Extra Virgin Olive Oil (a parable)

[Mr E]

Hebrews 8:5 LITV
who serve the pattern of and shadow of heavenly things, even as Moses was divinely warned, being about to make the tabernacle: For He says, "See that you make all things according to the pattern being shown to you in the mount."

There was much detail given about all these things Moses was to make, the tables and altars and structure, the lavers and tools, the menorah, all of these, with specific and detailed instructions on each.

I think that Moses did exactly as he was told. The reason he was not allowed into the promised land is given that he struck the rock instead of speaking to the rock. No?

Much love!

All the things Moses was shown were 'in the cloud' and 'on the mountain' -- the very place and manner that he was commanded to NOT make a copy of any of the heavenly things he was shown.

How do we know these were heavenly things?

We are told directly, if you are patient-- I'll show you.

 

[marks]

All the things Moses was shown were 'in the cloud' and 'on the mountain' -- the very place and manner that he was commanded to NOT make a copy of any of the heavenly things he was shown.

How do we know these were heavenly things?

We are told directly, if you are patient-- I'll show you.

It's like when God commanded them to not murder, and then God commanded them to commit genocide. When they do it on their own, it's wrong. When they do it because God commands it, it's not wrong.

Moses was told to make all these things according to what he was shown, and he did so. You assert he was wrong to do so. I assert he was being obedient to God's command.

Much love!

 

[Mr E]

It's like when God commanded them to not murder, and then God commanded them to commit genocide. When they do it on their own, it's wrong. When they do it because God commands it, it's not wrong.

Moses was told to make all these things according to what he was shown, and he did so. You assert he was wrong to do so. I assert he was being obedient to God's command.

Much love!

You can "assert" whatever you like. I'm only telling you what scripture says.

On the mountain, in the cloud- Moses was shown and told many heavenly things. He was commanded by God not to make any copies of any heavenly things. Let me ask you this--

If you had a dream, and in that dream God told you to build a house.... and He told you the exact dimensions and gave you exact directions on how to build it....... and then He said--- Listen-- Do NOT make a copy of any of these things that I am showing you.

What would you do? In the dream He told you what to do and how to do it, and then He also told you NOT to make a copy of any of those things He showed you. Kind of a pickle, right?

 

[marks]

You can "assert" whatever you like. I'm only telling you what scripture says.

On the mountain, in the cloud- Moses was shown and told many heavenly things. He was commanded by God not to make any copies of any heavenly things. Let me ask you this--

If you had a dream, and in that dream God told you to build a house.... and He told you the exact dimensions and gave you exact directions on how to build it....... and then He said--- Listen-- Do NOT make a copy of any of these things that I am showing you.

What would you do? In the dream He told you what to do and how to do it, and then He also told you NOT to make a copy of any of those things He showed you. Kind of a pickle, right?

Your understanding causes you to cancel out the meaning of many verses of Scritpure. I don't think that shows a correct understanding. I think true understandings will harmonize all the passages, without needing to negate even a single letter.

It's not a pickle when you understand it.

Much love!

 

[Mr E]

When Zechariah saw these same things that Moses was shown-- he didn't think for a moment that a (heavenly) lampstand seen in spirit was the exact equivalent of an earthly lampstand, like the one in the temple. What you see, is not what you get.

The angelic messenger who had been speaking with me then returned and woke me, as a person is wakened from sleep. He asked me, “What do you see?”

I replied, “I see a menorah of pure gold with a receptacle at the top. There are seven lamps at the top, with seven pipes going to the lamps. There are also two olive trees beside it, one on the right of the receptacle and the other on the left.”

Then I asked the messenger who spoke with me, “What are these, sir?”

He replied, “Don’t you know what these are?”

So I responded, “No, sir.” Therefore he told me, “This is the LORD’s message to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by strength and not by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the LORD of Heaven’s Armies.

These seven eyes will joyfully look on the tin tablet in Zerubbabel’s hand. These are the eyes of the LORD, which constantly range across the whole earth.” (the seven eyes on the stone that was set before Yeshua, the high priest)

Next I asked the messenger, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the menorah?” Before he could reply I asked again, “What are these two extensions of the olive trees, which are emptying out the golden oil through the two golden pipes?” He replied, “Don’t you know what these are?” And I said, “No, sir.”


Zechariah is shown the lampstand with the seven branches, each with a lamp on top and it's receptacle for oil, and on either side of the lampstand there are two olive trees from which two streams of golden olive oil flow, supplying oil to each of these seven lamps. The first clear explanation is provided by the angel--

So he said, “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”

 

[Mr E]

Your understanding causes you to cancel out the meaning of many verses of Scritpure. I don't think that shows a correct understanding. I think true understandings will harmonize all the passages, without needing to negate even a single letter.

It's not a pickle when you understand it.

Much love!

Perhaps you should be explaining it to me.

 

[marks]

Perhaps you should be explaining it to me.

Perhaps if you begin with the understanding that all the passages of the Bible should be taken very seriously in what they say, and that we cannot come to correct interpretations if we think one passage will negate another.

Just like killing. God commanded thou shalt not kill, and God commanded genocide. Which was right? Don't kill? Or kill 'em all? Each should be received in it's own right, in it's own context.

