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Featured Explain & Apply John 16:13

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Enow, Feb 6, 2020.

  1. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    Please read the portion italicized and underlined in each version of John 16:13 below and explain what all those versions are saying about how the Holy Spirit will speak and not speak.

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV

    John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. NIV

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. ASV

    John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. ESV

    John 16:13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. NASB

    How can this "not" be applied to how the Holy Spirit cannot use God's gift of tongues for uttering His own intercessions?

    Other than the KJV, John 16:13 in most Bible version opposes how modern versions has Romans 8:26-27 implying that sounds are being uttered for when the Holy Spirit makes intercessions whereas the KJV has it that even His groanings can not be uttered. The Holy Spirit cannot speak nor utter groanings even for Himself as John 16:13 in all Bibles says.

    Did Jesus really say that? Did Jesus really meant that? Did Jesus say the Holy Spirit cannot speak nor utter anything at all for Himself, but can only speak what He hears? I'd say yes.

    So how do you explain and apply John 16:13 from what all those Bible versions are saying?
     
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  2. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    The versions all say that the Spirit will tell you the listener what God wants you to hear.
     
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  3. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Contextually the words of John 16:13 are being spoken to the Apostles only so they have no bearing on anyone today. The Apostles were promised the Holy Spirit (the Comforter) and this Divine inspiration would guide the Apostles to "all truth". The Holy Spirit would bring to the Apostles remembrance all things Christ said (John 14:26). The Holy Spirit would not speak from Himself meaning the Holy Spirit would not add anything new, not give any different teachings to the Apostles apart from the "all truth" Christ had already spoken:

    "He (Holy Spirit) does not speak from himself, that is, independently of the Father and the Son ... Furthermore, he will show things to come. This was fulfilled in the inspired witness of the apostles ... Let no one therefore think that the Holy Spirit continues now to give prophecies through individuals. He has shown the things to come in the completed word of God, and we must turn there to know these future events."
    Arno C. Gaebelein "The gospel of John" p 305.

    "A little reflection will show that the Holy Spirit could never be the independent kind of "wind in the mulberry bush" guide of human conduct that some seem to believe. If any spirit, even the Holy Spirit, could have so dominated man's mind as to have guided him into all truth, apart from the objective demonstration of truth in the life and person of Jesus Christ, it would not have been necessary for the Lord to come in the flesh. The subjective "feelings" of spirituals in all ages have been erroneously received as gospel truth, and the ravages of this error have been phenomenal.
    Gibbon recorded a remarkable incident from one of the crusades in which:


    "Two hundred thousand people (had as their) genuine leaders a goose and a goat, carried at the front, and to whom these worthy Christians ascribed an infusion of the divine spirit."


    Pitiful? Certainly, but not any more pitiful than millions today who are following some goose who is allegedly endowed with the Holy Spirit."
    Coffman Commentary (my emp)
    Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (Philadelphia: Henry T. Coates and Company, 1845), Vol. 5, p. 27.

    Again, no one today has this Divine inspiration. The Holy Spirit therefore speaks to people today through His written word, the Bible.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  4. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for sharing.

    It is more than just that.

    How does John 16:13 testify about how the Holy Spirit will speak and how the Holy Spirit will not speak?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  5. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for sharing.

    If Jesus was "just" talking to His disciples of what the Holy Spirit will do, then that applies to all who receive the Comforter at their salvation too. One can read His words in the scripture and the Holy Spirit will bring into remembrance of His words to us at the appropriate time, God be willing.

    If we read 1 John 2nd chapter, we see that promise in other believers as testified by the apostle John so take note on verse 20-21 & 27.

    1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth..... 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    So John 16:13 is not just for the apostles but regarding a promise for all believers to receive after His ascension on how the Holy Spirit will speak and not speak unto the people. It can serve as a line of discernment regarding believers assuming that the supernatural tongue that they have is for private use as one of those uses is the Holy Spirit praying by that tongue which John 16:13 reproves such notions. That way, believers can not only test the spirits to see whether they be of God or not, but test the tongues as well because it is not for private use; 1 Corinthians 12:7-11
     
  6. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    In the context of the book of John only the Apostles were promised the Comforter, no one else. NO one today has inspiration as the inspired writers of the Bible, no one today has all things brought to their remembrance as the Apostles. Many make this claim but no proof.

