Except a man be born of WATER and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
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You still want to argue about this? What 07-07-07 posted was totally correct and in keeping with Gospel truth.
But you turned around and incorrectly said this:"Jesus was talking about water baptism. Your exegesis of Ephesians 5 isn't correct."
But it turns out that you yourself don't know the significance of water baptism. Jesus was NOT talking about water baptism in John 3:5, since no one is born again simply by being immersed in water. But the Gospel -- the Word of God -- is the METAPHORICAL WATER as noted in Ephesians 5. And Peter calls the Gospel "the incorruptible seed" from which springs the New Birth. So here is the passage (1 Pet 1:23-25) to which you should pay close attention:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the Word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you.
When the Gospel is preached the Holy Spirit uses the power of the Gospel to convict and convince sinners and generate faith in Christ. And it is only those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ who are born again (John 1:12,13). Therefore the Bible says that "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom 10:17). It is obvious from Romans 10, that "the Word of God" is also "the Gospel" as Peter has already revealed.
In view of this, you should now have the grace to admit that you are seriously in error, and that water baptism is NOT what Christ meant in John 3:5.
Getitright
Member
It's not I that is in error. I've already shown that the washing in Ephesians 5 is a bath. It's a bath with water. It's not metaphor. The word in that passage is a spoken word. Again, it's not a metaphor it's a spoken word. However, since we're quoting Peter.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (1 Pet. 3:1 KJV)
If you're going to address baptism, you should post passages that address baptism.
Justin Martyr, Dialog with Trypho, Chapter 86,
David affirms that God comforted him with a rod and staff. Elisha, by casting a stick into the river Jordan, recovered the iron part of the axe with which the sons of the prophets had gone to cut down trees to build the house in which they wished to read and study the law and commandments of God; even as our Christ, by being crucified on the tree, and by purifying [us] with water, has redeemed us, though plunged in the direst offences which we have committed, and has made [us] a house of prayer and adoration. Moreover, it was a rod that pointed out Judah to be the father of Tamar’s sons by a great mystery.”
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
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Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Not sure do we a reference of unbelieving gentiles being told to be water baptized?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
'Water' is about cleansing......getting rid of sin. Yes, any one claiming forgiveness yet nurturing sin is rejecting the Spirits prompting.
The emphasis is put upon the words, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” This seems to say it all for those that believe that water will supplement the deficiency of the work of Christ. They claim that to be saved, we must be regenerated by water baptism in order to receive the baptism of the Spirit. This however misses some important details. First of all, the passage separates the event of being born of water and being born of the Spirit. They are not the same thing, which baptismal regeneration implies. Secondly, baptism is not even mentioned in the context of this passage. The passage is not talking about baptism at all! Lets take a brief look to see what the passage does say.
The question Nicodemus asked was, “How can a man be born again when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? “Jesus answered.” Notice that Jesus is answering the question that Nicodemus asked, which was “how he could return again to his mothers womb.” Jesus does not go off on a tangent by talking about baptism by immersion. In fact, He does not do anything other than answer the direct question of Nicodemus.
Jesus answered his question very directly saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." It is clear from the passage that Nicodemus thought that Jesus was talking about a PHYSICAL rebirth. Jesus responded to his misconception by saying that this is not a physical birth (mother's water) but a SPIRITUAL birth.
If this was talking about water baptism as a requirement for being born-again, you would think that it would be reinforced somewhere in the context of Jesus' speaking. But we find the exact opposite! Jesus says in verse 12 that "if I told you EARTHLY THINGS, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you HEAVENLY THINGS?"
John chapter three is the context in which the interaction of Jesus and Nicodemus takes place. Just before this we read the Gospel is that, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Notice that there is not a singular reference to baptism concerning salvation in this verse, or any baptism/salvation connection in the whole chapter! The Gospel is not found in water, but upon faith! "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
It is a distortion of the Gospel, and the straightforward meaning of the context, to make this passage say that baptism is a requirement for salvation. Just because water is used in the passage, it is no reason to force the concept of baptism upon it!
The question Nicodemus asked was, “How can a man be born again when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? “Jesus answered.” Notice that Jesus is answering the question that Nicodemus asked, which was “how he could return again to his mothers womb.” Jesus does not go off on a tangent by talking about baptism by immersion. In fact, He does not do anything other than answer the direct question of Nicodemus.
