Evolution and Clothes

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Stranger

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To any evolutionists who are here;

If evolution were true, and animals changed and adapted according to survival in the elements, why would they leave their fur and feathers, which provide much better for them then the bare skin of man?

And, where did the shame come from in being naked in front of others? Animals don't have it.

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

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Well,

Stranger said:
To any evolutionists who are here;

If evolution were true, and animals changed and adapted according to survival in the elements, why would they leave their fur and feathers, which provide much better for them then the bare skin of man?
this q is not too clear, are you essentially asking why man has bare skin, if fur worked better? Of course people are still born with this fur, sometimes.


And, where did the shame come from in being naked in front of others? Animals don't have it.

Stranger
A great question! It seems to me that it was pretty obviously gnossis, knowledge, eating from the "tree of knowledge" (or getting a forebrain, in mating with a Neandertal, perhaps, dunno, doesn't matter), understanding the Scriptural definition of "knowledge" being central here, leading to self-awareness, free will, conscience, shame, etc.
 

Stranger

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bbyrd009 said:
Well,

this q is not too clear, are you essentially asking why man has bare skin, if fur worked better? Of course people are still born with this fur, sometimes.


A great question! It seems to me that it was pretty obviously gnossis, knowledge, eating from the "tree of knowledge" (or getting a forebrain, in mating with a Neandertal, perhaps, dunno, doesn't matter), understanding the Scriptural definition of "knowledge" being central here, leading to self-awareness, free will, conscience, shame, etc.
Evolution teaches that there is a change when there is a need. But there is nothing more better to endure the climate it is under than the animals fur or feathers. And nothing is more dependent on clothes to protect from heat and cold then the skin of man. Which begs the question why? Why would animals evolve from a better and greater skin to that which man has? And why does man always have to be covered?

The answer is of course that the theory of evolution doesn't make sense.

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bbyrd009

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Stranger said:
Evolution teaches that there is a change when there is a need. But there is nothing more better to endure the climate it is under than the animals fur or feathers. And nothing is more dependent on clothes to protect from heat and cold then the skin of man. Which begs the question why? Why would animals evolve from a better and greater skin to that which man has? And why does man always have to be covered?

The answer is of course that the theory of evolution doesn't make sense.

Stranger
well again, there are still humans born with fur; but, to answer your question, does not evolution also show us that traits that are no longer useful for survival atrophy, and wither away?
 

Stranger

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bbyrd009 said:
well again, there are still humans born with fur; but, to answer your question, does not evolution also show us that traits that are no longer useful for survival atrophy, and wither away?
Not hardly. No matter how much hair man may have, it does not protect from the elements as the animals do.

Do you believe evolution is true and shows us anything?

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bbyrd009

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Stranger said:
Not hardly. No matter how much hair man may have, it does not protect from the elements as the animals do.

Do you believe evolution is true and shows us anything?

Stranger
yes, but i would rather agree that the story is truthful, just like it is, when understood as a spiritual primer for each of us, today. Which is quite possibly another feature of mythology, as long as it is not dissected for "facts." The story imparts spiritual truth, just as it stands; and imo the "fact-searching" is just a way to miss the point. I have no problems with Creational Evolutionaryism, or whatever. Science tells me we mated with Denisovans, and Neandertals; we "knew" them, Scripturally speaking. But this took a long time, and though it does bear fruit, I don't want to insist on the perspective anymore, as no one's mind gets changed that way, anyway, and we have much more to agree on, than disagree on imo.

I don't think the statement "Not hardly. No matter how much hair man may have, it does not protect from the elements as the animals do. " will hold much water, wadr, just ask a girl with long hair how hot it is in the summer; and see what you will see.
 

Stranger

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bbyrd009 said:
yes, but i would rather agree that the story is truthful, just like it is, when understood as a spiritual primer for each of us, today. Which is quite possibly another feature of mythology, as long as it is not dissected for "facts." The story imparts spiritual truth, just as it stands; and imo the "fact-searching" is just a way to miss the point. I have no problems with Creational Evolutionaryism, or whatever. Science tells me we mated with Denisovans, and Neandertals; we "knew" them, Scripturally speaking. But this took a long time, and though it does bear fruit, I don't want to insist on the perspective anymore, as no one's mind gets changed that way, anyway, and we have much more to agree on, than disagree on imo.

I don't think the statement "Not hardly. No matter how much hair man may have, it does not protect from the elements as the animals do. " will hold much water, wadr, just ask a girl with long hair how hot it is in the summer; and see what you will see.
If the 'story' is evolution, then it is not truthful. There is no truth in it. I think we disagree more than you realize.

