer a relevant term all old things are dead and gone)Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. We will no longer remember this earth this time this age ...So what purpose would there be be for anyone to still be burning and being tortured we would never even remember why this was ...So the only question left is does God get enjoyment from this ?Its not in the nature of God 1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. His only purpose for putting us through this time of trial and tribulation was to rid the World of sin and weed out the tares once that is accomplished ... They are gone cease to exist die the second death .... He makes things New erases our memory Rev22:3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the lastNow if you can find a purpose for bringing the old hell and torture for the past into God New earth I guess you will have to believe in a burning forever But the only reason for it sense we wont remember is for Gods own hate and revenge if you think that is Gods nature your choice but I tell you scripture says this is not possible for God ...
Very wonderful post Christina, but I like to add these verses for emphasis that is not in your post... just for a second witness.Matthew 24:35 - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.Mark 13:31 - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.Luke 21:33 - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away....Luke 12:4 - And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Here is the way I see this based in scripture and understanding of Hebrew and Greek There is currently a Hell we see this in the story of Lazarus ... but its not a burning hell there is a pit and a binding Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, the Lake of fire is reserved for Satan and those who follow him after the Second coming of Christ we have 1000 years of the millenium Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Now at this point Satan is being tortured day and night But what happens after thisWe now have Judgement this is the white throne judgement Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Now everyone has been Judged to their fate ... The second death is the death of ones soul without a soul one ceases to exist only God can kill a soul Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Now What happens Satan and those not written in the book of life have been judged to the second death He says he destroys death and hell and makes a New Heaven and New earth there is no sin, no,death no hell in our new World Revelation 21 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.All the old things including death and hell are gone passed away (forever is no longer a relevant term all old things are dead and gone)Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. We will no longer remember this earth this time this age ...So what purpose would there be be for anyone to still be burning and being tortured we would never even remember why this was ...So the only question left is does God get enjoyment from this ?Its not in the nature of God 1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. His only purpose for putting us through this time of trial and tribulation was to rid the World of sin and weed out the tares once that is accomplished ... They are gone cease to exist die the second death .... He makes things New erases our memory Rev22:3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the lastNow if you can find a purpose for bringing the old hell and torture for the past into God New earth I guess you will have to believe in a burning forever But the only reason for it sense we wont remember is for Gods own hate and revenge if you think that is Gods nature your choice but I tell you scripture says this is not possible for God ...
Very wonderful post Christina, but I like to add these verses for emphasis that is not in your post... just for a second witness.Matthew 24:35 - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.Mark 13:31 - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.Luke 21:33 - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away....Luke 12:4 - And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
WhiteKnuckle
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I'm having a hard time with this "forever" thing. If we use semantics on the word forever, as in the context I think you were using it for, "Man, that took me forever!"Then in the same way, serving God in heaven, "Where they worship the Lord forever" Might be temporary.Obviously we can't use the term forever subjectively.I've noticed every where in the bible that says, eternal, meant quite literaly eternal, as in, "Eternal God" I'm not one for studying the greek/hebrew meanings and cross reference, (a "downfall" according to some) Nonetheless, Is there a compiled list of the number of times Eternity is mentioned crossreferenced with the greek/hebrew meanings and context? Preferably without alot of words of someone explaining it.
QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 5 2009, 05:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71874
I'm having a hard time with this "forever" thing. If we use semantics on the word forever, as in the context I think you were using it for, "Man, that took me forever!"Then in the same way, serving God in heaven, "Where they worship the Lord forever" Might be temporary.Obviously we can't use the term forever subjectively.I've noticed every where in the bible that says, eternal, meant quite literaly eternal, as in, "Eternal God" I'm not one for studying the greek/hebrew meanings and cross reference, (a "downfall" according to some) Nonetheless, Is there a compiled list of the number of times Eternity is mentioned crossreferenced with the greek/hebrew meanings and context? Preferably without alot of words of someone explaining it.
Serving the Lord is indeed forever (eternal) after the Millennium Reign. The punishment is not forever (eternal), but rather forever (as in age, period of time)
I'm having a hard time with this "forever" thing. If we use semantics on the word forever, as in the context I think you were using it for, "Man, that took me forever!"Then in the same way, serving God in heaven, "Where they worship the Lord forever" Might be temporary.Obviously we can't use the term forever subjectively.I've noticed every where in the bible that says, eternal, meant quite literaly eternal, as in, "Eternal God" I'm not one for studying the greek/hebrew meanings and cross reference, (a "downfall" according to some) Nonetheless, Is there a compiled list of the number of times Eternity is mentioned crossreferenced with the greek/hebrew meanings and context? Preferably without alot of words of someone explaining it.
