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Eternal Torment?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by TallMan, Apr 2, 2009.

  1. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Apr 5 2009, 08:54 PM)
    QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 4 2009, 11:42 PM)
    You are all going to believe what you chose to believe ..So be my guest you will all find out soon enough but I will say this once and you can all go about your speculation. ...
    I believe what God has said, and you nor anyone else will convince me that Jesus was a liar.Matthew 2541 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.You're absolutely right, nobody will convince you that your "Jesus" is a liar... God made it clear of a warning preaching another Christ... this doctrine of yours has no good fruit... just a perversion of the Truth... because you are too busy in your fleshly mindset rather looking for what our Father and the real Christ is saying with a godly mindset. Whatever floats your boat, that's fine by me. You reap what you sow.Lean not in thine own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)QUOTE (bethog @ Apr 5 2009, 07:51 PM)
    And you guys dont think being burned up to never exist anymore is not forever ???????????????????? You must make up your mind . . . is anybody going to burn or not. What does forever means to you?
    Depending on the context, but it's clear that not every verse that says forever and ever means forever (eternal, eternity etc) but rather forever (as in a period of time, an age)
     
  2. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 5 2009, 09:19 PM)
    I believe what God has said, and you nor anyone else will convince me that Jesus was a liar.Matthew 2541 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.You're absolutely right, nobody will convince you that your "Jesus" is a liar... God made it clear of a warning preaching another Christ... this doctrine of yours has no good fruit... just a perversion of the Truth... because you are too busy in your fleshly mindset rather looking for what our Father and the real Christ is saying with a godly mindset. Whatever floats your boat, that's fine by me. You reap what you sow.Lean not in thine own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)
    You pervert the truth, and when you face God you will have to answer to Him for why you have taught that Hell does not exist, and why you have so diligently tried to deceive the unlearned.
     
  3. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Apr 5 2009, 09:34 PM)
    QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 5 2009, 09:19 PM)
    You're absolutely right, nobody will convince you that your "Jesus" is a liar... God made it clear of a warning preaching another Christ... this doctrine of yours has no good fruit... just a perversion of the Truth... because you are too busy in your fleshly mindset rather looking for what our Father and the real Christ is saying with a godly mindset. Whatever floats your boat, that's fine by me. You reap what you sow.Lean not in thine own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)
    You pervert the truth, and when you face God you will have to answer to Him for why you have taught that Hell does not exist, and why you have so diligently tried to deceive the unlearned.I never said that Hell doesn't exist. So it's in your mind. Not mine. Hell (in which I referring to the Lake of Fire) has not been created yet... just another false accusations, and you are highly unlearned... because I can tell by reading your posts. ... but I don't care about your beliefs, because I have no need to argue with you anymore. Again, you reap what you sow and I won't cast my pearls to swines who proudly enjoys men's words more than God's Words.
     
  4. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 5 2009, 09:41 PM)
    You pervert the truth, and when you face God you will have to answer to Him for why you have taught that Hell does not exist, and why you have so diligently tried to deceive the unlearned.I never said that Hell doesn't exist. So it's your in your mind. Not mine. Hell (in which I referring to the Lake of Fire) has not been created yet... just another false accusations, and you are highly unlearned... because I can tell by reading your posts. ... but I don't care about your beliefs, because I have no need to argue with you anymore. Again, you reap what you sow and I won't cast my pearls to swines who proudly enjoys men's words more than God's Words.
    You are right my mistake you think sinners sit in hell until the end of the millennium and then are annihilated, even though Jesus says there punishment is everlasting. hmm who should I believe Christ or you?Matthew 2541 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Talk about believing men's words you eat up Christina's as if she was Christ herself.I believe no one but God.
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Apr 5 2009, 09:48 PM)
    QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 5 2009, 09:41 PM)
    I never said that Hell doesn't exist. So it's in your mind. Not mine. Hell (in which I referring to the Lake of Fire) has not been created yet... just another false accusations, and you are highly unlearned... because I can tell by reading your posts. ... but I don't care about your beliefs, because I have no need to argue with you anymore. Again, you reap what you sow and I won't cast my pearls to swines who proudly enjoys men's words more than God's Words.
    You are right my mistake you think sinners sit in hell until the end of the millennium and then are annihilated, even though Jesus says there punishment is everlasting. hmm who should I believe Christ or you?Matthew 2541 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Talk about believing men's words you eat up Christina's as if she was Christ herself.I believe no one but God.LOL!, Are you kidding me? Guess you still have not yet learned enough... what does the bible say about falsely accusing people? And the fact you stick with your judgment calls about me, so be it, guess I should do the same to you, but luckily, I don't have a stupid mind. So I'll leave the righteous and only Judge to judge you as no human has been judged yet.
     
