Eve in the Garden

[Hidden In Him]

I disagree with the fact that you say Jehovah God purpose included sin and death. That it included an Angel to become a Satan and a devil. The scriptures show us that nothing evil originates from God, but you are saying that all the evil, the wars, murders, sexual immorality, all evil existed in the mind of Jehovah God before he created anything then he put all that in motion when he began to create.

Greetings, Barney.

I actually like several of your posts in this thread, though to some extent I side with CoreIssue on the issue of God's foreknowledge (but certainly not on the sex thing). I believe He knew in His foreknowledge that His creation would eventually sin, and with it would come all the evils that transpired afterwards, but the way you put the above makes it sound like this was His will. The scripture states clearly that God would that all be saved, not perish.

I think of God in terms of the analogies He Himself encouraged us to use. He speaks of Himself as our Father, and like a human father He knew that those who loved Him would eventually stub their toes and get some bumps and bruises, so to speak, but that they would be healed from those things through the provision He would make. He also knew what would become of those who rejected Him as their Father, but this did not discourage Him from creating man anyway because of the hopes and intentions He had for those who would love Him and worship Him. Was it His will that some reject Him? Of course not. He loves mankind, and does not want any to perish...

I believe when all is said and done that the creation of man will bring tremendous joy to both God and His creation.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

At 1John 1:1 I believe that John was speaking about The Only-begotten Son of God when he said, " that which was from the beginning." which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life". As I said John was talking about the Only-begotten Son, not God. God has no beginning .John knew that the Only-begotten Son of God was the beginning of God's creation. Revelation 3:14

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

You say that the title son isn't a person. That I disagree with God is a person and we all, spiritual being and flesh and blood beings are persons.

 

[Trekson]

There's no Biblical evidence of what you are saying here.

there is no "biblical" evidence that squirrels exist, yet they're all around.

 

[Trekson]

Where does the scriptures say that?

Gen. 3:16 implies it. If Eve had never had children how would she know the difference after the curse? You can't multiply from zero.

 

[Trekson]

I disagree. There is zero mention of children in the garden. If there were they did not eat from the tree so they would've still been in the garden and no guard been put on it and it would've been populated afterwords for who knows how long.

Zero record in the Bible of any descendents of Adam and Eve except those listed in Genesis.

That kind of impact on history could not have gone unnoticed.

Who says it had. First, there were probably so many they had already left the garden. That would identify who Cain was concerned about after he was cursed, "the others". They would be a more logical identity to who the "sons of God" were instead of fallen angels, which there is no "biblical" evidence that they could procreate. Where else would Cain's wife have come from, Gen. 4:17? It's in the bible, you just have to open your eyes to see it. Atlantis is also a possibility.

 

[Trekson]

Genesis 3:16 New International Version (NIV)
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.

New Living Bible Genesis 3:16- Then he said to the woman I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.

Other Bibles say similarly concerning Genesis 3:16. I disagree with anyone who reasons that just because God increased Eve pain in pregnancy that means Eve had children before she sin.

How would she know if it had increased/sharpened with nothing to measure it against? How did she even know what pregnancy was?

 

[Trekson]

While I agree God's Only-begotten Son is superior to all others in creation that doesn't mean God's Only-begotten Son wasn't created or produced by God. The scripture Colossians 1:19 which you conveniently left out shows that it was God's decision to make his Only-begotten Son superior to all others in creation. God isn't given this superiority he has always had this superiority or divine fullness because he is God. Colossians 1:18 shows that God's Only-begotten Son was the first to be resurrected from the common grave of mankind and given immortality and inherit incorruption.

As a trinitarian I believe the bible speaks of the triune Godhead right from the beginning. Gen. 1:26, Let "us" make man after "our" image, etc. I firmly believe that when we get to heaven we will know three distinct identities yet recognize them with a unity so strong that they will be one. It's all about unity.