Serving the Lord is indeed forever (eternal) after the Millennium Reign. The punishment is not forever (eternal), but rather forever (as in age, period of time)
QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 5 2009, 03:55 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71874
I'm having a hard time with this "forever" thing. If we use semantics on the word forever, as in the context I think you were using it for, "Man, that took me forever!"Then in the same way, serving God in heaven, "Where they worship the Lord forever" Might be temporary.Obviously we can't use the term forever subjectively.I've noticed every where in the bible that says, eternal, meant quite literaly eternal, as in, "Eternal God" I'm not one for studying the greek/hebrew meanings and cross reference, (a "downfall" according to some) Nonetheless, Is there a compiled list of the number of times Eternity is mentioned crossreferenced with the greek/hebrew meanings and context? Preferably without alot of words of someone explaining it.
It can mean both as I said forever is a relative term it is used both ways thats why you can not use the word alone to decide ............. forget the Word forever for a time do you see evidence rhyme and reason and Nature of God supporting a burning forever without that word ??... If you do not see it supported without a Word that can mean two things you have a firm basis for believing it means an age ....or vise versayou cant through out all contrary evidence all Gods nature for one Word that can mean one of two things ...This guy is a little flashy and radical but maybe his explation will help you he is right reguardless of his weird graphicshttp://www.satansrapture.com/hell4ever.htm
I'm having a hard time with this "forever" thing. If we use semantics on the word forever, as in the context I think you were using it for, "Man, that took me forever!"Then in the same way, serving God in heaven, "Where they worship the Lord forever" Might be temporary.Obviously we can't use the term forever subjectively.I've noticed every where in the bible that says, eternal, meant quite literaly eternal, as in, "Eternal God" I'm not one for studying the greek/hebrew meanings and cross reference, (a "downfall" according to some) Nonetheless, Is there a compiled list of the number of times Eternity is mentioned crossreferenced with the greek/hebrew meanings and context? Preferably without alot of words of someone explaining it.
It can mean both as I said forever is a relative term it is used both ways thats why you can not use the word alone to decide ............. forget the Word forever for a time do you see evidence rhyme and reason and Nature of God supporting a burning forever without that word ??... If you do not see it supported without a Word that can mean two things you have a firm basis for believing it means an age ....or vise versayou cant through out all contrary evidence all Gods nature for one Word that can mean one of two things ...This guy is a little flashy and radical but maybe his explation will help you he is right reguardless of his weird graphicshttp://www.satansrapture.com/hell4ever.htm
WhiteKnuckle
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Thanks Bethog.Now I have to ask. Hypotheticaly, if you were unsaved, but were contemplating God and being saved. If you "found out" that there was no burning in hell forever, that the consequence of unbelief would be to just simply cease to exist, why on earth would someone want to get saved?Seing that they can do what ever they want with no consequence other than non existance, which is what most that don't believe think. "When I die, I simply cease to exist, nothing more nothing less"Now, on the other hand, "I want to live forever, so I need to get saved, even though there's no real eternal consequence for what I do" If there's no consequence for any sin other than just ceasing to exist, there's absolutely no reason for a person to want to believe in the first place.It does seem like a "loving God" wouldn't do something like send someone to a place he created for eternal punishment and torture and all that horrible stuff. However, (Man I've always got some however, or a but, don't I) It seems the Love of God is best shown that1. There is indeed a place called the Lake of Fire.2. There is indeed an eternity.3. Everything we do has an eternal consequence, (even though there are disciplines and judgements during our lifetime that are not eternal, but seen as a time or "age")4. Christ died on the cross and suffered death and beatings and bruises and lashings and humiliation, while being innocent, to atone for our sins.5. The love of God is that we all should come to salvation.6 The truth is "few are chosen" "few there are that find it", So comparitively to the multitudes of people that have ever existed in the history of creation, few will be saved.7. The Kingdom of God is eternal, God is eternal, God is everlasting.8. Gods desire is that no one should parish.9. Being separated from God is dead.10. The devil will be cast into the lake of fire and so will all those whos name are not written in the book of life. "Where they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever"11. The lake of fire is eternal, everlasting, and unquenchable.Why would God be so concerned if there wasn't a dire consequence, if he's just gonna forget about those who aren't saved?