  6. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    I have to admit, I never once questioned whether Hell was eternal or not before.The first time I ever heard of this, "teporary state" was from a Jehovahs Witness. Since it came from their mouths I dismissed it and never questioned it again. After a little reading on this forum I'm learned somethings from a view I never thought of or heard of. Some was good some was hersey.I understand the reasoning, "An all loving God would not send somewhere to be tormented forever." It does seemingly go against what we would think of as Gods loving nature. It's painful to the soul to think of some of our loved ones being in that state, it's painful to think of strangers being in that state. It's a hard pill to swallow.One thing that has not been brought up in this entire post is the Soverignity of the Lord. We all agree that the Lord is soverign. We all agree that God is love. We all agree that God is holy. We all agree that God is merciful. We all agree that God is eternal. We all agree that those whom God has chosen to show mercy he has shown mercy. We all agree that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and through him we have eternal life.So, infact we agree that the eternal life we recieved from Jesus, is life everlasting, eternal literal, not an age, or a time, or a thousand years.Now on to the Soverignity of the Lord. "Who are you O'man that you would question God?"To those who say God doesn't want to torment anyone forever, You're absolutely right! He doesn't, as the Lord said regarding the Mosaic Law of Sacrifice, "but the lord did not desire sacrifice" "The Lord desires mercy"What is Gods character? Is he jealous? Is he vengeful? Does he hate sin? Does he punish anyone? How does God show his love? How does God show his mercy? Let's examine this for a moment.Deuteronomy 25:11 QUOTE
    When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: 12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.
    Even though it says, cut off her hand, people still deny that God would command this, and this is not a literal deal. Yet there it is. Is God not being merciful?Yes he is! It is not right that a woman would deny a man the right to concieve a child and thus making him unable to carry on his line. This is a mercy for the man. Is God not just? Is God not merciful? If the penalty of the law were such, is it possible to pray that God would show mercy? Read for yourself. That's what the entire new testament was about, and the reason for Jesus paying the penalty on the cross!If you claim that an eternal hell is against the idea of a Loving God, you should rexamine who God is. I declare the Mercy of God as well as the Soverignity of God.Whether judgement is made from life unto death or death unto life is a Judgement from God who is Holy, Righteous, Soverign, and Loving. Do you not know that the Lord Grieves? Do you not know the pain and trouble the Lord goes through in his heart at the thought of anyone rejecting him? Do you not understand?Read for yourselves and make up your mind for yourselves.
     
  7. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 5 2009, 09:57 PM)
    You are right my mistake you think sinners sit in hell until the end of the millennium and then are annihilated, even though Jesus says there punishment is everlasting. hmm who should I believe Christ or you?Matthew 2541 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Talk about believing men's words you eat up Christina's as if she was Christ herself.I believe no one but God.LOL!, Are you kidding me? Guess you still have not yet learned enough... what does the bible say about falsely accusing people? And the fact you stick with your judgment calls about me, so be it, guess I should do the same to you, but luckily, I don't have a stupid mind. So I'll leave the righteous and only Judge to judge you as no human has been judged yet.
    God and His word is on my side you will be the one that is judged. My wisdom is in God not the philosophies of man1st Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (bethog @ Apr 5 2009, 10:07 PM)
    QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 5 2009, 09:41 PM)
    I never said that Hell doesn't exist. So it's in your mind. Not mine. Hell (in which I referring to the Lake of Fire) has not been created yet...
    You say in one sentence “I never said that Hell doesn't exist” and then in the same sentence Hell has not been created yet. So what is it? What do you believe? Does hell exist or not yet created? Pro 15:11 - Hell and Destruction [are] before the LORD; So how much more the hearts of the sons of men. 2Pe 2:4 - For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast [them] down to hell and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; From the two verses above the Word says that hell is before the lord (now, not future) and God has cast (past tense) the angels who sinned and delivered (past tense) into hell. Now how can they be in hell and hell be before the Lord if hell doesn't exist yet?If you read the whole thing, you might be able to understand what I was saying. And Hell has multiple meanings. The Hell you just mention, the Greek word only mentioned it once and only once in the bible. The Greek Word tartaroō.
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    QUOTE (bethog @ Apr 5 2009, 05:51 PM)
    And you guys dont think being burned up to never exist anymore is not forever ???????????????????? You must make up your mind . . . is anybody going to burn or not. What does forever means to you?
    My mind has no condradiction it goes with the whole of Gods Word because you dont get the whole picture but a verse here and there you are twisting what I said I never said there was no hell I never said there was no burning I said there is no burning for eterniity (forever) Your only problem is I dont agree with you and frankly thats not my problem.
     