 

[Enoch111]

How would she know if it had increased/sharpened with nothing to measure it against? How did she even know what pregnancy was?

Eve did not need to know anything beforehand. The implied truth was that had she been obedient childbirth would have been painless for her and all women.

There were absolutely children born to her until AFTER the Fall. Let's not get into mythical and fantastical ideas which have zero support in Scripture.

 

[Dave L]

I guess I don't understand your point. We are a wicked species? Adam and Eve were not wicked prior to their disobedience:

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31

God provided men with the ability to create wickedness or to become wicked and they used their ability that way, but this did not make them intrinsically wicked as I understand it. This was them using the dominion that God had given them in a manner He warned them not to follow.

God created Adam perfectly sinless. But as soon as he gave Adam a law, it created a desire to sin, which he followed through with. We are cut from the same cloth. And Paul says in Adam we all die. But free will needs a living human spirit which Adam and we lost. Being born spiritually dead, we can do nothing but sin unless born again. So even the best works are sinful if not of Faith produced in the New Birth by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

What I don't understan


You are saying what, God created a wicked person when he created the Angel that became a Satan and a devil and God created a wicked human when he created Adam?

God created all "good" knowing they would become wicked.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply,

About 30 years after his birth as a human, when he was immersed by John the Baptizer, God’s spirit came upon Jesus and God spoke, saying: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.” (Lu 3:21-23; Mt 3:16, 17) Evidently Jesus, the man, was then “born again” to be a spiritual Son with the hope of returning to life in heaven, and he was anointed by spirit to be God’s appointed king and high priest. (Joh 3:3-6; compare 17:4, 5.

first, Jesus the spirit is not BORN, second, God spoke at our Lord's baptism? .. God spoke?, ERROR, the scripture states "A VOICE". never assume anything. scripture, John 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape". now we ask you, can JESUS lie? God forbid. the scriptures clearly states "A VOICE" spoke from heaven, and we have biblecial evidence that states that an angel of the LORD can speak from heaven on God behalf. so now, unless you're prepared to dispute with the Saviour, we suggest you follow his word. say what he says.

Trinitarians say that “first-born” here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons.

First, why ask us about the trinity and its doctrine when we're not Trinitarians?. second, as the apostle Paul said, by way of the Holy Ghost, we have no such customs in the church. God is not created, nor his Spirit, who is him. the only thing that was made, was the body that he came in. supportive scripture, Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me".
as for first born, it's not biological. BORN is having a natural ability to do a particular job or task. God have the ability to "CREATE" as in the NEW CREATION", he is the "FIRST" from the DEAD. and he has the "ABILITY" to BEGIN a NEW BIRTH, or a NEW CREATION. supportive scripture, Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful".

Does Colossians 1:16, 17 (RS) exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says “in him all things were created . . . all things were created through him and for him”? The Greek word here rendered “all things” is panʹta, an inflected form of pas. At Luke 13:2, RS renders this “all . . . other”; JB reads “any other”; NE says “anyone else.” (See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to panʹta at Colossians 1:16, 17so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God.

well we will set your mind at ease. John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made".

do you understand that verse. he, Jesus God, the Holy Spirit, the LORD "MADE" ..... "ALL THINGS". and without him was NOTHING MADE. now this,
Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself"
Alone, and by myself exclude any "OTHER". so the "JB" is in ERROR to the Scriptures. we suggest you stick to what the bible say. so Jesus the WORD was not created, he God, JESUS, the Holy Spirit creates all things.

Rev. 1:1; 3:14, RS: “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him . . . ‘And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: “The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning [Greek, ar·kheʹ] of God’s creation.”’” (KJ, Dy, CC, and NW, as well as others, read similarly.) Is that rendering correct?

(smile), he has the preeminence, as he did in Genesis 1:1 when he created all things. but here all things are NEW.