QUOTE (bethog @ Apr 5 2009, 07:13 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71879
QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 5 2009, 06:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71875
Serving the Lord is indeed forever (eternal) after the Millennium Reign. The punishment is not forever (eternal), but rather forever (as in age, period of time)
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, today, and forever. Hbr 7:17 For He testifies: "You [are] a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." Hbr 13:21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom [be] glory forever and ever. Amen. 1Pe 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1Pe 1:25 But the word of the LORD endures forever." Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you. 1Pe 4:11 If anyone speaks, [let him] [speak] as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, [let him do it] as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 1Pe 5:11 To Him [be] the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. 2Pe 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him [be] the glory both now and forever. Amen. 1Jo 2:17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. 2Jo 1:2 because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: Jud 1:13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. Jud 1:25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, [Be] glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen. Rev 1:6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him [be] glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Rev 4:9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power [Be] to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!" Rev 5:14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever. Rev 7:12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, [Be] to our God forever and ever. Amen." Rev 10:6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer, Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Rev 15:7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. Rev 19:3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!" Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [are]. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Rev 22:5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.Bethog, nothing you will say ever will change my mind... and I don't care how many verses you quote. This is one thing I won't let it creep into my mind and that is Satan's lies. You are free to believe in a translation of the bible... That in itself giveth no wisdom of God. All translators are never perfect in translating. The translation of the bible without God's wisdom only give one thing... a pervertion. God never says to trust in the translation of the bible. But you are free to believe whatever you want. I chose God and His Wisdom than just words without a person having wisdom.
QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 5 2009, 06:06 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71875
Serving the Lord is indeed forever (eternal) after the Millennium Reign. The punishment is not forever (eternal), but rather forever (as in age, period of time)
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, today, and forever. Hbr 7:17 For He testifies: "You [are] a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." Hbr 13:21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom [be] glory forever and ever. Amen. 1Pe 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1Pe 1:25 But the word of the LORD endures forever." Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you. 1Pe 4:11 If anyone speaks, [let him] [speak] as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, [let him do it] as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 1Pe 5:11 To Him [be] the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. 2Pe 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him [be] the glory both now and forever. Amen. 1Jo 2:17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. 2Jo 1:2 because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever: Jud 1:13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. Jud 1:25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, [Be] glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen. Rev 1:6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him [be] glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Rev 4:9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power [Be] to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!" Rev 5:14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever. Rev 7:12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, [Be] to our God forever and ever. Amen." Rev 10:6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer, Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Rev 15:7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. Rev 19:3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!" Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [are]. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Rev 22:5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.Bethog, nothing you will say ever will change my mind... and I don't care how many verses you quote. This is one thing I won't let it creep into my mind and that is Satan's lies. You are free to believe in a translation of the bible... That in itself giveth no wisdom of God. All translators are never perfect in translating. The translation of the bible without God's wisdom only give one thing... a pervertion. God never says to trust in the translation of the bible. But you are free to believe whatever you want. I chose God and His Wisdom than just words without a person having wisdom.
QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 5 2009, 05:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71878
Thanks Bethog.Now I have to ask. Hypotheticaly, if you were unsaved, but were contemplating God and being saved. If you "found out" that there was no burning in hell forever, that the consequence of unbelief would be to just simply cease to exist, why on earth would someone want to get saved?Seing that they can do what ever they want with no consequence other than non existance, which is what most that don't believe think. "When I die, I simply cease to exist, nothing more nothing less"Now, on the other hand, "I want to live forever, so I need to get saved, even though there's no real eternal consequence for what I do" If there's no consequence for any sin other than just ceasing to exist, there's absolutely no reason for a person to want to believe in the first place.It does seem like a "loving God" wouldn't do something like send someone to a place he created for eternal punishment and torture and all that horrible stuff. However, (Man I've always got some however, or a but, don't I) It seems the Love of God is best shown that1. There is indeed a place called the Lake of Fire.2. There is indeed an eternity.3. Everything we do has an eternal consequence, (even though there are disciplines and judgements during our lifetime that are not eternal, but seen as a time or "age")4. Christ died on the cross and suffered death and beatings and bruises and lashings and humiliation, while being innocent, to atone for our sins.5. The love of God is that we all should come to salvation.6 The truth is "few are chosen" "few there are that find it", So comparitively to the multitudes of people that have ever existed in the history of creation, few will be saved.7. The Kingdom of God is eternal, God is eternal, God is everlasting.8. Gods desire is that no one should parish.9. Being separated from God is dead.10. The devil will be cast into the lake of fire and so will all those whos name are not written in the book of life. "Where they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever"11. The lake of fire is eternal, everlasting, and unquenchable.Why would God be so concerned if there wasn't a dire consequence, if he's just gonna forget about those who aren't saved?