A woman with long hair is no parallel to an animals fur and hide. Iv'e raised animals. There is no comparison. Put a person with long hair tied outside with no shelter or clothes in 31 degree F weather, along with a dog that is tied also, both separated so they can't receive the warmth from the other. Set them outside all night, and see who is alive in the morning.

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

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Stranger said:
If the 'story' is evolution, then it is not truthful. There is no truth in it. I think we disagree more than you realize.
you say this, but you know that the story is condensed wisdom, and i did not insist at all that it was evolution, understand; i have just found parallels that make that a possibility, and after all it has very little bearing upon my works unto rebound, my seeking after Christ. I could fill the page with arguments like that "dust of the earth" image, or the lady with fur image, maybe bring testimonies by people with fur, describing how hot it is in the summer, or we could take a poll, maybe, or examine how dogs came from wolves, or how coywolves came from coyotes and wolves, but imo all these would be purposely avoiding the real lesson, the spiritual one, which is contained just fine in the literal reading of the passage, with the understanding that you are reading something that is alive, and can be read differently later. As long as you don't start knowing, because then you are done. You say there is no truth in it, and i say that i would not presume to know what truth looks like, wadr. Absolute truth would surely kill me right now. See that it is kind of a humility/pride thing, and you end up spending a lot of energy on things that you can't prove anyway, and they can't prove their pov...and this should be a sign, that you are now involved in mental masturbation, and not even discussing or reflecting upon the real lesson. I'm perfectly fine with A&E not having navels, and Eve eating an apple from a literal tree, after literally talking to what became a snake, etc, if that is where you are at. All i can suggest is that there are other interpretations, eating from a "tree of knowledge" might indicate some other, more spiritually meaningful action, which even you might agree with, and on from there.

If the point is just to gather arcane knowledge, without fruit, that will become apparent, too. And that can be very appealing, i have been sucked into that, and might be again, who knows. Invariably those lead you away from the Book though, and don't produce fruit, works unto rebound iow, which actually encompass much more than not sinning btw, i am not "sinning" when i ignore some little thing that i could do the night before, whatever it is, that i notice coming up most every evening at about this certain time, say, that would remove some stress that i note the girls are going through the next morning--which is really on them, they left it there, and i am the man of the house, after all--until i am shown that i could just do this little thing anyway, on the way out for my evening smoke--or not do something, even, whatever--and relieve the morning stress, which i see that i was actually ignoring it on purpose, so i could have a "teaching" moment, or a "superior" moment, that next morning, so, been plowing my own ground there for years, a la Cain, and just irritating the women--because of course i was "right"--when all i needed was to understand that i am Eve, in a sense, or that in this case that i can be "a woman, chattering in church," too, and of course i always ignored those passages because they were supposed to be about Paul admonishing actual women about talking in actual churches. Lol.

anyway, don't know how clear that is, but the point is that if it doesn't produce fruit, prune it off. A literal understanding is fine, at one stage, and becomes inappropriate after a time. I just watched a video, going around right now, two pre-schoolers arguing, coming to blows basically, about whether it was "raining" or "sprinkling" out. Adults aren't much different, i guess.
 

bbyrd009

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Stranger said:
Put a person with long hair tied outside with no shelter or clothes in 31 degree F weather, along with a dog that is tied also, both separated so they can't receive the warmth from the other. Set them outside all night, and see who is alive in the morning.

Stranger
see, thing is, there, is that the human has a forebrain, and is going to figure out how to get untied, or whatever, going to use its brain, whereas the dog needs the fur, because it does not have ten virgins working for it. :)
 

Stranger

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bbyrd009 said:
you say this, but you know that the story is condensed wisdom, and i did not insist at all that it was evolution, understand; i have just found parallels that make that a possibility, and after all it has very little bearing upon my works unto rebound, my seeking after Christ. I could fill the page with arguments like that "dust of the earth" image, or the lady with fur image, maybe bring testimonies by people with fur, describing how hot it is in the summer, or we could take a poll, maybe, or examine how dogs came from wolves, or how coywolves came from coyotes and wolves, but imo all these would be purposely avoiding the real lesson, the spiritual one, which is contained just fine in the literal reading of the passage, with the understanding that you are reading something that is alive, and can be read differently later. As long as you don't start knowing, because then you are done. You say there is no truth in it, and i say that i would not presume to know what truth looks like, wadr. Absolute truth would surely kill me right now. See that it is kind of a humility/pride thing, and you end up spending a lot of energy on things that you can't prove anyway, and they can't prove their pov...and this should be a sign, that you are now involved in mental masturbation, and not even discussing or reflecting upon the real lesson. I'm perfectly fine with A&E not having navels, and Eve eating an apple from a literal tree, after literally talking to what became a snake, etc, if that is where you are at. All i can suggest is that there are other interpretations, eating from a "tree of knowledge" might indicate some other, more spiritually meaningful action, which even you might agree with, and on from there.