Jesus answered his question very directly saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." It is clear from the passage that Nicodemus thought that Jesus was talking about a PHYSICAL rebirth. Jesus responded to his misconception by saying that this is not a physical birth (mother's water) but a SPIRITUAL birth.
If this was talking about water baptism as a requirement for being born-again, you would think that it would be reinforced somewhere in the context of Jesus' speaking. But we find the exact opposite! Jesus says in verse 12 that "if I told you EARTHLY THINGS, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you HEAVENLY THINGS?"
John chapter three is the context in which the interaction of Jesus and Nicodemus takes place. Just before this we read the Gospel is that, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Notice that there is not a singular reference to baptism concerning salvation in this verse, or any baptism/salvation connection in the whole chapter! The Gospel is not found in water, but upon faith! "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
It is a distortion of the Gospel, and the straightforward meaning of the context, to make this passage say that baptism is a requirement for salvation. Just because water is used in the passage, it is no reason to force the concept of baptism upon it!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I think that water baptism follows regeneration, and symbolizes, by ritual, God's verbal acceptance of the saint into His Kingdom through the cleansing of His Holy Spirit. Regeneration begins with faith, which is meeting what God requires in order to give a new nature to a person.
Once a person receives a new spiritual nature from Christ, he is not only able to obey God, which all men can do, but he is also equipped to *be good,* ie to have a *good nature.* This new nature is what saves, and not just intermittent acts of obedience to God's word.
Once we *become good* by virtue of having received Christ's new nature, we can be baptized as a ritual to show the world what has happened to us, and to show the world that we intend to continue living in this new nature. It is a public testimony to fellow Christians, to one's self, and to the unsaved world. This is now who we're going to be.
The water is purely a symbolic element, representing the word of God which can clean an individual by replacing a separated nature with a new nature united with Christ.
This new nature is the result of being saved.
What saves is the appropriation of the blood of Jesus Christ to one's heart and life; and receiving Him into one's heart when He knocks.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
So much is made about rhema from Faith Doctrine and from Kenneth Hagen. The fact is, rhema can represent either the spoken word or a message. For example, the Law was spoken by God but inasmuch as it was recorded it became a message. What is the big difference?
You are expressing information that makes little distinction. How is Salvation "receiving Christ in one's life" and not simultaneously *receiving the new nature?" And yet, you say one precedes the other! That makes no sense. To receive Christ is to receive a new nature from him. That's what saves.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
It is secured by faith (Ephesians 1:13-14, 1 Peter 1:5).
2 Chr. 34:19
Well-Known Member
Interesting :) just thought of the Samaritan woman at the well, when Jesus speaks to her of ‘Living water’
It certainly can't hurt to receive baptism in Jesus' Name.
Peter said, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost even as we?" (Acts of the Apostles 10:47).
Peter said, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost even as we?" (Acts of the Apostles 10:47).
2 Chr. 34:19
Well-Known Member
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Again, you state things without making any distinction. Receiving the new nature as Salvation is, in fact, being saved by our new nature. ;)
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
No, our new nature is salvation.
The concept that we are saved by our new nature implies that we are saved by works. In that we do works because of our new nature and that this is what saves us; because we are saved by our new nature in that our new nature produces salvational works.
But the reality is that our new nature does not save us...our new nature is the salvation that is given to us. So we are not saved by our new nature and what it produces, but we are saved by grace through faith...and that as the result we are given a new nature; and that this is our salvation.
In this, our salvation is a state of being rather than the works that are produced by that state of being.
Again, if we are saved by our new nature, then our salvation is in a sense the works that our new nature produces.
But if we are saved unto the receiving of a new nature, then our salvation is the state of being that is produced by a simple faith in Jesus Christ...regeneration and renewing in the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5).
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marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
You have forgotten one thing. The word baptism means to be fully wet. How does one get fully wet by reading the bible?
Getitright
Member
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:1
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Matt. 3:7-11 KJV)
Here John the Baptist says he baptizes them, the Pharisees and Saducees with water. To be baptized meant to be immersed. John said one comes after him who would immerse them with the Holy Spirit and in fire. I believe John is giving them a choice between life and death. Be baptized with the Holy Spirit or be baptized in fire, the Lake of Fire. Those who refuse Christ will be cast into the Lake of Fire. They will be immersed in fire.
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