And you guys dont think being burned up to never exist anymore is not forever ???????????????????? You think thats not a dire consequence ?????????? this idea you must be afraid of burning in hell forever for being a Non believer is anti biblical you are to come to God out of love not threats this is church doctrine not biblical doctrine The burning is reserved for those who know God and chose to follow Satan ...and Satan himselfAnd one more question if hell is in the earth and God makes a New earth where is hell ?? sense God says he destroys Hell
Thanks Bethog.Now I have to ask. Hypotheticaly, if you were unsaved, but were contemplating God and being saved. If you "found out" that there was no burning in hell forever, that the consequence of unbelief would be to just simply cease to exist, why on earth would someone want to get saved?Seing that they can do what ever they want with no consequence other than non existance, which is what most that don't believe think. "When I die, I simply cease to exist, nothing more nothing less"Now, on the other hand, "I want to live forever, so I need to get saved, even though there's no real eternal consequence for what I do" If there's no consequence for any sin other than just ceasing to exist, there's absolutely no reason for a person to want to believe in the first place.It does seem like a "loving God" wouldn't do something like send someone to a place he created for eternal punishment and torture and all that horrible stuff. However, (Man I've always got some however, or a but, don't I) It seems the Love of God is best shown that1. There is indeed a place called the Lake of Fire.2. There is indeed an eternity.3. Everything we do has an eternal consequence, (even though there are disciplines and judgements during our lifetime that are not eternal, but seen as a time or "age")4. Christ died on the cross and suffered death and beatings and bruises and lashings and humiliation, while being innocent, to atone for our sins.5. The love of God is that we all should come to salvation.6 The truth is "few are chosen" "few there are that find it", So comparitively to the multitudes of people that have ever existed in the history of creation, few will be saved.7. The Kingdom of God is eternal, God is eternal, God is everlasting.8. Gods desire is that no one should parish.9. Being separated from God is dead.10. The devil will be cast into the lake of fire and so will all those whos name are not written in the book of life. "Where they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever"11. The lake of fire is eternal, everlasting, and unquenchable.Why would God be so concerned if there wasn't a dire consequence, if he's just gonna forget about those who aren't saved?
And you guys dont think being burned up to never exist anymore is not forever ???????????????????? You think thats not a dire consequence ?????????? this idea you must be afraid of burning in hell forever for being a Non believer is anti biblical you are to come to God out of love not threats this is church doctrine not biblical doctrine The burning is reserved for those who know God and chose to follow Satan ...and Satan himselfAnd one more question if hell is in the earth and God makes a New earth where is hell ?? sense God says he destroys Hell
WhiteKnuckle
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No, that's not what I'm saying. Man, it's hard to articulate in simple terms, (no offense on the simple) Let me try to rephrase what I was saying. I should state that I consider this to be one of the most serious issues I've ever dealt with as it forces me to reexamine a lot of things and is testing me to my very core of my belief.An atheist doesn't believe in God. He believes there are no consequences for the things he does. He believes that no matter what he does he will die, and that death is just mere ceasing to exist. No regret no worries. So in a sense it doesn't matter to hime if he believes or not. He's separated from God as we speak. So, either way, there is no regret since he will cease to exist and yes the thousand years of separation or burning will suck for him. But all in all he's right if we believe the lake of fire is temporary.For me as a believer, the idea of being separated from Gods love even for a second is a nightmare. Not to be a fear monger, but "fear of God is beginning of understanding". I'm certainly not in favor of trying to "warn" unbelievers about burning forever in some horid place like the lake of fire. I never ever even use that as any part of my testimony, or even bring it up if I'm going to wittness.But, to me, Gods mercy is saving someone from their doom. It seems to me Gods grace and love and mercy is greater when he chooses to have it, if hell is eternal.I don't agree that hell was created for man, but as default, as you say for someone deciding to go the way of satan.Does that sound clearer about what I was trying to say?
QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 4 2009, 11:42 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71834
You are all going to believe what you chose to believe ..So be my guest you will all find out soon enough but I will say this once and you can all go about your speculation.
I believe what God has said, and you nor anyone else will convince me that Jesus was a liar.Matthew 2541 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
You are all going to believe what you chose to believe ..So be my guest you will all find out soon enough but I will say this once and you can all go about your speculation.
I believe what God has said, and you nor anyone else will convince me that Jesus was a liar.Matthew 2541 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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