"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark"-- Thank you for providing this, Faithful. It flat out states they will have no rest day or night and there is no implication whatsoever that it will ever end for them."except for the fact that its the smoke that rises forever and ever ...and in the New heaven and new earth death and hell are destroyed and there is no night" -- ChristinaRev. 14:11"The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."-- 'no rest day or night' certainly implies there is no end.
Eternal Torment?
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With all due respectThat is talking about the Millennium Reign from Revelation 14 for those who worship Satan as Christ that will have no rest day or night. And if Revelation 14:11 implies there is no end, how can then Christ be Alpha (Beginning) and the Omega? (End) (Revelation 1:8, Revelation 1:11, Revelation 21:6, Revelation 22:13) And the Millennium Reign is not eternal, therefore your view is refuted. It is a pure contradictory to what God says.
"And if Revelation 14:11 implies there is no end, how can then Christ be Alpha (Beginning) and the Omega? (END)" -- Jordan- There will be no end to our time with God, either. Your point just became moot. "The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."-- There is nothing in this scripture, taken alone or in a greater context, that show the 'no rest day or night' to be for a certain period of time and no more.
The Word for forever here is aiōn1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity2) the worlds, universe3) period of time, ageAnd while it can mean eternity ..it can just as easily mean the End of this Age/World So my point here is.. to take the Word as the English means it...as eternity can NOT be the basis for ones belief aloneIn this verse we have 3 possible meanings for the Word 1.An eternity the way we understand the English word2.the End of this World 3. End of this Age To just blindly accept that its meaning #1 gives you a one in 3 chance of being correct ... So how do we come to understand the truth of what God is telling us if we can not be sure of the meaning ..We have to look at the other scriptures Fact one we see we have a New Heaven and Earth that the End of the this old World occur (meaning #2)1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more seaFact 2 We are told there is no more death nor pain nor crying And ALL former thing have passed away again hell and death and the burning torture are former things (meaning #2/#3)4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Fact 3 God makes ALL THINGS NEW ALL Means all not some again this is meaning #2or #35And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.Fact 4 God say he will make and End (Again we have proof of meaning #2 or/and #3) 6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Fact 5 There is no night in this new earth new heavens... How can one suffer Day and Night if there is no Day or night? day and night refers to the condition of the Old world which passes away to the New World (again meaning #2/#3) Fact 6 There is no impurity in the New heavens and New earth ...Those burning are the impure ... So how can impure things still be burning /be tortured in a World and Heavens God say no impure thing will enter? meaning #2/#3 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyoneConclusion- there is no evidence in God Word that any Torture goes on past the End of this age /WorldTo draw any other conclusion you have to completely dismiss any meaning to the Word except meaning #1(English)simply because sometimes the Word does mean #1 ...just as sometimes it means meanings #2 or #3 and the the rest of Gods promises in this chapter ...must be then ignored as not completely true IMHO this simply defies common sense... And any scriptural integrity ..How can we ignore God Promises the other possible meanings of the Word to choose one that has little/ to no Biblical support simply because we speak/understand Englishthats ...akin to saying the Word "Punch" can only mean to hit someone at the party when sometimes its just a refreshing drink.
With all due respect, you are free to believe whatever you want, but clearly you are denying scriptures of Christ being Alpha and the Omega which is written 4 times. And accepting the fact that God can't make anything, in fact ALL things new with forever torment. God says He will make ALL things new... and He can't do that when torment is forever and ever... And He also says former things shall not remembered.I can't make you know these things... only God can only change you. But I will never let a false doctrine goes unchallenged.
