Explain & Apply John 16:13

[101G]

I do have other threads to reply to, brother, but I gave you your reply just a bit ago.

nope, it was in ERROR.

but thanks for the reply.

PICJAG.

 

[Mike Waters]

Exactly what is the purpose of this thread in resurrecting the great controversy of the early middle ages? Is to strengthen the Christian faith, or is it to undermine it?

"Christians have divided as a result of the breakdown of the apparent consensus. This happened between the Byzantine East and the Roman West in the early Middle Ages. While linguistic, political, and cultural factors certainly played a part, irreducibly doctrinal matters were also involved. The West was uneasy with the Eastern understanding of the decisions of Chalcedon concerning the natures of Christ. The Carolingian Council of Frankfurt (794) feared that the “Eastern” Council of Nicaea II had sanctioned the veneration of images beyond due limits. The gravest matter, however, concerned the insertion of the word Filioque into the Nicene-Constantinoplitan creed, whereby the Western churches had come to confess that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father “and from the Son.” The word was introduced—probably as an anti-Arian move—by the regional Council of Toledo in 589 and later spread throughout the Frankish empire; Rome adopted it only in 1014. The Orthodox East objected formally to the unilateral alteration of the creed and materially to a teaching that seemed to them to fuse the Father and the Son into a single principle. In 1054 the bishops of Rome and Constantinople engaged in a mutual excommunication because of theological differences and the refusal of Constantinople to accept Roman claims of primacy. The excommunications, which effectively divided the East and the West, were “erased from memory and the midst of the Church” by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras I of Constantinople in 1965, but their two churches are not yet in ecclesiastical communion."

 

[Enoch111]

well if I'm clueless then tell us, is the Person in John 1:3 who made all things is he the same Person in Isaiah 44:24? yes or No.

ABSOLUTELY YES. YHWH (translated as Jehovah) applies to both the Father and the Son. But the Son is the Redeemer. He is also the Word, the Creator. So He is both the Creator and the Redeemer. (And "who is with me" is not in the text.)

Thus saith the LORD [YHWH], thy Redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD [YHWH] that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself.

Given the context of false gods in this chapter, the last clause is excluding all false gods. But it is not excluding the Father and the Holy Spirit, since Genesis 1:1,2 include both.

In the beginning God [ELOHIM = THE TRIUNE GODHEAD] created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Now when we turn to John 1:1-3: We find that the Godhead has assigned creation to the eternal Word as the Creator (hence"by myself"):

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [THEOS = THE FATHER], and the Word was God [THEOS = THE SON]. The same was in the beginning with God [THEOS = THE FATHER]. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Enow]

I see a problem. if both came why send? see your problem. but if the Holy Spirit came also, and the Father and the son came well as said who sent everyone else. that "CONFUSION". listen, Jesus is the Father and the Son, "diversified" of himself. he came, listen, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you".

he clearly tells you that he is coming. and he did on PENTECOST, in the spiritual gifts. How? by "MANIFESTING" himself. John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
as said he MANIFESTED on PENTECOST, in the gifts.

see, one can tell when explanation run out, John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

it whould have been easy for the Lord Jesus just to say we will send the comforter. no he siad I will send him. well didn't Jesus knew that the father was going to send the Holy Spirit?... YES, John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you". see how easy it is when one know the truth. the Father is Jesus, as well as the Son. no, both didn't sent the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the Father and the Son, the same person "Diversified".

PICJAG.

Think of that as the born again of the Spirit of the Triune God. Nothing Jesus said negates the other. All is true.

If you have the KJV, you can read 1 John 5:7 as that is scripture about the Three Witnesses in Heaven.

At this site, to a particular book written and shared by David W. Daniels at this web page, proves from extra biblical sources that 1 John 5:7 was originally in scripture as referenced.

https://www.chick.com/information/article?id=is-i-john-5:7-missing-from-older-manuscripts

" 250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin) "

I do not believe what Jack Chick says about Catholics going to hell when they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead, but they are at risk of being left behind because of the dead works of Catholicism that denies Him as their Savior when they are indeed saved since they had first come to & believed in Jesus Christ at the calling of the gospel.

Anyway, pray about this. Scripture supports the existence of the Triune God, but scripture dictates the will of the Father to come to Him by the only way of the Son in honoring Him in worship and by no other way; not by the Person of the Holy Spirit Whom is God, not by the name of the "Trinity" as if Trinity is the name of God; but by the name of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, is how we come to God the Father by in worship by honoring the Son. Why? Because the father is calling sinners in the world that worship spirits and commune with spirits to come to Him by the only way of the Son so that they will know they are departing from those spirits and the church will know they have departed from their spirits & practices too..