There is no "playing Scripture against Scripture". There is no, "this doesn't mean what it says because of how I understand another passage".

If its called a symbol, and the symbol is defined, like the examples given, receive it as a symbol. But because a horse is used in one passage as a symbol, that doesn't mean every horse in the Bible is symbolic, does it?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Your understanding causes you to cancel out the meaning of many verses of Scritpure. I don't think that shows a correct understanding. I think true understandings will harmonize all the passages, without needing to negate even a single letter.

It's not a pickle when you understand it.

Much love!

@Mr E

What part did you consider funny?

Just wondering . . .

Much love!

 

[Adam]

If its called a symbol, and the symbol is defined, like the examples given, receive it as a symbol. But because a horse is used in one passage as a symbol, that doesn't mean every horse in the Bible is symbolic, does it?

When God forbade kings from amassing horses, it wasn't because the animals are somehow offensive to God, but because physical horses represent military power. So in a certain way, everything can be said to be a symbol of something. I mean, look at the words I'm writing, it's nothing but symbols on the screen. Do the words literally exist or do they exist symbolically? Or is there even a distinction?

 

[Mr E]

When God forbade kings from amassing horses, it wasn't because the animals are somehow offensive to God, but because physical horses represent military power. So in a certain way, everything can be said to be a symbol of something. I mean, look at the words I'm writing, it's nothing but symbols on the screen. Do the words literally exist or do they exist symbolically? Or is there even a distinction?

A horse is a horse. If you see one in your barn-- it's a horse.

If you see one in a dream (spiritual vision) it's not a horse.

Once more I looked, and this time I saw four chariots emerging from between two mountains of bronze. Harnessed to the first chariot were red horses, to the second black horses, to the third white horses, and to the fourth spotted horses, all of them strong.

Then I asked the angelic messenger who was speaking with me, “What are these, sir?”

The messenger replied, “These are the four spirits of heaven going out after presenting themselves before the Lord of all the earth. The chariot with the black horses is going to the north country, and the white ones are going after them, but the spotted ones are going to the south country. All these strong ones are scattering; they have sought permission to go and walk about over the earth.” The Lord had said, “Go! Walk about over the earth!” So they are doing so.

 

[Mr E]

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day when I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, saying: “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches—to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea.”

I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands was one like a son of man.

---- the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

 

[mailmandan]

The wording of the five foolish virgins in our text is all too familiar to the reader of Matthew’s Gospel: Matthew 25:11 - "Later, the other virgins came too, saying, ‘Lord, lord! Let us in!’ 12 But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you!"

Matthew 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven" but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven - (See John 6:40). 22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful works?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

Taking Matthew’s words literally, I read that the difference between the foolish virgins and the wise virgins: The wise virgins had oil for their lamps, while the foolish virgins did not. The wise virgins had the opportunity to obtain oil, and did so. The foolish virgins had plenty of opportunity to procure oil, but did not. It's possible to be in close contact with Christ, and with Christians, and yet not be saved. I am reminded of a similar passage in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 13:23 Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" So he said to them, 24 "Exert every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, then you will stand outside and start to knock on the door and beg him, ‘Lord, let us in!’ But he will answer you, ‘I don’t know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will reply, ‘I don’t know where you come from! Go away from me, all you evildoers!’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves thrown out. 29 Then people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and take their places at the banquet table in the kingdom of God. 30 But indeed, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."

Jesus may indeed be warning us in this parable that there will be a number of people who look like Christians, who associate with Christians, and who even think they are Christians, who will be shocked to learn that they are not saved at the return of our Lord and Christ never knew them. What a sobering thought!

 

[Adam]

A horse is a horse. If you see one in your barn-- it's a horse.

If you see one in a dream (spiritual vision) it's not a horse.

Or inversely, if you see one in a spiritual vision (a glimpse into the perfect mind of God), it's a horse truer than any other horse. But if you see one in your barn (amid the hazy false illusion of materialism) it's not a horse, it's just dust animated by an imperfect reflection of the Creator.

I suppose what I am trying to say is, that our entire existence is symbolic. We think in symbols, the symbol of a horse; the symbol of a temple; etc. So how can we experience anything except by the impressions these symbols leave on us? Saying something isn't real because it's symbolic is ridiculous, because everything is a symbol. So what does it mean, nullifying scriptures by calling things symbolic? What even is a temple? It's a pile of bricks, but it is the feeling it evokes that makes it holy. That feeling of holiness is the reality.

 

[marks]

When God forbade kings from amassing horses, it wasn't because the animals are somehow offensive to God, but because physical horses represent military power. So in a certain way, everything can be said to be a symbol of something. I mean, look at the words I'm writing, it's nothing but symbols on the screen. Do the words literally exist or do they exist symbolically? Or is there even a distinction?

I understand and agree with what you are saying, remembering that there were in fact horses that the kings were admonished to not amass. They represented power because they increased your power when you are on them. But only because they were real flesh and blood animals.

We can understand our current existence to be merely a shadow of reality, yet it is still the place in which we live. At a functional level, we understand these things to be what they are, so we can all share a common experience. The one who looks at a horse and believes they are seeing a hawk, we would consider them to be delusional.

