Expose on Mormonism.

[Prayer Warrior]

Very important point. I think the distinction is worth ferreting out. It starts with the particular view of the Trinity that the LDS has. That sometimes has them be accused of being polytheists. Their "unity" versus "consubstantiality" version of the Godhead.

In short, as I understand it, that the unity Godhead consists of three distinct Persons, unified in purpose, thought, will and perfection. Whereas the consubstantiality model (Catholic, Protestant, Nondenominational) says there are three distinct Persons, unified in purpose, thought, will and perfection but also made of the same substance.

Now, as I understand it, the Unity model has the three distinct Persons made of the same substance as well. The same substance that we too are made of. (Thus our potential to ultimately be 'Exalted' into the Godhead ourselves if we reach enough perfection.)

This is not true in the consubstantiality Athanasian model. That sees God as unique from us, our essence and substance.

This has a great influence on exactly how the two viewpoints differ in regards to who Christ truly is. And what His sacrifice was meant to accomplish. And what placing our faith in Him means in its entirety and eternally.

I do not question the LDS statement of belief that 'Jesus' and his blood sacrifice is essential to our salvation. But you may be surprised to discover what not bothering to place your faith in Jesus means to the LDS? In most cases, just the lower level of the Terrestrial Kingdom. As they claim one has to try really hard to make it to Hell.

It is a dangerous thing to suggest one can ignore Christ and still go to a 'lesser heaven'. A Heaven still described as unimaginable bliss. This is not something the Jesus that I understand from the Protestant Bible says about Himself. That He directly refutes such thinking. Unless one accepts the LDS teaching that the Father only resides in the Celestial Kingdom and that only (some) Exalted LDS saints will be able to enter and be with, and be like, the Father when they join the Godhead.

I do not think that is what Jesus in the protestant Bible was intending to be understood by His words. The Trinity it seems according to LDS teachings, will always be the Godhead, but will not consists of only three 'gods' ultimately. That we can potentially become equal to Jesus as 'co-children' who attained equal character and perfection to Christ, but not ever equal to the Father.

I am not perfect as neither is anyone else. My understanding is not perfect. I welcome any direct theological correction regarding my above statements. Hopefully beyond a vague and meaningless "just plain wrong" retort.

This is interesting. I'm especially alarmed about the belief of becoming "co-children" in the respect that we will be on the same level as Jesus Christ, who IS God.

 

[amadeus]

You are defending a cult.
You cannot get anybody out of a cult without confronting them.

Neither I nor you can get anybody out of anything be it right or wrong. My point continues to be that this whole approach is in error. This not God's Way.

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

Nothing in there about uprooting or attempting to uproot what we believe to be in error.

 

[Blueberry]

Let me add to clarify what I mean when I say "the same substance".

In the LDS Unity model, I mean the same type of substance. Also claimed to be the same type of substance that we are made from. And apparently 'knowable' in some fashion.

Whereas I understand the Athanasian consubstantiality model to say that the Godhead IS the same substance. Not just type of substance. The 'same batch' if you will. That is unique and unknowable. Not sure if the LDS god-substance is unknowable??

That the LDS Unity model is three distinct and separate Persons unified in character. Yet the monotheistic claim is made because they are so unified in purpose, thought, will and perfection.

 

[CoreIssue]

This is interesting. I'm especially alarmed about the belief of becoming "co-children" in the respect that we will be on the same level as Jesus Christ, who IS God.

As a woman you can never become the equal. At best life of a God's main function is to have babies along with your co-wives.

 

[Blueberry]

As a woman you can never become the equal. At best life of a God's main function is to have babies along with your co-wives.

I think that if she is married to a male Saint who achieves adequate perfection and is also Exalted into the Celestial Kingdom then they, eternally married, are equal? Both becoming part of the Godhead.

The polygamy charges toward the LDS are rather outdated. Though historically accurate.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

As a woman you can never become the equal. At best life of a God's main function is to have babies along with your co-wives.

Why am I not surprised???

 

[CoreIssue]

Neither I nor you can get anybody out of anything be it right or wrong. My point continues to be that this whole approach is in error. This not God's Way.

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

Nothing in there about uprooting or attempting to uproot what we believe to be in error.

The Bible also tells us to not tolerate error, not listen to anyone who teaches another Christ or gospel.

A key feature of a cult is to look for an opening to convert you, if you believe otherwise you're kidding yourself.

They have to be convinced there's a problem and have the desire to check it out. Your way encourages them to be more entrenched.

You are defending a cult.

