Except a man be born of WATER and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[Getitright]

So much is made about rhema from Faith Doctrine and from Kenneth Hagen. The fact is, rhema can represent either the spoken word or a message. For example, the Law was spoken by God but inasmuch as it was recorded it became a message. What is the big difference?


You are expressing information that makes little distinction. How is Salvation "receiving Christ in one's life" and not simultaneously *receiving the new nature?" And yet, you say one precedes the other! That makes no sense. To receive Christ is to receive a new nature from him. That's what saves.

Sure, a spoken word can become a message. What we have to remember though is that when Paul wrote Ephesians they didn't have a New Testament like we do. What they had was oral teachings, thus rhema being a spoken word.

 

[Waiting on him]

What does that mean?

verb
past tense: secured; past participle: secured

1. fix or attach (something) firmly so that it cannot be moved or lost.

 

[Waiting on him]

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:1
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Matt. 3:7-11 KJV)

Here John the Baptist says he baptizes them, the Pharisees and Saducees with water. To be baptized meant to be immersed. John said one comes after him who would immerse them with the Holy Spirit and in fire. I believe John is giving them a choice between life and death. Be baptized with the Holy Spirit or be baptized in fire, the Lake of Fire. Those who refuse Christ will be cast into the Lake of Fire. They will be immersed in fire.

Many have different beliefs, I believe that fire is also an agent for cleansing.

 

[Waiting on him]

Proverbs 25:4 KJV
Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.

 

[Randy Kluth]

verb
past tense: secured; past participle: secured

1. fix or attach (something) firmly so that it cannot be moved or lost.

Why are you going to a dictionary definition when I was asking for the logic in your statement? Are you that dull?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sure, a spoken word can become a message. What we have to remember though is that when Paul wrote Ephesians they didn't have a New Testament like we do. What they had was oral teachings, thus rhema being a spoken word.

It doesn't have to be recorded to become a message.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, our new nature is salvation.

The concept that we are saved by our new nature implies that we are saved by works.

I'm sorry, but that isn't true. You're getting the wrong impression. I agree that our new nature is salvation. It is in receiving the new nature that we are saved. Pretty simple.

In that we do works because of our new nature and that this is what saves us; because we are saved by our new nature in that our new nature produces salvational works.

We can produce good works without salvation. But yes, by our new nature we produce *salvation* works. It is because we're not just doing isolated, intermittent works, but more, because we've chosen the lifestyle of doing good works in Christ. All good works come from Christ. All virtue comes from God. And all men may participate because they've been created in the image of God. But it is in choosing to live in the virtue of Christ that saves us, because that choice endows us with his new nature.

But the reality is that our new nature does not save us...our new nature is the salvation that is given to us. So we are not saved by our new nature and what it produces, but we are saved by grace through faith...and that as the result we are given a new nature; and that this is our salvation.

I don't agree. The new nature saves us not by doing isolated good works but by the choice to live in those good works all the time. That is, in essence, what a "nature" is! We may choose to do good works, or we may choose to live in a new nature. It is the choice to live in a new nature that saves us. It is the choice to accept Christ in our heart, allowing his Spirit to live in us all the time. That saves us.

I think you're worried about Paul's constant reminder that works does not save us. You think that the choice for *works* all the time is "salvation by works." But it isn't. It is the *choice* to live in works all the time that allows Christ's virtue to dwell in us as a new nature, and that choice saves us. It is always his virtue that provides us with *his merit.* Our merit comes from the choice. His merit comes from the virtue.

In this, our salvation is a state of being rather than the works that are produced by that state of being.

We may be saying the same thing, using different words, and you are concerned about "salvation by works." Our salvation, however, is more than a state of being. It is a choice to embrace a new nature that regularly does good works. It is a choice to live in Christ all the time by having him live within us permanently. That is the essence of a "new nature."

Again, if we are saved by our new nature, then our salvation is in a sense the works that our new nature produces.

Yes, our choice to adopt a new nature is, in fact, a choice to adopt good works all the time. But it doesn't mean the virtue comes from us. No virtue comes from man alone, but only when he chooses to incorporate God's virtue into his choices. To opt for good works is *not* "salvation by works." It is a choice to embrace God's good works.