The logical conclusion is that the one being quoted at Revelation 3:14 is a creation, the first of God’s creations, that he had a beginning. Compare Proverbs 8:22, where, as many Bible commentators agree, the Son is referred to as wisdom personified. According to RS, NE, and JB, the one there speaking is said to be “created.”)

ERROR in the logic. see the one speaking here is the Spirit ...... (smile). how do we know this? ok, let the bible speak. who addressed all of the seven churches.... JESUS right.... right. did you notice how every letter ends? let hear it for yourself, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

now let's get the logic clear, and straight. it is the Spirit that is addressing the churches, yes, JESUS is the Spirit, GLORIFIED in the NEW BODY, and yes, he is God, for God is a Spirit, (John 4:24a). supportive scripture, John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God". did Thomas lie? no, God forbid. did the Lord Jesus corrected Thomas by saying NO I'M NOT GOD. no, for he is Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

so the logic is this, "is God created?". ...... we'll leave that answer to you..... (smile).
please read all the 7 letters to the churches in revelation, chapter 2 & 3. each is address by the Lord Jesus, but each ends as the Spirit speaking. that's the true Logic to those scriptures, Jesus is God in flesh, now glorified flesh.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. I always wondered where Cain went after murdering Able if they were the only people in the world, and why he would need a mark for people not to kill him. This is an interesting thought. So many of these interesting things to find out one day.

first thanks for your reply, you're 100% correct. by knowing that Adam and Eve had children in the Garden before they had Cain and Able outside the garden explain where, and how Cain got his wife. remember Cain "KNEW" his wife when he was exile into Nod. so that means he was already married to her.

it also confirm who the "sons of God" are in Genesis chapter 6. a son of God is alive to God Spiritually. this is why and How Eve got her Personal name... "EVE". many names in the bible carry a meaning. and "Eve" is one of the biggest. scripture, from the (KJV), Genesis 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living".

#1. no one calls a woman "Mother" unless she had children.

#2. the name Eve means "Mother" of all "LIVING". this is a dead give away. why "LIVING?". because all the children she had while in the Garden was "ALIVE" to God spiritually. that's why all of us, who are in the fallen line from Adam, needs to be "BORN AGAIN, or BORN from ABOVE".
see Genesis gives us so many clues to this fact of children in the Garden. this is why in Genesis 6 thes men was called "sons of God", as we today who are born again are called "sons of God", scriptures, 1 John 3:1 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is".

yes, the bible gives us clues as to who we are. pardise lost, .... now regained.

understand, the bible was written to us, the fallen line from Adam. this whole record, called the bible, is our heritage in God, in HISTORY. this is a Family History book of us. it let us find our REAL "FATHER", and it let's us know who is really our brothers and sisters in our GENERATIONS. it's like, Family tree.com

all we have to do is take the test, and it cost nothing, no money, scripture, Isaiah 55:1 "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price".

PS, side note: this is what happen to five of the ten virgins when the Lord came. they went to buy, and it was no need to. .... (smile), we hope many got that.

but yes, the bible is OUR heritage history book in God. we're not ALONE. we have a FATHER, and he is GOD almighty, JESUS.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

You say Jesus isn't created, but the scriptures continue to show that God is the only one who isn't a created being or doesn't have a beginning. Jesus isn't God. Colossians 1:15 shows that Jesus is the first born of creation.

let's see what the scriptures says concering Jesus,
1 Timothy 6:13 "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

now BARNEY, if the Lord Jesus is the "ONLY" one who has "IMMORTALITY", that exclude everyone else. because ONLY means ONE or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively. and the scriptures clearly states "JESUS" is that ONE who has it.

now what do "IMMORTALITY" means? the ability to live forever; eternal life. this is synonyms with, perpetuity, timeless, permanence, say what? deathlessness, indestructibility ... must we go on. we believe you get the point.

now if the Lord Jesus is the "ONLY" one who has it, that eliminates him as any creation.... ok.

we suggest you read those scriptures for yourself.
PICJAG.