"Conclusion- there is no evidence in God Word that any Torture goes on past the End of this age /World" -- ChristinaChristina, no one is refuting the scripture you are providing.The point is, that scripture is talking about what applies to all Christians who are now going to spend eternity with Christ. NOT those who have been condemned. Those that died in their sins will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Jordan, your words ------> "And if Revelation 14:11 implies there is no end, how can then Christ be Alpha (Beginning) and the Omega? (End)."I pointed out that your point is invalid because if you were to apply it the way you say, then our eternity in heaven will one day come to an end, as well.It won't? That's my point. If you were to continue your point, it would mean that since there could be an 'end' then "the smoke of their torture" which "goes up forever and ever" actually has and end date, as well. No? Again, that's my point. God IS the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. But when he uses the term "eternity" that means just that.Saying "And if Revelation 14:11 implies there is no end, how can then Christ be Alpha (Beginning) and the Omega? (End)" makes no point if applied to the eternity he promises Christians. You can't have it both ways. "The smoke from their torture goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."-- Nothing in this scripture implies there is a time the 'no rest day or night' will end. Matthew 25:46 says, "And these will go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life". -- The Alpha and the Omega did not imply an end in this statement. Instead he flat out said just the opposite. I can't make you know these things. Only God can change you...But I will never let false doctrine go unchallenged.
Polar It most certainly does apply if there is a new heaven and a New earth. where might I ask do you think this lake of fire is ? And based on What scripture?And if its some invisable place what is the point ? Do you think our Loving father would be the same God that would get pleasure out of Torturing people forever ? I dare say thats not the God I know ? And where would we find any proof for any of this except based on your English understanding of a Word? God says he has foretold us all things.
"where might I ask do you think this lake of fire is ? And based on What scripture?" -- Christina-- Christina, this is what your argument has been reduced to? Discussing actual geography?Rev. 20:15 -- "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE."You are going to have to ask God for longitude and latitude.But if it is the term "lake of fire" that bothers you, try this:Matt. 25:41 -- ""Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"Better?"Do you think out Loving father would be the same God that would get pleasure out of Torturing people forever" -- Christina.-- Who said anything about "taking pleasure" out of doing it? He gave His life to prevent people from having this fate, paying the price for all those who would repent and turn away from sin. Does this sound like someone who would "take pleasure" in something like that?No one even implied that God would "take pleasure out of torturing people." Your comment is intentionally misleading and beneath you.
No Im asking you to clarify on what basis you are making your statement that you are not questioning the scripture I gave yet come to the conclusion that there is burning forever ? And your reasoning is.Your statement was: The point is, that scripture is talking about what applies to all Christians who are now going to spend eternity with Christ. NOT those who have been condemned. Those that died in their sins will spend eternity in the lake of fire. My scripture is about what happens to the earth and the Heavens (universe) God says he makes all things New ..If You insistthat this Lake of fire exists after God says ALL things are made New ..You should be able to prove your statement and if your proof is back to the one Word in that scripture that says forever ... Then you are chosing to ignore the other meaning so you can not then also say you agree with the scripture ...It can not be both ways ...Maybe you should carefully reread my post to see what Im saying
"You should be able to prove your statement" -- Christina-- I did, providing scripture that you seem to want to dismiss instead of address."My scripture is about what happens to the earth and the Heavens (universe) God says he makes all things New ..If You insistthat this Lake of fire exists after God says ALL things are made New .." -- Christina-- Christina, God said they would be "thrown into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." He said it, I didn't.Perhaps you should be asking yourself why your scripture doesn't jive with that.The answer is simple. The "New Heaven and Earth" will be for the sheep. The ones that weren't cast into the lake of fire...or, if you prefer "eternal fire."I provided scripture just like you did, just as valid as yours is. I even tell you how your scripture is correct....but you chose to ignore the scripture I provide. What exactly makes the scripture I provide invalid? That it disagrees with yours?I don't think you want to start that. That argument cuts both ways. Your scripture describes the "no eye has seen nor ear has heard" portion of what "God has prepared for those who love Him."Those who haven't loved Him - those who have died in sin - won't be there. They will be enduring the fate of all who chose not to follow Christ. Just how can you negate this scripture:"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the ETERNAL FIRE which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"Or Matt. 25:46 -- ""These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life."-- Where exactly is the ambiguity here?
Well, let me put the question this way? What powers the lake of fire?
Notice that the chaff is burnt up; that in its very nature implies an end. The Lord will purge; all will be tried by fire -- note that everyman's work will be. As the Hebrews 12:29 states, that fire is YHVH. That fire is eternal, and unquenchable.