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

 

[Enow]

nope, it was in ERROR.

but thanks for the reply.

PICJAG.

You are found wanting since you did not show how it was an error, brother.

 

[101G]

ABSOLUTELY YES. YHWH (translated as Jehovah) applies to both the Father and the Son. But the Son is the Redeemer. He is also the Word, the Creator. So He is both the Creator and the Redeemer. (And "who is with me" is not in the text.)

first thanks for the reply, second you have ABSOLUTELY destroyed your own doctrine. for if they are separate and distinct as your doctrine states, then if Jehovaj applies to Father and son, then there is no "DISTINCTION", and your doctrine is exposed as false. you jusr destroyed your own doctrine, out of your own mouth.

as just what you said, "the Son is the redeemer". Isaiah 43:14 "Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships". here the "LORD" is the redeemer, and if you say the titles are interchangeable, then the seperate and distict persons goses out the window, and again your doctrine falls flat on it's face. ...

Thus saith the LORD [YHWH], thy Redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD [YHWH] that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself.

Given the context of false gods in this chapter, the last clause is excluding all false gods. But it is not excluding the Father and the Holy Spirit, since Genesis 1:1,2 include both.

another ERROR on your Part, Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD". so again your doctrine is false.

Now when we turn to John 1:1-3: We find that the Godhead has assigned creation to the eternal Word as the Creator (hence"by myself"):

LOL, LOL, LOL, I almost laugh out of my chair when I read that. the Godhead has assigned? "creation to the eternal Word as the Creator?" are you kidding yourself? definitely not us. now look down... now look up...... yes, that's just what you did, ..... NOTHING. if he was alone and by himself then there is no second, or third person in any Godhead... man oh man. ever learning but never able to come to the truth, oh well.

now you have change your doctrine from 3 separate God to interchangeable Gods, and titles, and now to assigment in the God head, DON'T YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING? PROMOTING "MODALISM" IN REVERSE... it's ashame to turn a doctrine into so many explinations. what's next?

Enoch, Enoch, don't you know when changing your doctrine all the time, it FALSE. the trinty is nothing but modalism in reverse. what a con job, well to each their own.

then you said this...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [THEOS = THE FATHER], and the Word was God [THEOS = THE SON]. The same was in the beginning with God [THEOS = THE FATHER]. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

the WORD was "WITH?", lets see if this is true in your thinking. listen up, watch the "with", ok.

Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he". did you see the "with" there? just like in John 1:1b. I the Lord, the "First" and "WITH" the Last. is that two separate and distinct person? NO, he said I AM HE. but since you're blind, now this,
Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last". did you see that Enoch111? he was "WITH" but he's "ALSO". see your ERROR now?. the first and Last never changed, nor was the First and Last separate and distinct..... it's the same person, read those scriptures again.... My, my,my. see that shows how must you ABSOLUTELY know about the Godhead... ZERO, nothing. you need to go back and re-examine your beliefs, ok.

so before you call someone clueless, get the clues first. Proverbs 18:13 "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him".

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

You are found wanting since you did not show how it was an error, brother.

so we can take this as you cannot comprehend clearly as to who sent the Holy Spirit?. nor understand that the Lord Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit "Diversified" in Spirit as the "offspring?"....

but thanks for the reply.

PICJAG.

 

[Enow]

so we can take this as you cannot comprehend clearly as to who sent the Holy Spirit?. nor understand that the Lord Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit "Diversified" in Spirit as the "offspring?"....

but thanks for the reply.

PICJAG.

Listen.

Where is the risen Jesus Christ now? In Heaven.

Where is the celestial body of the Father at now? In Heaven.

So "They" sent the Holy Spirit as "They" made "Their abode" in us at our salvation.

The Holy Spirit sent as He is also the Spirit of the Father & the Spirit of the Son as a separate Witness of each and since the Three Witnesses are of the One God for how God is with us, is how the Three abides in us.

The Holy Spirit being sent from the Father & the Son in Heaven does not negate the plurality of the indwelling God testifying that we are saved.

 

[101G]

Listen.

Where is the risen Jesus Christ now? In Heaven.

Where is the celestial body of the Father at now? In Heaven.

So "They" sent the Holy Spirit as "They" made "Their abode" in us at our salvation.

The Holy Spirit sent as He is also the Spirit of the Father & the Spirit of the Son as a separate Witness of each and since the Three Witnesses are of the One God for how God is with us, is how the Three abides in us.