Much love!

 

[marks]

In Joseph's dream, in Mary's dream, in Zechariah's vision, each saw an angel, in a dream, in a vision, an angel. Is that in fact what they saw?

This is a test question, and how you answer will reveal something about your thinking.

Much love!

 

[Adam]

In Joseph's dream, in Mary's dream, in Zechariah's vision, each saw an angel, in a dream, in a vision, an angel. Is that in fact what they saw?

This is a test question, and how you answer will reveal something about your thinking.

Much love!

Mankind can never view God's true face, so we see only "images" of God. Just a small fraction of God's personality and power, like an angel, or another person, perhaps.

 

[Mr E]

I understand and agree with what you are saying, remembering that there were in fact horses that the kings were admonished to not amass. They represented power because they increased your power when you are on them. But only because they were real flesh and blood animals.

We can understand our current existence to be merely a shadow of reality, yet it is still the place in which we live. At a functional level, we understand these things to be what they are, so we can all share a common experience. The one who looks at a horse and believes they are seeing a hawk, we would consider them to be delusional.

Much love!

This puts you in agreement with @Adam as well as @Episkopos who wrote:

"It should be noted that at one point all the virgins of Israel (including the Church of Christ) will have fallen asleep....

-When our time in the simulation is finally over, the human soul will continue to live beyond the perceptions we have had of this world through the carnal senses.

He describes this life as a simulation that began with the fall of Adam and Eve, who he says were forced to live in a lower order of reality where the Devil and his angels had hijacked God's creation.

"Now it takes faith to acknowledge that this present world is only a temporal simulation of reality" -he writes.

You might be surprised to find yourself in such close alignment with his beliefs @marks

 

[marks]

This puts you in agreement with
He describes this life as a simulation that began with the fall of Adam and Eve, who he says were forced to live in a lower order of reality where the Devil and his angels had hijacked God's creation.

[I]"Now it takes faith to acknowledge that this present world is only a temporal simulation of reality"[/I] -he writes.

You might be surprised to find yourself in such close alignment with his beliefs [USER=7985]@marks

In a word, no.

I'm curious, are you able to restate my thinking on this in maybe a few sentences? I'm interested to learn if you do know what I think.

Yes?

I'll give a hint. I actually meant exactly what I wrote. We can think of existance this way, but we are living at a functional level where that's really actually beside the point. Call it a shadow, call it a simulation, it is passing away, while that which will never pass away remains.

The main thing to remember is that. The form of this world is passing away, therefore set your affections on what is above.

All that other stuff about the devil and his angels hijacking creation and all that, I can't imagine where you've seen anything resembling that in anything I've ever written.

?

Much love!

 

[Mr E]

Or inversely, if you see one in a spiritual vision (a glimpse into the perfect mind of God), it's a horse truer than any other horse. But if you see one in your barn (amid the hazy false illusion of materialism) it's not a horse, it's just dust animated by an imperfect reflection of the Creator.

I suppose what I am trying to say is, that our entire existence is symbolic. We think in symbols, the symbol of a horse; the symbol of a temple; etc. So how can we experience anything except by the impressions these symbols leave on us? Saying something isn't real because it's symbolic is ridiculous, because everything is a symbol. So what does it mean, nullifying scriptures by calling things symbolic? What even is a temple? It's a pile of bricks, but it is the feeling it evokes that makes it holy. That feeling of holiness is the reality.

Why speculate?

I was attentive that night and saw a man seated on a red horse that stood among some myrtle trees in the ravine. Behind him were red, sorrel, and white horses.

Then I asked one nearby, “What are these, sir?” (referring to the horses of various colors)

The angelic messenger who replied to me said, “I will show you what these are.” Then the man standing among the myrtle trees spoke up and said, “These are the ones whom the LORD has sent to walk about on the earth.” The riders then agreed with the angel of the LORD, who was standing among the myrtle trees, “We have been walking about on the earth, and now everything is at rest and quiet.” The angel of the LORD then asked, “O LORD of Heaven’s Armies, how long before you have compassion on Jerusalem and the other cities of Judah that you have been so angry with for these 70 years?” The LORD then addressed good, comforting words to the angelic messenger who was speaking to me. Turning to me, the messenger then said, “Cry out that the LORD of Heaven’s Armies says, ‘I am very much moved for Jerusalem and for Zion. But I am greatly displeased with the nations that take my grace for granted. I was a little displeased with them, but they have only made things worse for themselves.

Horses-- and riders.
--and we are told that these horses (and riders) are the ones sent walking about the earth. Spirits? Angels? Demons? Job tells us that they are 'sons of God' and Zechariah tells us that the Lord is the one who sent them out on patrol....


Now the day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD—and Satan also arrived among them. The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” And Satan answered the LORD, “From roving about on the earth, and from walking back and forth across it.” So the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and turns away from evil.”

 

[Mr E]

In a word, no.

I'm curious, are you able to restate my thinking on this in maybe a few sentences? I'm interested to learn if you do know what I think.

Yes?

Much love!

How you think on this is your concern, not mine.