Remember, don't fear the one that can kill the body, fear the one that can kill the soul. Why would God threaten an action that will never happen, asserting that the Lake of Fire equals eternal torture?
To understand that statement,... we must study the Greekword "aionos".Hebrews 1:2 states, … God has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He has appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds; … The English word “worlds” in this passage comes from the Greek word "aion" in its plural form, meaning AGES. This passage of scripture should have been properly translated … by Whom also He made the AGES … As we have just stated, the word "aion" means an age or ages, referring to a period or periods of TIME, whether short or long. The word “worlds” in this passage is a bad translation, not properly conveying or bringing out the correct meaning of the word "aion". With this in mind, let us now absorb what is being stated here in this passage.This scripture states that Jesus Christ made the ages. We must understand that God’s plan is a plan of ages which does have a beginning and an ending. Having an understanding of God’s plan of the ages will set you free from the empty teachings of religion, which offer no explanation of God having any PURPOSE for the creation, whether it be past, present, or future. What is God’s plan of the ages? Does He have a PURPOSE and a plan? The saved are represented as that they shall not come into condemnation, shall have a part in the first resurrection, shall reign in life with Christ, shall be priests or communicators of divine grace to others, having received abundance of grace for that purpose: whereas the restored will be condemned, cast into the lake of fire and brimstone ( a spiritual fire for the purpose of divine purification ) in the future age of judgment, wherein they will receive many or few stripes ( spiritually speaking ) in proportion to their criminality, and until subdued they shall not see the light: thus God may truly be said to be THE RESTORER OF ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY OF THE FAITHFUL.” Once you can grasp the concept of ages and dispensations, including those that are still yet to come (Ephesians 2:7 ), you will see that God’s punishments, judgments, and wrath are for a period of time, but not forever. They are for the purpose of correction and are age-lasting, or it could be said that they are “of the ages” ( "aionios" ). GOD’S WRATH AND MAN’S TORMENT ARE NOT FOREVER, BUT AGE-LASTING!WHAT A LOVING GOD!!!His purpose of the ages begins with Adam and ends when HIS CONSUMING LAKE OF FIRE has burned up all the wood, hay, and stubble in every man, for this is the SECOND DEATH. The good news is that the LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE DESTROYED IS DEATH, INCLUDING THE SECOND DEATH, WHICH IS DEATH AND HELL CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. The lake of fire ( God's consuming fire ) is THE DEATH OF DEATH. It is the end of death and hell ( the carnal mind and the triumph of the grave ), SIGNIFYING THE TIME WHEN GOD SHALL BE ALL IN ALL!!!Here is a list of the recognized DISPENSATIONS that are to be found contained within the AGES of time:1. INNOCENCE2. CONSCIENCE3. HUMAN GOVERNMENT4. PROMISE5. LAW6. GRACE ( ALSO RECOGNIZED AS CHURCH )7. KINGDOM ( ALSO RECOGNIZED AS THE MILLENNIUM )8. THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIMES ( ALSO REFERRED TO AS THE AGE OF THE AGES )-Let God show you the awesomeness of HIS BEAUTIFUL PURPOSE! It consists of:1. FORMER AGES ( COLOSSIANS 1:26 )2. THE PRESENT AGE ( MATTHEW 12:32 )3. THE APPROACHING AGE ( MARK 10:30 )4. AGES TO COME ( EPHESIANS 2:7 )5. THE END OF THE AGE ( MATTHEW 28:20 )6. THE ENDS OF THE AGES ( 1ST CORINTHIANS 10:11 )-HIS PURPOSE ( PLAN ) OF THE AGES IS BIGGER THAN YOU HAVE EVER IMAGINED! 2 [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter. Logabe
WRATH AND MAN’S TORMENT ARE NOT FOREVER, BUT AGE-LASTING! right Logabe There is no Biblical evidence any Torment or burning Lasts beyond the end of the Age/World Only those who insist that Greek word has only one meaning and its our English meaning could possibly believe thisand it completely goes against scripture and for those who say... The New earth and New Heavens is only about Christians,has not read the chapter or does not understand it correctly This is ALL things New a New universe if you will a New Age ALL former things including the Lake of fire are gone and forgotten That's why in the same Rev.21 God says its the second death for the sinful Not eternal burning... the punishment is permanent ... meaning it can not be undone ..not the torturing That's why its called the second Death
Matt. 25:46 -- ""These will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into eternal life."-- So far, what has been posted does not explain away this scripture. The multiple (seemingly unending) discussions on the word 'aionios' I have either done through correspondence, sat through or teleconferenced though always end up being circular and left open for further discussion.It always comes down to this, a scripture mentioned earlier:"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end."-- Note it doesn't say He brings the end. It says He IS the end.Does God have a beginning and an end? No, of course not.He always was. But the word says "end" implying a finishing point. How can this be then?Matt. 25:41 does not mean a "period of time" fire.Matt. 25:46 does not mean a "period of time" punishment.