The Holy Spirit being sent from the Father & the Son in Heaven does not negate the plurality of the indwelling God testifying that we are saved.

first thanks for the reply. Second, ERROR. if "THEY" meaning the (Father and Son), sent the Holy Spirit, and "THEY" made their abode in us then "THEY" is an ERROR, because if "THEY" are in us meaning (Father and Son), and the Holy Spirit is in us then there is "NO THEY" in heaven because all of "THEY" is here on earth in us according to you.

you want to try that again.


PICJAG.

 

[Enow]

first thanks for the reply. Second, ERROR. if "THEY" meaning the (Father and Son), sent the Holy Spirit, and "THEY" made their abode in us then "THEY" is an ERROR, because if "THEY" are in us meaning (Father and Son), and the Holy Spirit is in us then there is "NO THEY" in heaven because all of "THEY" is here on earth in us according to you.

you want to try that again.


PICJAG.

Are you assuming that the omnipresence of God the Father & God the Son are dependent on God the Holy Spirit?

I cannot see how you can limit the omnipresence of the Three Persons in the One God. They can send the Holy Spirit to indwell in us forever and yet They too can still abide in us.

 

[Mike Waters]

The thread started well but quickly turned into dogmatic bigotry.

 

[101G]

Are you assuming that the omnipresence of God the Father & God the Son are dependent on God the Holy Spirit?

I cannot see how you can limit the omnipresence of the Three Persons in the One God. They can send the Holy Spirit to indwell in us forever and yet They too can still abide in us.

ok, lets see if what you said is true then. Isaiah 48:16 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me".
ok Enow who was sent, study the scripture well, will be looking for your answer.

thanks in advance.

PICJAG.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Thank you for sharing again.

1 John 2:27 does reprove your notion that the Comforter was only for the apostles. Read it again.

27 "And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him."

Yes, He teaches us in according to the written scripture but He also brings them into remembrance. He teaches us what His words mean and how to apply His words to know the truth from falsehood.

So anyway, John 16:13 testifies to how the Holy Spirit will speak and not speak. It is to be noted that the Holy Spirit does not always need to speak when teaching anyone by the scripture, let alone when reminding them of the scripture, but in ministry outreach, He will lead us to speak.

The Holy Spirit speaks and teaches men through His written word therefore says the same thing to all men. In the book of Acts when the gospel dispensation began people were taught the word, Peter preached the first gospel sermon, lost men heard, understood and obeyed. No miraculous intervention by the Holy Spirit occurred. The Spirit sent for Phillip to teach the eunuch, the Spirit did not miraculous 'illuminate' the understanding of the eunuch apart from the word. Ephesians 3:4. Acts 17:11 no need to read study to understand the Bible if the Holy Spirit just miraculous illuminates one's understanding apart from the written word. John 14:26 the Holy Spirit would bring ALL things to the Apostle's remembrance. No one today has all things remembered, Can you quote the Bible from cover to cover from memory? I have seen those who claim they are taught miraculously by the Holy Spirit contradict each other, even contradict the Bible. Something the Holy Spirit would never do.

The Holy Spirit "Illumination" Theory: A Critical Review

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

As for Ernest T. Bass, I do not agree with him obviously for limiting the words of Jesus about the Holy Spirit as just towards His disciples, especially when Judas Iscariot was among them who did not believe in Jesus and was going to betray Him later on. This is why Jesus was testifying to the promise of the Holy Spirit Whom believers shall receive at their salvation after He was no longer present but had ascended to God the Father.

No verse says Judas never believed in Jesus Christ. Matthew 10 is limited commission Jesus gave to His Apostles only including Judas. All Apostles had been given the Holy Spirit therefore were inspired Matthew 10:19-20. No one today has been given this miraculous inspiration ability only the Apostles here in Matt 10.

 

[Enow]

The thread started well but quickly turned into dogmatic bigotry.

Might be good to reprove by the scripture, brother. Only way we can learn is by pointing out the error by quoting the poster and reproving it by the scripture in Christ's love.

 

[Enow]

ok, lets see if what you said is true then. Isaiah 48:16 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me".
ok Enow who was sent, study the scripture well, will be looking for your answer.

thanks in advance.

PICJAG.

Thank you for sharing. That is a good reference that testifies to the Three Witnesses within the One God.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Who is speaking here in verses 16 & 17? The Lord our God, Our Redeemer.

And yet the Lord God ( the Father ) and His Spirit sent Him?