 

[Mayflower]

first thanks for your reply, you're 100% correct. by knowing that Adam and Eve had children in the Garden before they had Cain and Able outside the garden explain where, and how Cain got his wife. remember Cain "KNEW" his wife when he was exile into Nod. so that means he was already married to her.

it also confirm who the "sons of God" are in Genesis chapter 6. a son of God is alive to God Spiritually. this is why and How Eve got her Personal name... "EVE". many names in the bible carry a meaning. and "Eve" is one of the biggest. scripture, from the (KJV), Genesis 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living".

#1. no one calls a woman "Mother" unless she had children.

#2. the name Eve means "Mother" of all "LIVING". this is a dead give away. why "LIVING?". because all the children she had while in the Garden was "ALIVE" to God spiritually. that's why all of us, who are in the fallen line from Adam, needs to be "BORN AGAIN, or BORN from ABOVE".
see Genesis gives us so many clues to this fact of children in the Garden. this is why in Genesis 6 thes men was called "sons of God", as we today who are born again are called "sons of God", scriptures, 1 John 3:1 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is".

yes, the bible gives us clues as to who we are. pardise lost, .... now regained.

understand, the bible was written to us, the fallen line from Adam. this whole record, called the bible, is our heritage in God, in HISTORY. this is a Family History book of us. it let us find our REAL "FATHER", and it let's us know who is really our brothers and sisters in our GENERATIONS. it's like, Family tree.com

all we have to do is take the test, and it cost nothing, no money, scripture, Isaiah 55:1 "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price".

PS, side note: this is what happen to five of the ten virgins when the Lord came. they went to buy, and it was no need to. .... (smile), we hope many got that.

but yes, the bible is OUR heritage history book in God. we're not ALONE. we have a FATHER, and he is GOD almighty, JESUS.

PICJAG.

Family tree.com haha that is great! Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[bbyrd009]

As a trinitarian I believe the bible speaks of the triune Godhead right from the beginning. Gen. 1:26, Let "us" make man after "our" image, etc. I firmly believe that when we get to heaven we will know three distinct identities yet recognize them with a unity so strong that they will be one. It's all about unity.

John 3:13 Lexicon: "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

 

[amadeus]

God created Adam perfectly sinless. But as soon as he gave Adam a law, it created a desire to sin, which he followed through with. We are cut from the same cloth. And Paul says in Adam we all die. But free will needs a living human spirit which Adam and we lost. Being born spiritually dead, we can do nothing but sin unless born again. So even the best works are sinful if not of Faith produced in the New Birth by the Holy Spirit.

Thank you for that. It explains somewhat of where you are coming from. I see perhaps much of the same thing, but I have obviously I guess been led differently. For God are they both the highway of holiness?

 

[Dave L]

Thank you for that. It explains somewhat of where you are coming from. I see perhaps much of the same thing, but I have obviously I guess been led differently. For God are they both the highway of holiness?

As I understand, Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit apart from which we perform the best of our good works for the wrong reasons. But in the New Birth and especially after the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, we receive a new nature that produces good works for the right reasons.

 

[CoreIssue]

Who says it had. First, there were probably so many they had already left the garden. That would identify who Cain was concerned about after he was cursed, "the others". They would be a more logical identity to who the "sons of God" were instead of fallen angels, which there is no "biblical" evidence that they could procreate. Where else would Cain's wife have come from, Gen. 4:17? It's in the bible, you just have to open your eyes to see it. Atlantis is also a possibility.

Cain married his sister.

Population estimates run from 10 million to a few billion.

Remember the people at that time had many more years of reproductive lifespan than after the flood.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

first thanks for the reply, second, you have a right to believe what you want.


this is a scientific fact. if I was sitting still, (no movement) in a car, I cannot increase my speed until I move.

but as said you have a right to your own oponion. ......

PICJAG.

I don't believe it to be a scientific fact just you and others say so.