  10. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 5 2009, 10:16 PM)
    My mind has no condradiction it goes with the whole of Gods Word because you dont get the whole picture but a verse here and there you are twisting what I said I never said there was no hell I never said there was no burning I said there is no burning for eterniity (forever) Your only problem is I dont agree with you and frankly thats not my problem.
    The problem is you do not align your beliefs with scripture, nor with the teachings of Christ Himself.
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I repeat Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Now at this point Satan is being tortured day and night But what happens after thisWe now have Judgement this is the white throne judgementRev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Now everyone has been Judged to their fate ... The second death is the death of ones soul without a soul one ceases to exist only God can kill a soul Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Now What happens Satan and those not written in the book of life have been judged to the second death He says he destroys death and hell and makes a New Heaven and New earth there is no sin, no,death no hell in our new World Revelation 211And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.All the old things including death and hell are gone passed away (forever is no longer a relevant term all old things are dead and gone)Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. We will no longer remember this earth this time this age ...So what purpose would there be be for anyone to still be burning and being tortured we would never even remember why this was ...So the only question left is does God get enjoyment from this ?Its not in the nature of God 1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. His only purpose for putting us through this time of trial and tribulation was to rid the World of sin and weed out the tares once that is accomplished ... They are gone cease to exist die the second death .... He makes things New erases our memory Rev22:3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the lastNow if you can find a purpose for bringing the old hell and torture for the past into God New earth I guess you will have to believe in a burning forever But the only reason for it sense we wont remember any of it is for Gods own hate and revenge if you think that is Gods nature your choice but I tell you scripture says this is not possible for God ...QUOTE (watchman @ Apr 5 2009, 08:19 PM)
    The problem is you do not align your beliefs with scripture, nor with the teachings of Christ Himself.
    You opinion I am of the oppisite opinion that its you who does not align wth scripture so it's a mute pointWarning :You and bethog want to make this about persinal attacks instead of scripture I will close this entire thread I am discussing scripture if you are not mature enough to get that without your childish behavior I will end this now ................
     
  12. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 5 2009, 10:16 PM)
    My mind has no condradiction it goes with the whole of Gods Word because you dont get the whole picture but a verse here and there you are twisting what I said I never said there was no hell I never said there was no burning I said there is no burning for eterniity (forever) Your only problem is I dont agree with you and frankly thats not my problem.
    The problem is you do not align your beliefs with scripture, nor with the teachings of Christ Himself.QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 5 2009, 10:25 PM)
    You opinion I am of the oppisite opinion so it a mute point
    It may be mute to you, but I have God's word to support my opinion you dont.
     
  13. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    QUOTE
    Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."New heavens, not heaven. Heavens=Stars, universe etc. If one were to say, heaven is in the universe is mistaken as the universe has a beginning and an end as well as a death.
     
  14. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (bethog @ Apr 5 2009, 10:40 PM)
    QUOTE (Christina @ Apr 5 2009, 10:25 PM)
    Warning :You and bethog want to make this about persinal attacks instead of scripture I will close this entire thread I am discussing scripture if you are not mature enough to get that without your childish behavior I will end this now ................
    I have pointed out from post to post in this thread how your facts have changed and now you are up in arms and warning us.Go ahead and close it. I have noticed that only you are in control and if you can not be, then you delete posts and/or close the threads.No her sayings has never changed... The only thing that changed is in one's mind that s/he (anyone) thinks she has changed it. The same way people do with God's Words because they think He always changes it. Just a misunderstanding of a human's mind.
     