If the point is just to gather arcane knowledge, without fruit, that will become apparent, too. And that can be very appealing, i have been sucked into that, and might be again, who knows. Invariably those lead you away from the Book though, and don't produce fruit, works unto rebound iow, which actually encompass much more than not sinning btw, i am not "sinning" when i ignore some little thing that i could do the night before, whatever it is, that i notice coming up most every evening at about this certain time, say, that would remove some stress that i note the girls are going through the next morning--which is really on them, they left it there, and i am the man of the house, after all--until i am shown that i could just do this little thing anyway, on the way out for my evening smoke--or not do something, even, whatever--and relieve the morning stress, which i see that i was actually ignoring it on purpose, so i could have a "teaching" moment, or a "superior" moment, that next morning, so, been plowing my own ground there for years, a la Cain, and just irritating the women--because of course i was "right"--when all i needed was to understand that i am Eve, in a sense, or that in this case that i can be "a woman, chattering in church," too, and of course i always ignored those passages because they were supposed to be about Paul admonishing actual women about talking in actual churches. Lol.

anyway, don't know how clear that is, but the point is that if it doesn't produce fruit, prune it off. A literal understanding is fine, at one stage, and becomes inappropriate after a time. I just watched a video, going around right now, two pre-schoolers arguing, coming to blows basically, about whether it was "raining" or "sprinkling" out. Adults aren't much different, i guess.
Evolution is not a possibility. And, what you write is not clear at all. Your rambling does nothing to support what you say. You are trying to make up in volume what you lack in knowledge.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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bbyrd009 said:
see, thing is, there, is that the human has a forebrain, and is going to figure out how to get untied, or whatever, going to use its brain, whereas the dog needs the fur, because it does not have ten virgins working for it. :)
The point made was the fur and hide of the animal being superior to that of the skin of man. Which contradicts evolution. We are not talking about the brain.

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bbyrd009

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Stranger said:
The point made was the fur and hide of the animal being superior to that of the skin of man. Which contradicts evolution. We are not talking about the brain.

Stranger
The point was made that humans are still born with fur, too. Traits either atrophy and go into recession when they are no longer needed for survival, or they do not. And if they do, then thin, unfurry skin should at least be contemplated as a possibility of being able to build a fire in a cave, and don an animal skin; and a remarked improvement in the summer, prolly. But see that if you begin by needing evolution to be contradicted, then all you will be able to absorb is concepts that contradict evolution. How do you address our mom sleeping with Neandertals and Denisovans? For instance. Rhetorical, if you like.
 

Stranger

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bbyrd009 said:
The point was made that humans are still born with fur, too. Traits either atrophy and go into recession when they are no longer needed for survival, or they do not. And if they do, then thin, unfurry skin should at least be contemplated as a possibility of being able to build a fire in a cave, and don an animal skin; and a remarked improvement in the summer, prolly. But see that if you begin by needing evolution to be contradicted, then all you will be able to absorb is concepts that contradict evolution. How do you address our mom sleeping with Neandertals and Denisovans? For instance. Rhetorical, if you like.
That was your mistaken point I already addressed. But the fur of the animal is always needed for survival. If man didn't use clothes then he would not survive. It goes against the supposed progression of evolution.

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bbyrd009

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Stranger said:
To any evolutionists who are here;

If evolution were true, and animals changed and adapted according to survival in the elements, why would they leave their fur and feathers, which provide much better for them then the bare skin of man?

And, where did the shame come from in being naked in front of others? Animals don't have it.

Stranger
Who told you that you were naked?
 

Stranger

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bbyrd009 said:
Who told you that you were naked?
Man;s conscience which was awakened when he sinned against God and ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

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bbyrd009

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So, a bad thing, as far as you are concerned; related as a mis-step, a "sin," something "evil," that maybe God didn't expect, or plan on.
Maybe God was surprised, taken by surprise here, perhaps. So much for "omniscience," i guess.
 

Stranger

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bbyrd009 said:
So, a bad thing, as far as you are concerned; related as a mis-step, a "sin," something "evil," that maybe God didn't expect, or plan on.
Maybe God was surprised, taken by surprise here, perhaps. So much for "omniscience," i guess.
What does this have to do with what we are talking about?

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

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Stranger said:
What does this have to do with what we are talking about?

Stranger
i might ask the same thing; after all, it is you who brought up "sin," Original Sin, wadr. And the fur issue is pretty much settled, right. You want another pitcher? :)