But the issue involves not a choice to do isolated good works, but rather, the choice for a new nature, which opts for good works *by nature.* You don't see that, and that's okay. It's a sticky subject with some. The important thing to me is that we not discount the need for human choice to do both good works and accept a habit of doing so. That comes by embracing Christ in our heart, also known as accepting a new nature.

But if we are saved unto the receiving of a new nature, then our salvation is the state of being that is produced by a simple faith in Jesus Christ...regeneration and renewing in the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5).

 

[Waiting on him]

Why are you going to a dictionary definition when I was asking for the logic in your statement? Are you that dull?

Is this a response generated by your new nature?

 

[07-07-07]

It certainly can't hurt to receive baptism in Jesus' Name.

Peter said, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost even as we?" (Acts of the Apostles 10:47).

Absolutely, we should be baptized in water. Jesus even humbled Himself to be baptized of John to fulfill all righteousness. Too often, however, water is being substituted to wash away sin when if fact only the blood of Jesus can do that. They serve a bloodless gospel that can save no one.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Is this a response generated by your new nature?

Are you trying to judge me?

I asked you a serious question, and you answered me with a dictionary definition, as if I don't know the meaning of "secure." That appears to be a joke?

 

[BreadOfLife]

1] Christian baptism did not exist yet.

2] Eph5 was not written yet.

3] Nicodemus was Jewish

4] He knew two references that were being spoken of;
the water of separation, the water of ezk 36.

Numbers 19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,

2 This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

3 And ye shall give her unto Eleazar the priest, that he may bring her forth without the camp, and one shall slay her before his face:

4 And Eleazar the priest shall take of her blood with his finger, and sprinkle of her blood directly before the tabernacle of the congregation seven times:

5 And one shall burn the heifer in his sight; her skin, and her flesh, and her blood, with her dung, shall he burn:

6 And the priest shall take cedar wood, and hyssop, and scarlet, and cast it into the midst of the burning of the heifer.

7 Then the priest shall wash his clothes, and he shall bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp, and the priest shall be unclean until the even.

8 And he that burneth her shall wash his clothes in water, and bathe his flesh in water, and shall be unclean until the even.

9 And a man that is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and lay them up without the camp in a clean place,
and it shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for a water of separation: it is a purification for sin.

10 And he that gathereth the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: and it shall be unto the children of Israel, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among them, for a statute for ever.

11 He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean seven days.

12 He shall purify himself with it on the third day, and on the seventh day he shall be clean: but if he purify not himself the third day, then the seventh day he shall not be clean.

13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.

14 This is the law, when a man dieth in a tent: all that come into the tent, and all that is in the tent, shall be unclean seven days.

15 And every open vessel, which hath no covering bound upon it, is unclean.

16 And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days.

17 And for an unclean person they shall take of the ashes of the burnt heifer of purification for sin, and running water shall be put thereto in a vessel:

18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:

19 And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even.

20 But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the Lord: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean.

21 And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even.

22 And whatsoever the unclean person toucheth shall be unclean; and the soul that toucheth it shall be unclean until even.

ezk36
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Sorry - but you're wrong.
Jesus was indeed talking about Water Baptism when he told Nicodemus that a man must be fore of water and spirit (John 3:5). It's actually pretty simple, given the context of the first 3 chapters of the Gospel of John.

In the first chapter, we see the Baptism of our Lord. What elements do we see??
1) WATER (John 1:31
2) The HOLY SPIRIT (John 1:32)

In the 2nd Chapter, we see Jesus at the Wedding at Cana transforming WATER into wine.

In the 3rd Chapter, we see the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus:
- Nicodemus said: “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.”
- Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is BORN AGAIN he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
- Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”
- Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be BORN AGAIN.’
- Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?”
- Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?"

Jesus was talking about REBIRTH ("born again"). Nicodemus SHOULD have known what Jesus was talking about.
After all - Ezekiel prophesied about water Baptism:
Ezek. 36:25-27
Then will I sprinkle clean WATER upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

See? There's that "Water and Spirit" again . . .

What did Jesus and the Apostles do AFTER their encounter with Nicodemus??
John 3:22
After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was BAPTIZING.

The First 3 chapters of John's Gospel are literally DRENCHED in the transforming waters of Baptism.