    1 John 2:
    24 "As for you, let that abide in you which ye heard from the beginning. If that which ye heard from the beginning abide in you, ye also shall abide in the Son, and in the Father." THis is speaking of the gospel word abiding in Christians, not miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    27 "And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him."
    This verse is speaking about the Holy Spirit but it speaks to that what was "taught you" which is the written word of the Holy Spirit. These Christians John was addressing has already been taught and knew the gospel, hence "ye need not that any one should teach you". The gospel word provided them all they needed (2 Timothy 3:16-17)....the gospel word is "true", the gospel word "is no lie", the gospel word was "taught you" and since you have been taught the gospel word is why "ye abide in Him".
    "It is obvious that John does not mean that each individual has his own channel of communications by means of the Holy Spirit."[*] Furthermore, John did not teach that Christians had no need of further study. The whole passage must be understood as a plea for the all-sufficiency of the gospel as the complete and effective refutation of heresies." * J. W. Roberts, The Letters of John (Austin, Texas: R. B. Sweet Company, 1968), p. 72.

    It is all done by the written word the gospel therefore no need for the Holy Spirit to miraculously abide in the Christian to 'tell' the Christian what to do.
     
  7. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for sharing again.

    1 John 2:27 does reprove your notion that the Comforter was only for the apostles. Read it again.

    27 "And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him."

    Yes, He teaches us in according to the written scripture but He also brings them into remembrance. He teaches us what His words mean and how to apply His words to know the truth from falsehood.

    So anyway, John 16:13 testifies to how the Holy Spirit will speak and not speak. It is to be noted that the Holy Spirit does not always need to speak when teaching anyone by the scripture, let alone when reminding them of the scripture, but in ministry outreach, He will lead us to speak.
     
  8. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    A fine example of the Holy Spirit speaking is at Antioch when the Spirit said...."separate for Me (God) Paul and Barnabas for the work I am sending them to."
     
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  9. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your input. As iron sharpens iron, we leave it to God to cause the increase.

    Discernment is needed here to apply His words correctly since scripture cannot go against scripture.

    Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

    So does that mean we are not really speaking? No, because the Holy Spirit speaks thru us. So then is it really the Holy Spirit speaking? Again, no, for the Father was speaking thru the Spirit at the time Jesus was on the earth.

    So how do we apply Acts 13:2 of your reference? With the understanding that the Holy Spirit at that time as He is now, speaking for Christ Jesus.

    Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    So if you consider who the Holy Spirit was speaking thru, and yet is not mentioned, then we apply John 16:13-15 for how the Holy Spirit was speaking and that is from Christ as the words of the Father & everything was now the Son's to do with as the Father's will.

    I understand why you chose that, but then there is this verse also.

    1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    So I know how the Holy Spirit spoke while Jesus was on earth as speaking from the Father from what He hears the Father says, and now that all power has been given unto the Son, the Spirit of Christ represents Christ when He speaks.

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    Only Jesus answers prayers at the Father's permission for why the Father shall be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers.

    John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    That is why all credit of what the Holy Spirit does in ministry is given to the Son to glorify the Son and by Him, God the Father.

    So the Holy Spirit is not Another Head of the Church because there is only One Head and that is Christ Jesus, the Lord. So the Holy Spirit cannot speak for Himself as if He is running the show when He s speaking what He hears thus Christ is the One choosing Paul and Barnabas for the ministry.
     
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  10. Getitright

    Getitright Active Member

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    He said that to His disciples.
     
  11. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    The spirit is speaking on behalf of God so is not speaking on his own authority.
     
  12. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for sharing, but the topic is about what the Holy Spirit will do as in this topic in how He will speak and how He will not speak, regardless of Him saying that to His disciples. Jesus said a lot of things to His disciples and to the multitude. Are we to infer that all Jesus said was just for the Jews and that the gospel was never meant for the Gentiles? No. And yet the apostle John shared this in writing because what Jesus said about how the Holy Spirit will speak and not speak applies to how the Holy Spirit will speak all the time so that His disciples will know.

    Indeed, anyone can become His disciple, Here is how.

    John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    So His words apply to all believers that continue in His words.
     
  13. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. Does that not apply towards how the Holy Spirit cannot use tongues for His own use, like uttering His own intercessions or not?
     
  14. Cooper

    Cooper Well-Known Member

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    You remember how Jesus spoke, not of himself, but as the Father gave him, so it is with the Holy Spirit who speaks not of himself, but as the Father and the Son give Him. For this to happen, we need either an infilling of the Holy Spirit or to attend a spirit filled church.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  15. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    These two verses below reproves why there can be no more filling of the Spirit after salvation.

    John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
     
  16. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Tongues is just a sign.