I dont see there is much to explain ... The punishment is final the second death can not be undone this isnt talking about Eternal Torment.... its the final punishment of the second death ..... To cease to exist .... All impure things will die the second death cease to exist ... If you die tomorrow your flesh body has received its eternal punishment .... that is it ceases .... it does not keep dying its dead......gone ... If we overcome to the End we are of the first resurrected eternally saved ...we do not keep being saved ..it is done
Just to add some food for thought,in John 3:15,That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. The word "eternal" in the (Greek #166)is aionios, which means an age, just to keep it simple. Now,let's read it like a greek speaking person wouldtranslate it.That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have age-abiding life. What in the worldam I talking about?Just exactly what Jesus is saying...there is no timein eternity...so what Jesus was really saying, mostof us miss.He was saying if you truly believe...you will notperish to the AGE or STAY IN THE GRAVE in the FirstResurrection. You will have "LIFE EARLY" instead ofwaiting until after the Tabernacles Age. What does that mean? It simply means you will be livingamong people with mortal bodies while you will have yourimmortal body. You will have access to eternity but youwill also have access to "TIME" (Ezekiel 44:17).Age-abiding life brings a whole new horizen to a personwhen God alluminate"s them to see it...He has laid out these AGES just for you.So, when you see eternity, ever, forever, world, foreverand ever ect., most of the time it is talking about anaionios or "age-abiding" life and in the negative it isan age-abiding punishment. Proverbs 25:2 says,2 [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter. Logabe
Revelation 149) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. NowThis next part takes place AFTER the 1000 year reign, so THINK ABOUT THIS8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.ConclusionThe devil was thrown in the lake of fire after the 1000 year reign, and the scripture says the the devil "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Also to note, they whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into THE SAME LAKE OF FIRE. Now Look at Revelation 14:11, "up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night", if this punishment were before the 1000 year reign, then their torment could not be for ever and ever because of Great White throne judgement day. Thus we can conclude that all those that take the mark of the beast and worship his image wil be cast into the lake of fire after Great White throne Judgment were satan will also be, and WILL burn for ever and ever. Look over this carefully. If you still think that the Lake of fire will not be for ever and ever now, you are leaning to your own understanding and against scripture. I hope now you understand the truth of this if you haven't already.
Copper, the word forever and ever in many scripture does not meant for eternity. It is a limited period of time... forever and ever when it comes to the Lake of Fire... it means cease to exist. God does not enjoy having a revenge to torture and burn His children forever and ever (eternity)It is a one time punishment that is eternity... that "Eternity" means cease to exist... Satan, one of God's son will cease to exist on Judgment Day, even though Satan is already judged by God to his death of his own soul. And Satan will not be remembered in the future, after Judgment Day.
Jordan, I am sorry to say it but you couldn't be more incorrect.Copper is spot on. There is no way, short of throwing out your back, of twisting "shall be tormented day and night forever and ever" into "Satan will cease to exist."Period.
With all due respect, How about you explained these scriptures (Ezekiel 18:4, 20, Matthew 10:28) to God at Judgment Day? Cause there is NO way I am going to believe in men's interpretation over God's Words and His teaching. I have no view whatsoever, only God's Words.
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