In Acts 2:38-39, Peter tells the crowd that they must be Baptized for the "forgiveness of your sins" and they will "receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

In 1 Pet. 3:21, he compares the waters through with Noah and his family were saved to the waters of BAPTISM. He tells his readers, "BAPTISM now saves you."

ALL of this supports the narrative of John 3:5 being about WATER BAPTISM.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Salvation is to be secured

verb
past tense: secured; past participle: secured
fix or attach (something) firmly so that it cannot be moved or lost.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your SECURE position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

The Word of God assures us that we ARE secure - as long as we cooperate with God's grace (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

 

[justbyfaith]

Water baptism appears to have an affect on the faith of the ones baptized:

Luk 7:29, And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Luk 7:30, But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

 

[justbyfaith]

But yes, by our new nature we produce *salvation* works.

There is no such thing as salvation works, in the sense of works that save a man. There are works that stem out of a salvation already given.

I don't agree. The new nature saves us not by doing isolated good works but by the choice to live in those good works all the time. That is, in essence, what a "nature" is! We may choose to do good works, or we may choose to live in a new nature. It is the choice to live in a new nature that saves us.

It is not a choice to live in a new nature that saves us...it is believing in what Jesus did for us on the Cross that saves us.

Thus a new nature is given to the one who believes; and this new nature is salvation.

Good works will stem out of this salvation as the new nature that is given is inclined towards doing good works. And, if someone is unwilling to do good works at the time of believing, believing will change that, as the new nature is infused into the person.

My point is that salvation is simply by faith in Jesus and the rest follows as the supernatural result of believing in Jesus.

Absolutely, we should be baptized in water. Jesus even humbled Himself to be baptized of John to fulfill all righteousness. Too often, however, water is being substituted to wash away sin when if fact only the blood of Jesus can do that. They serve a bloodless gospel that can save no one.

It has been said that the blood is in the water; and we do find that in Acts of the Apostles 22:16, sins are washed away as the result of water baptism. I know that there are arguments that try to deny the plain meaning of that scripture. But if you take it literally, which 2 Corinthians 3:12 (kjv) tells us we ought to do, then you understand that Paul was told that in being baptized he would wash away his sins.

This is not to say that a man cannot be saved through faith alone. 1) In Colossians 2:12 (kjv) it is shown that a man is saved through the faith of the operation of God. 2) I would contend that while a man can be saved apart from water baptism, that water baptism does indeed have the power to save (1 Peter 3:20-21 (kjv)).

 

[Randy Kluth]

There is no such thing as salvation works, in the sense of works that save a man. There are works that stem out of a salvation already given.

I was responding to what *you said*--"In that we do works because of our new nature and that this is what saves us; because we are saved by our new nature in that our new nature produces salvational works."

So you are in essence saying that you don't believe what *you've said!* I never said that "works save a man." I only said "salvation works" just as you said.

It is not a choice to live in a new nature that saves us...it is believing in what Jesus did for us on the Cross that saves us.
Thus a new nature is given to the one who believes; and this new nature is salvation.

What saves us is our *choice* to be saved, along with the works that Christ did to save us. We accept what he did for us *in our heart.* That means that by receiving a new nature from Christ we choose to be saved. The nature that Christ gives us *save us!*

Good works will stem out of this salvation as the new nature that is given is inclined towards doing good works. And, if someone is unwilling to do good works at the time of believing, believing will change that, as the new nature is infused into the person.

So you think that in choosing to believe in Christ someone can choose against doing good works and later, after believing, want to do good works? You think that people are unable to want to do good works *before* believing in Christ? Or, you think that all those who want to do good works before believing in Christ are artificially wanting to do good works? Or, those who sincerely want to do good works can do good works, but it doesn't matter because Christ will give them, after believing, a different kind of desire to do good works?

My point is that salvation is simply by faith in Jesus and the rest follows as the supernatural result of believing in Jesus.

And my point is that all men were made to want to do good works sincerely, and that something about the sin nature causes men to be repelled by God being the source of their good works such that they reject receiving a new nature from Him. They want to do good on their own. And as sincere as they are, this is not what saves. What saves them is acceptance of a whole new nature--not just the ability to do good works.