I think that if she is married to a male Saint who achieves adequate perfection and is also Exalted into the Celestial Kingdom then they, eternally married, are equal? Both becoming part of the Godhead.

The polygamy charges toward, and views of, the LDS are rather outdated. Though historically accurate.

No, they are not equal.

In 1890 polygamy was declared illegal in the LDS for political reasons concerning the federal government.

Celestial marriage is a whole different ballgame. Still very much there. How is a Mormon god supposed to populate his earth with just one wife?

 

[Blueberry]

In 1890 polygamy was declared illegal in the LDS for political reasons concerning the federal government.

So you knew this was illegal for well over 100 years and yet you still made the accusation anyway?

How is a Mormon god supposed to populate his earth with just one wife?

Practice, practice, practice???

We're talking Eternity here, right? There will be time enough.

 

[Blueberry]

Celestial marriage is a whole different ballgame.

How so? Isn't it just a sealed Temple marriage? Isn't it eternal like all LDS marriages?

The ultimate eternal Kingdom location, be it Celestial, Telestial or Terrestrial are dependent on the couple's faithfulness, adherence to covenants and achievement of perfection. And that being with the Father is reserved for only those who are exalted into the Celestial Kingdom.

I think that you may be confusing the fact that an unmarried LDS woman cannot achieve the Celestial Kingdom regardless of her perfection and the rest?

 

[CoreIssue]

So you knew this was illegal for well over 100 years and yet you still made the accusation anyway?

Practice, practice, practice???

We're talking Eternity here, right? There will be time enough.

I was talking about celestial marriage which I believe I noted. Still falling in place.

For terrestrial marriage, here are Mormons that still practice

List of polygamous sects

 

[CoreIssue]

How so? Isn't it just a sealed Temple marriage? Isn't it eternal like all LDS marriages?

The ultimate eternal Kingdom location, be it Celestial, Telestial or Terrestrial are dependent on the couple's faithfulness, adherence to covenants and achievement of perfection. And that being with the Father is reserved for only those who are exalted into the Celestial Kingdom.

I think that you may be confusing the fact that an unmarried LDS woman cannot achieve the Celestial Kingdom regardless of her perfection and the rest?

No. They do terrestrial and celestial marriages.

There is no requirement who was married terrestrial must be married celestial.

But, for a wife to join her husband in heaven he must call her fourth from the grave.

 

[Blueberry]

For terrestrial marriage, here are Mormons that still practice
List of polygamous sects

From your above quoted source...
"The vast majority of groups listed are offshoots of the Mormon Church. They were established after the Mormon Church disavowed polygamy..."

I also now think that your are confusing 'mortal' marriage with the Terrestrial Kingdom. LDS now in this physical earthly life are mortal, not terrestrial.

And, yes, in English "terrestrial" = "earthly". Its not how they use it.

 

[Blueberry]

No. They do terrestrial and celestial marriages.

What is the difference? I am unaware of this distinction. It is a mere secular legal marriage recognized by the State versus a sealed Temple marriage? If not, then what?

And, BTW, congratulations. In your usual minutiae focused style, you've done more to divert the discussion from which Jesus they recognize than anyone else possibly could have. But, by all means, continue...

 

[CoreIssue]

From your above quoted source...
"The vast majority of groups listed are offshoots of the Mormon Church. They were established after the Mormon Church disavowed polygamy..."

I also now think that your are confusing 'mortal' marriage with the Terrestrial Kingdom. LDS now in this physical earthly life are mortal, not terrestrial.

And, yes, in English "terrestrial" = "earthly". Its not how they use it.

There are three levels in Mormonism, Celestial, terrestrial and telestial

Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

 

[CoreIssue]

What is the difference? I am unaware of this distinction. It is a mere secular legal marriage recognized by the State versus a sealed Temple marriage? If not, then what?

And, BTW, congratulations. In your usual minutiae focused style, you've done more to divert the discussion from which Jesus they recognize than anyone else possibly could have. But, by all means, continue...

The thread is about Mormonism and not limited to the Jesus of Mormonism.

How much clearer can it be there Jesus was born to the father and one of his wives as a spirit child which in turn was put in the body of Mary on the earth to gain a flesh body.

There Jesus is the birth brother of Satan.

The thread is about Mormonism and not limited to the Jesus of Mormonism.

How much clearer can it be there Jesus was born to the father and one of his wives as a spirit child which in turn was put in the body of Mary on the earth to gain a flesh body.

There Jesus is the birth brother of Satan.