    Tongues is not even tongues to those who believe or also have the Holy Spirit, for the words come in their own tongue.

    Thus, tongues is not the Holy Spirit uttering his own words or authority...He is simply speaking to the spirit of those who believe, that which He was given to speak. Therefore, if you say that "I heard someone speak in tongues", it was either gibberish, or a confession that you do not have the Spirit in you to interpret. Nonetheless, those who have the Holy Spirit, have no doubt.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  17. Invisibilis

    Invisibilis Well-Known Member

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    Please do not limit the Father and Son's grace (truth, love and faith) upon anyone.
     
  18. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, there is a supernatural tongue that existed in the world before Pentecost that was and still is just gibberish nonsense and not a foreign language at all. Those who claims tongues can also be for private use because it comes with no interpretation, but they cannot prove that tongue is not the tongue as found in the world. Since God's gift of tongues is a foreign language to speak unto the people, and when used in the assembly, it will come with interpretation, then the Holy Spirit cannot switch the mode for what God's gift of tongues are for to use it for His own purpose in uttering His intercessions out loud , because John 16:13 says He cannot speak like that on His own accord, but speak only what He hears.

    Believers are warned not to believe every spirit but test them and so if that tongue that speaks as the world speaks in a supernatural tongue, then that tongue is not of God after all. 1 John 4:5-6

    1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
     
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  19. Enow

    Enow Well-Known Member

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    Since you quoted Ernest T. Bass and myself, you need to explain how I am limiting the Father & the Son's grace upon anyone when I am applying His words for what He is meaning about how the Holy Spirit will speak and not speak that applies to all believers that have the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    As for Ernest T. Bass, I do not agree with him obviously for limiting the words of Jesus about the Holy Spirit as just towards His disciples, especially when Judas Iscariot was among them who did not believe in Jesus and was going to betray Him later on. This is why Jesus was testifying to the promise of the Holy Spirit Whom believers shall receive at their salvation after He was no longer present but had ascended to God the Father.

    The only time the Holy Spirit will be received is at the calling of the gospel when sinners believe in Him to be saved; thus born again of the Spirit.
     
  20. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That is a rather superficial explanation. We need to read that verse more carefully. And it is incorrect to say that it was only applicable to the apostles.

    CRITICAL TEXT (only difference is word order as bolded)
    ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ Πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς εἰς τὴν ἀλήθειαν πᾶσαν· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφ’ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλ’ ὅσα ἀκούει λαλήσει, καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν.

    RECEIVED TEXT
    ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς εἰς πάσαν τὴν ἀληθείαν· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφ' ἑαυτοῦ ἀλλ' ὅσα ἂν ἀκούσῃ λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν

    Literal rendering: When however shall come He the Spirit of Truth, He will guide you into all the truth. Not for He will speak from Himself, but whatever He may hear, He will speak; and the things coming He will declare to you.

    King James Bible
    Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.

    The modern versions generally say "He will not speak ON HIS OWN" which is not a true translation but an interpretation. The KJV is more of a tranlation, but should have said "from Himself" instead of "of Himself" ( which is idiomatic), but both translations are acceptable according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon.

    Thayer's Greek Lexicon
    STRONGS NT 575: ἀπό (apo)
    ἀπό (from Homer down), preposition with the genitive (Latina,ab,abs, German von,ab,weg (cf. English of, off)), from,signifying now separation, now origin. On its use in the N. T., in which the influence of the Hebrew מִן is traceable, cf. Winers Grammar, 864f (342), 369ff (346ff); Buttmann, 321ff (276ff). (On the neglect of elision before words beginning with a vowel see Tdf. Proleg., p. 94; cf. Winers Grammar, § 5, 1 a.; Buttmann, p. 10f; WH's Appendix, p. 146.) In order to avoid repetition we forbear to cite all the examples, but refer the reader to the several verbs followed by this preposition. ἀπό, then, is used:


    So what this verse is saying is:
    (a) the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Truth) has yet to come (since this was before Pentecost);
    (b) He will guide the believer (not just the apostles) into all truth;
    (c) He will not speak from Himself, meaning that He will speak on behalf of the Father and the Son (even though He is God);
    (d) Whatever He hears from the Father and the Son, that is what He will speak;
    (e) He will also reveal things to come (future events).

    At the same time, since (1) the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are always in perfect harmony and (2) the Bible says that it is the Holy Spirit who divinely inspired the prophets and apostles, in effect the words of the Spirit are the words of the Father and the Son.
     
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