It has been said that the blood is in the water; and we do find that in Acts of the Apostles 22:16, sins are washed away as the result of water baptism. I know that there are arguments that try to deny the plain meaning of that scripture. But if you take it literally, which 2 Corinthians 3:12 (kjv) tells us we ought to do, then you understand that Paul was told that in being baptized he would wash away his sins.

That is a metaphorical statement. Water Baptism is a symbolic act representing the fact that God's word is what washes us clean. When we accept the word of Christ to our hearts, we can receive a new nature that gives us salvation. Water Baptism merely represents that symbolically *after the fact.* You can deny that exists in Scriptures if you want, but it is there.

This is not to say that a man cannot be saved through faith alone. 1) In Colossians 2:12 (kjv) it is shown that a man is saved through the faith of the operation of God. 2) I would contend that while a man can be saved apart from water baptism, that water baptism does indeed have the power to save (1 Peter 3:20-21 (kjv)).

You are utterly unable to understand how language works in this case. It is the language of metaphor. "My lucky rabbit foot saved me," meaning, metaphorically, that I "lucked out." The rabbit foot merely symbolizes good fortune.

Water Baptism saves you--not by the element of water itself, but rather by *what it represents,* namely the word of God that washes you clean.

 

[justbyfaith]

I was responding to what *you said*--"In that we do works because of our new nature and that this is what saves us; because we are saved by our new nature in that our new nature produces salvational works."

So you are in essence saying that you don't believe what *you've said!* I never said that "works save a man." I only said "salvation works" just as you said.

Stop putting words in my mouth. In saying what I said, I was pointing out a line of reasoning and that is all. I was not saying those things myself. It seems that you like to dodge the question, friend; and that you are very good at doing so.

What saves us is our *choice* to be saved,

It is not of him who wills nor of him who runs but of God who sheweth mercy (Romans 9:16).

You think that people are unable to want to do good works *before* believing in Christ?

Yes.

And my point is that all men were made to want to do good works sincerely,

No, the heart of man before regeneration is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9).

They want to do good on their own. And as sincere as they are, this is not what saves. What saves them is acceptance of a whole new nature--not just the ability to do good works.

How do we receive a new nature except by believing in Jesus and what He did for us? We do not receive this nature by turning over a new leaf...by committing to begin doing good works. The new nature only comes in when a man appropriates the blood of Jesus to his heart and life.

Water Baptism merely represents that symbolically *after the fact.* You can deny that exists in Scriptures if you want, but it is there.

Consider me as being from Missouri...show me the scriptures that tell you this.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Stop putting words in my mouth. In saying what I said, I was pointing out a line of reasoning and that is all. I was not saying those things myself. It seems that you like to dodge the question, friend; and that you are very good at doing so.

I'm not dodging anything, nor am I playing games. That's exactly what you said and meant! Anybody can read your words above!

It is not of him who wills nor of him who runs but of God who sheweth mercy (Romans 9:16).
Yes.
No, the heart of man before regeneration is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9).

Yes, you think and admit you believe that people are unable to want to do good works *before* believing in Christ? And yet this is what the Bible said about all the OT saints, that they were "saints," not yet believing in Christ because Christ had not yet even been born! And here is what is said about Naaman and Cornelius, two figures in the Scriptures who were from pagan cultures and yet were viewed as good people.

2 Kings 5.1 Now Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the Lord had given victory to Aram.

Acts 10.1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

You say men before Christian regeneration are so bound by an evil heart that they cannot do good? On the contrary....

Deut 30.11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

How do we receive a new nature except by believing in Jesus and what He did for us? We do not receive this nature by turning over a new leaf...by committing to begin doing good works. The new nature only comes in when a man appropriates the blood of Jesus to his heart and life.

As I just showed you, men were created to do good, and to want to be good. They were created in God's image, and they did not suddenly stop being created that way!

The hearts of men were indeed poisoned by rebellion against God's word, and so can be led either by their conscience to obey God's word or by their wicked heart, to want to rebel against God's word.

Men, therefore, can still respond to God's word, despite their corrupted hearts. They can do good, but this does not thereby save them. What saves them is the choice to receive a new nature by Christ. In that way, they have brought Christ's salvation into their heart so that they can do good in Christ, and do it all the time, by virtue of having received a new nature. That is, in fact, salvation!