Jedediah M. Grant, Second Counselor to Brigham Young the Second Prophet of the LDS Church:

• 
  "Celsus was a heathen philosopher; and what does he say upon the subject of Christ and his Apostles, and their belief? He says, the 'grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was because He had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed Him.' After Jesus went from the stage of action, the Apostles followed the example of their master. . . The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, casing his crucifixion, was evidently based on polygamy,. . .a belief in the doctrine of plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus, and his followers. We might almost think they were 'Mormons' " (Journal of Discourses, Vol 1. ppl 345-346)

Do Mormons Believe that Jesus Christ Was Married and Practiced Polygamy

 

[Helen]

Hi, Jane, I've read through a lot of this thread, and I really don't see the abuse you're talking about. It's clear that many basic Mormon beliefs are completely unbiblical. So, are those of us who see this not supposed to refute your claims?

Edit: I would like to add that I've seen real abuse on forums with name calling and mean-spirited comments. I don't see that here.

My contention on this thread is..why pick on her?
I find a LOT of posts , by MANY christians, of all walks of christianity on this Site ...have posted the most loopy and strange beliefs!!

It is so easy to judge other peoples hearts ...yet leave our own unchallenged. I think we will find that our own hearts are not quite as holy and we think that they are!

As I said earlier...it is so easy to start a thread like this one "against" something we don't believe.. ie, lets bash the Catholics, lets bash the Mormons, lets bash those who speak in tongues.

Yet we note that very few threads are started to Glorify the the Lord.
Much easier to just argue some point...about some stupid subject which changes nothing in our hearts or moves us one inch closer to our precious Lord.

I am finding less and less any threads that I am interested in posting on....I read, and find just endless discussions about meaningless things.
So I look, and I leave again...hoping that the next time I come on here I will see some life among the dead bones.

 

[Blueberry]

There are three levels in Mormonism, Celestial, terrestrial and telestial

Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion - MormonWiki

Not three levels, but three destinations. There are an almost infinite number of 'levels' depending on the progression of the Saint as they aspire to be like God.

But I do think that you were almost onto something in regards to the marriage topic. Mortal marriages are not automatically 'upgraded' to a Celestial Marriage without the desire of the couple to spend eternity together, make a covenant saying so in front of a Temple priest and then remain faithful to that covenant/pledge. This is done in a sealed marriage in the Temple to the best of my knowledge. This is what a sealed marriage is to the best of my knowledge.

Whether mortal marriages are absolved due to disinterest in other Kingdom destinations, I do not know? I assume they do continue in those Kingdoms as well? Provided people desire so. And the Telestial Kingdom may be the highest that an unmarried female can achieve. Again, not certain of this.

But is this really what you are concerned about?? The LDS's marriage practices in the afterlife? You have to know that polygamy originated in the OT right?

 

[brakelite]

Jesus the flesh and blood man is the son of God. But his spirit is God and not the son of God.

So John 3:16 is not true? God did not send His only begotten Son into the world? But some spirit equal in all respects to two other spirits pretending to be a son?

Eternal punishment is not eternal punishing? That makes no sense.

Make all the sense in the world of you are honest. What is the wages of sin? Death yes? So death is the eternal punishment yes? How then can someone who is dead be aware they are being punished? How can someone completely separated from the only source of life, still be alive? When is it that sinners receive the gift of eternal life instead of dying as the scriptures tell us?

 

[Helen]

Well said @brakelite

 

[brakelite]

My contention on this thread is..why pick on her?
I find a LOT of posts , by MANY christians, of all walks of christianity on this Site ...have posted the most loopy and strange beliefs!!

It is so easy to judge other peoples hearts ...yet leave our own unchallenged. I think we will find that our own hearts are not quite as holy and we think that they are!

As I said earlier...it is so easy to start a thread like this one "against" something we don't believe.. ie, lets bash the Catholics, lets bash the Mormons, lets bash those who speak in tongues.

Yet we note that very few threads are started to Glorify the the Lord.
Much easier to just argue some point...about some stupid subject which changes nothing in our hearts or moves us one inch closer to our precious Lord.

I am finding less and less any threads that I am interested in posting on....I read, and find just endless discussions about meaningless things.
So I look, and I leave again...hoping that the next time I come on here I will see some life among the dead bones.

Until the particular sect becomes a clear and present danger to us all, and only by exposing their true nature are we all informed and have the will and sensibilities to steer away from, and others as well. It is dubious as to whether Mormonism comes under that classification. I could name another that does. Deception many forms... The ones that already have mankind intoxicated are the ones needing to be exposed.