  15. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    Time to calm down people! It's getting close to a personal arguement of who is right and who is not. Let's just sit back, relax a little bit. Maybe go watch some fun videos on youtube or something. Feed the goldfish or get a pop something!
     
  16. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (WhiteKnuckle @ Apr 5 2009, 10:59 PM)
    Time to calm down people! It's getting close to a personal arguement of who is right and who is not. Let's just sit back, relax a little bit. Maybe go watch some fun videos on youtube or something. Feed the goldfish or get a pop something!
    The saddest part is, it mostly always turn into a personal argument. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] You have no idea how bad it hurts for those who rather teach people with scriptures rather than personal attack which is clearly against the rules of this forum. *sigh* Oh well. I have no need to make judgment calls as that is God's job. If they want to falsely accuse me or anyone that wants to teach scriptures... they have their free will. I can't stop them.
     
  17. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    It's rightly so that this should happen. We hold our belief and our understandings of the Lord so close to our hearts. [​IMG] It's a scary thing to have something you hold so firm supposedly discounted, or refuted. [​IMG] It's possible that we see a few things differently thus, "I believe God told me this" [​IMG] someone says, nope that's not what God says, [​IMG] so you begin to wonder, "did God really tell me that?" or "Did God really tell them that?" [​IMG] That's what's so great about this forum so far. [​IMG] We all disagree on something, but the discussions move all of us closer to the truth. [​IMG] It'll all be okay rest assured. [​IMG]
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    There is nothing wrong with having different opinions but we should all be trying to discover Gods one truth and be open to learn if we have missed something along the way and find we are wrong we should be thankful we learned it instead mad because someone else may have been right .....God allows us all to learn at differnt paces some see something right away others can not see it for years... I have found when you just can not quite see something... better to put it on the shelf then just except something you cant quite see.... But some insist its their way or they must attack personally and ruin it for everyone .... The fact is no one knows everything just studying Gods Word is a learning process... thats always progressing. Its When one stops learning stops progressing theres a problem
     
  19. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (bethog @ Apr 5 2009, 11:11 PM)
    QUOTE (Jordan @ Apr 5 2009, 11:03 PM)
    The saddest part is, it mostly always turn into a personal argument. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] You have no idea how bad it hurts for those who rather teach people with scriptures rather than personal attack which is clearly against the rules of this forum. *sigh* Oh well. I have no need to make judgment calls as that is God's job. If they want to falsely accuse me or anyone that wants to teach scriptures... they have their free will. I can't stop them.
    What a scene, you nearly have me in tears. And all the nonsense you have said was misunderstood and you meant to bring the world to salvationThat is correct. People always misunderstood my intentions. My intentions has never changed. Trust me, because of my intentions never changed, I will get personal attacks by those who can not see me. I've been feeling like I'm some invisible child.However, because I preach the deeper study, it's not about me, and about you and the rest of the Body of Christ. Regardless if they don't understand it or not, regardless if they disagree with me or not. This has nothing to do with salvation, but to understand the whole plan of God and be aware of what reality is truly about.I teach this because I care for you all. I teach this because I love you all. The bible has layers of levels on there, not just the surface of the text as men would have you believe that is all to it. But it is not. I will repeat again, if anyone wants to make personal attack or create lies about me, so be it, it's their free will and their soul and I can't stop them from doing so.I love you all.God bless you!
     
  20. TallMan

    TallMan New Member

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    "When the adjective aionios meaning ‘everlasting’ is used in Greek with nouns of action it has reference to the result of the action, not the process. Thus the phrase ‘everlasting punishment’ is comparable to ‘everlasting redemption’ and ‘everlasting salvation,’ both Scriptural phrases. No one supposes that we are being redeemed or being saved forever. We were redeemed and saved once for all by Christ with eternal results. In the same way the lost will not be passing through a process of punishment for ever but will be punished once and for all with eternal results. On the other hand the noun ‘life’ is not a noun of action, but a noun expressing a state. Thus the life itself is eternal."Quoted here.
     
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