You keep wanting to turn this around to say I'm pursuing salvation by good works. But a choice for a new nature in Christ is not an effort at salvation by good works. Rather, it is choosing for salvation that encompasses a new nature that does good works all the time.

You apparently choose to be critical and try to turn my words around to say something I never said. You should apologize. I never once suggested that men can be saved by choosing to do good works alone. The choice for good works must include the new nature in Christ. That's what I've always said.

Consider me as being from Missouri...show me the scriptures that tell you this.

I already have. You're hard-hearted. People in Acts got water baptized *after* they received Christ. You've been shown this already.

Acts 10.44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

The reason the Scriptures speak of water baptism as being part of Salvation is because commonly the choice to receive Christ was immediately followed by an act of commitment--water baptism. It was the *confession* that saved, as Paul argued in Romans 10. Water Baptism was merely the vehicle, or ritual, providing for the public confession.

 

[justbyfaith]

And yet this is what the Bible said about all the OT saints, that they were "saints," not yet believing in Christ because Christ had not yet even been born!

People in the OT looked forward to the coming of the Messiah; and even had the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them according to 1 Peter 1:11. And the scripture declares that we receive the Spirit of Christ when we believe in Christ (Galatians 3:14).

Men, therefore, can still respond to God's word, despite their corrupted hearts.

Their righteousness, however, is as filthy rags, Isaiah 64:6.

What saves them is the choice to receive a new nature by Christ.

It is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God that sheweth mercy (Romans 9:16).

You keep wanting to turn this around to say I'm pursuing salvation by good works. But a choice for a new nature in Christ is not an effort at salvation by good works. Rather, it is choosing for salvation that encompasses a new nature that does good works all the time.

To make a decision to do good works, and then to think that that is going to save you, is in effect trusting in your works to save you.

You apparently choose to be critical and try to turn my words around to say something I never said.

That is what you have done with me.

You should apologize. I never once suggested that men can be saved by choosing to do good works alone.

Neither have I. But you took my words out of the context in which they were written to try and make me say that. So you should apologize. And I would encourage the reader to notice what I have emboldened in your statement. You are mixing works into your salvation equation; implying that good works will save you if they are accompanied by faith.

You're hard-hearted.

You have three fingers pointing back at you (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42, Luke 6:37).

People in Acts got water baptized *after* they received Christ. You've been shown this already.

No, you haven't shown me this.

Acts 10.44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Again, Cornelius and friends were a unique bunch. They were converted at a time of transition in church history. The circumcision group was opposed to the idea that Gentiles could be saved; and therefore God did a special work with Cornelius and friends by giving them the Holy Ghost before they were baptized; understanding that Peter knew what Jesus had taught him and would require them to be baptized after it became evident that they were Christians. God gave them the Holy Ghost in order to prove to the circumcision group that Gentiles could be saved so that they would be allowed to be baptized.

The fact that you oppose the doctrine of baptism in Jesus' Name indicates to me that you have not personally received this baptism. This is why you don't have the Holy Ghost. If you had received baptism in Jesus' Name, you would have the Holy Ghost and your doctrine would be sound.

 

[justbyfaith]

Here is the context of my words.

The concept that we are saved by our new nature implies that we are saved by works. In that we do works because of our new nature and that this is what saves us; because we are saved by our new nature in that our new nature produces salvational works.

It was you who had said that we are saved by our new nature; and I was responding to this.

You took advantage of the fact that it was not absolutely clear what I was saying and tried to turn it around on me.

Again, here is the context of my words:

No, our new nature is salvation.

The concept that we are saved by our new nature implies that we are saved by works. In that we do works because of our new nature and that this is what saves us; because we are saved by our new nature in that our new nature produces salvational works.

But the reality is that our new nature does not save us...our new nature is the salvation that is given to us. So we are not saved by our new nature and what it produces, but we are saved by grace through faith...and that as the result we are given a new nature; and that this is our salvation.

 

[Getitright]

Many have different beliefs, I believe that fire is also an agent for cleansing.

It is seen as a cleansing agent. It's also seen as a means of destruction in the Scriptures.