This prophesy came true at Jesus's water baptism when God the Father spoke from Heaven in bearing witness of His Son as God and the Holy Spirit joined in that testimony by alighting on the Son to make the Father's testimony true from Heaven. Note Jesus words in verse 13 to fulfill all righteousness because the prophesy in Isaiah 48:16 was about to come true that the Lord God & His Spirit sent Him, God Our Redeemer.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

 

[101G]

First thanks for your reply, second to answer your first reply.

I cannot see how you can limit the omnipresence of the Three Persons in the One God.

no one is limiting the omnipresence of God, but he do "APPEAR", "MANIFEST" himself at a particular time in a place and spatial. Hosea 12:10 "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets". so god can manifest himself any where and at any place, at any time.

so the question still stands "who" was sent or may we say "Appeared", or "manifested" himself in our presences.

NOW, you said,

And yet the Lord God ( the Father ) and His Spirit sent Him?

ok, lets see if this is true.
A. the Lord God here as you claim is the Father.
B. his spirit, the Holy Spirit

this is according to you. ok, fine. but you have a big problem, and here it is.

the one whom you calls the Lord God is JESUS, and not the Father. lets prove it out by the scriptures.

follow me, Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John"

here someone sent "his" angel to John right. a Many of scholars have said that it was the Father who sent his angel to John. ok, lets see. for the angel tells us who sent him.... listen, Revelation 22:6 "And he said unto me, (this is the angel speaking to John), These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done".

the Lord God of the holy prophets, (the same Lord God of Isaiah 48:16 ). well now it seems that you and the scholars appears to be correct in that the Lord God is the Father, well hush my mouth, and I agree that it is the Father. but, but, and that's with one t... but you and the scholars have one problem, the Lord God who sent his angel to John is the Lord Jesus. how do we know this? well while you're in Chapter 22 and at verse 6 of Revelation, just come down a few verse and read Revelation 22:16 and there one will have their answer as to who, #1. the Lord God is, (the Son) and #2. one will know who the Lord God is by NAME. so please read Revelation 22:16 and see who the Lord God is, THAT "SENT" HIS ANGEL to John.

I'll be waiting for your answer.

PICJAG.

 

[Enow]

The Holy Spirit speaks and teaches men through His written word therefore says the same thing to all men. In the book of Acts when the gospel dispensation began people were taught the word, Peter preached the first gospel sermon, lost men heard, understood and obeyed. No miraculous intervention by the Holy Spirit occurred. The Spirit sent for Phillip to teach the eunuch, the Spirit did not miraculous 'illuminate' the understanding of the eunuch apart from the word. Ephesians 3:4. Acts 17:11 no need to read study to understand the Bible if the Holy Spirit just miraculous illuminates one's understanding apart from the written word. John 14:26 the Holy Spirit would bring ALL things to the Apostle's remembrance. No one today has all things remembered, Can you quote the Bible from cover to cover from memory? I have seen those who claim they are taught miraculously by the Holy Spirit contradict each other, even contradict the Bible. Something the Holy Spirit would never do.

The Holy Spirit "Illumination" Theory: A Critical Review

Has the Holy Spirit ever brought into remembrance at a certain time you needed to be reminded?

Not sure why you seem to think not being able to recollect every scripture is proof that it was only for the disciples. What about Paul?

Did not the apostle John taught this promise to all believers below?

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.... 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Enow]

No verse says Judas never believed in Jesus Christ. Matthew 10 is limited commission Jesus gave to His Apostles only including Judas. All Apostles had been given the Holy Spirit therefore were inspired Matthew 10:19-20. No one today has been given this miraculous inspiration ability only the Apostles here in Matt 10.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Then many disciples left Him, leaving the 12.

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus countered what Peter said in representing the entire group remaining as believing in Him and the apostle John exposed Judas as being the unbeliever that will betray Him that Jesus was talking about.

So Judas was more than just a betrayer, but why he betrayed Him, because he was never a believer.

The temporary indwelling of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 10th chapter was not the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit that was to come at our salvation for believing in Jesus Christ because that promise was to come after Jesus was no longer present with them but had ascended up in Heaven.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Has the Holy Spirit ever brought into remembrance at a certain time you needed to be reminded?

Not sure why you seem to think not being able to recollect every scripture is proof that it was only for the disciples. What about Paul?

Did not the apostle John taught this promise to all believers below?

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.... 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

No, the Holy Spirit only speaks to men today through HIs written word.

Paul was an inspired Apostle, no one today is inspired by the Holy Spirit like Paul. And as an Apostle, he was given the Comforter as it was promised to all the Apostles to bring all things to remembrance to Paul.

1 John 2 says nothing about the Holy Spirit speaking to men today apart from His written word.