Extra Virgin Olive Oil (a parable)

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marks

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How you think on this is your concern, not mine.
I was just wondering, since you've been responding to me, if you even knew what I think on this. But it's becoming pretty clear you don't. So I don't really know what you are responding to. Your other post though gave me more understanding of how you are thinking here.

Much love!
 

Mr E

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Carrying on..... We don't have to speculate because these things are explained in scripture.

We have a window into the spiritual/heavenly realm where things seen have a spiritual truth as reality, and only a likeness in the physical world. A horse is what carries a rider.... as seen in a spiritual context, both horse and rider are spiritual, not physical.

A lampstand is not a lampstand. A lamp is not a lamp.... and so on. What then? The one revealing these things to John is Jesus Christ-- sending his angel/messenger to John who witnesses what is recorded for us, so that we might understand in just the same way these things were explained to him. He sees this 'angel' holding seven stars in his right hand..... and then he begins explaining things- revealing the truth behind the mystery.

The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
 
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Mr E

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That's pretty clear, no?

Stars = Angels (seven of them) of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are those seven churches.

The lamps are on top of the lampstands, fed by this oil supplied from the two olive trees on either side, and the flame of each is shown to be a spirit/angel/messenger of God - to each of these seven churches.
 
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Mr E

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Wrapping this one up....

The oil is supplied by the people and it is what 'powers' the light of the lamps. The lights are angels and the lamps are the vessels that hold the oil. The lampstands are the seven churches and they hold the lamps that hold the oil that comes from God's anointed witnesses, which feeds the flame.


The seven flaming torches, which are the seven spirits of God, were burning in front of the throne.
 

Adam

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This puts you in agreement with @Adam as well as @Episkopos who wrote:

"It should be noted that at one point all the virgins of Israel (including the Church of Christ) will have fallen asleep....

-When our time in the simulation is finally over, the human soul will continue to live beyond the perceptions we have had of this world through the carnal senses.


He describes this life as a simulation that began with the fall of Adam and Eve, who he says were forced to live in a lower order of reality where the Devil and his angels had hijacked God's creation.

"Now it takes faith to acknowledge that this present world is only a temporal simulation of reality" -he writes.

You might be surprised to find yourself in such close alignment with his beliefs @marks
I wouldn't so much say that the Devil hijacked God's creation, but rather that God created our reality for the Devil's education and let him have a hand in it (God knew there was a serpent in the garden). We see in the book of Job, that God is actively teaching the Devil moral lessons and giving him power over peoples' lives to tempt them. The Devil is still a child of God.

In Genesis, there is this verse:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Devil's children will bruise Mankind's heel (IE deceive us) and we will bruise their head (IE knock sense into them, or pile burning coals on their head as Jesus might say). The Devil's children will try to drag mankind down, but instead mankind will overcome these challenges and teach them a lesson instead. Christ was the first to overcome, then his first-fruits, then the rest of mankind in their own time, and in the furthest aeons, even the darkest part of the spirit realm will be redeemed. This is the only view compatible with the idea of the unconditional love of God.
 

Adam

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Why speculate?

I was attentive that night and saw a man seated on a red horse that stood among some myrtle trees in the ravine. Behind him were red, sorrel, and white horses.

Then I asked one nearby, “What are these, sir?”
(referring to the horses of various colors)

The angelic messenger who replied to me said, “I will show you what these are.” Then the man standing among the myrtle trees spoke up and said, “These are the ones whom the LORD has sent to walk about on the earth.” The riders then agreed with the angel of the LORD, who was standing among the myrtle trees, “We have been walking about on the earth, and now everything is at rest and quiet.” The angel of the LORD then asked, “O LORD of Heaven’s Armies, how long before you have compassion on Jerusalem and the other cities of Judah that you have been so angry with for these 70 years?” The LORD then addressed good, comforting words to the angelic messenger who was speaking to me. Turning to me, the messenger then said, “Cry out that the LORD of Heaven’s Armies says, ‘I am very much moved for Jerusalem and for Zion. But I am greatly displeased with the nations that take my grace for granted. I was a little displeased with them, but they have only made things worse for themselves.

Horses-- and riders.
--and we are told that these horses (and riders) are the ones sent walking about the earth. Spirits? Angels? Demons? Job tells us that they are 'sons of God' and Zechariah tells us that the Lord is the one who sent them out on patrol....


Now the day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD—and Satan also arrived among them. The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” And Satan answered the LORD, “From roving about on the earth, and from walking back and forth across it.” So the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and turns away from evil.”
So one thing represents another, but who is to say, the vision was not what is real (just on another spiritual plane where existence is more formless) and this world is not just a lowered state of consciousness? Though I agree with your point - that the symbols of a divine vision, and the objects of our reality, are different but have direct correspondence with eachother, and they share some kind of underlying logic. I never disputed this.

The main thing to remember is that. The form of this world is passing away, therefore set your affections on what is above.

Though I agree we should seek the highest ideals and highest virtues, for the love of God and love of Christ; and that our world is temporary and undesirable to be attached to; I reject, in a certain sense, that our existence, or even hell, is punishment delivered out of genuine wrath by God (who is all-loving and all-merciful) but rather, it is a state of consciousness which is conductive to a certain type of contemplation, and even pain has value. Not that I think pain is something we should seek, but rather it is something necessary at times, it teaches a lesson. Penance is cleansing. Some religions believe that enlightened souls come from above back to down to this world to help others achieve enlightenment. So, is it really that bad? While we're here we have the ability to uplift the lives of others.

There is this webcomic (long defunct) that I really liked called A Lesson Is Learned. In it, two clouds lament about being formless and wanting to have a permanent body, so the devil gives them a pair of boots comprised of "all the worries that binds one to the world". Once on the ground in permanent bodies, the clouds become filled with desire for things and miserable when they can't obtain them. They want to go back into the sky but can't take off the boots. They go to a spiritual guru (actually a 1 year old boy who can only say "why"). They ask him to take off the boots, and he says "Why?".

Why take off the boots? Why worry? Why hate our current condition? It is exactly as it should be or God wouldn't have made it this way. Let's take full advantage of what we can do here, while we're here.
 

Mr E

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Finally-- just as in the spiritual understanding these elements have meanings and associations that are apart from what they appear to be (a lampstand is a church/body of believers for example-- the flame is associated with the spirits of God, and so on) each element mentioned has special and significant meaning. Horses are not horses, a lamb is not a lamb, a man is a spiritual, not a physical man, --and a physical man is depicted not as a man at all-- but as a tree. A tree or plant that has grown from seed as first explained by Jesus himself in that all important first parable that he detailed. And that matters. The fruit of humanity is for the delight of God, our Father and that's about all one needs to know. Things on earth are made in the image, or likeness of the heavenly-- but they are not exact copies (sorry Moses). It's on earth as (like) it is in heaven. But not exactly so.

When seen 'in spirit' and I don't care how anyone wants to parse that- dream, vision- it's all of the same genre.... -These "animals" are not earthly, physical animals. They are spiritual 'beings' in the same way that "men" in spirit are spiritual beings. The same way that you-- when you dream are 'in spirit' and it isn't the physical "you" that is there, but the spiritual you. In other words, from the heavenly perspective-- these 'animals' are depicted by attributes of that spiritual essence.

A horse (from the heavenly perspective) is expressive of 'one who carries' or 'a worker' --- or any number of things that we would associate with horses-- horse power, plowing, planting, strength, even an instrument of war, or simply as a means to deliver messages.

One stark example of this principle that few might dispute is described in Rev 5 where we are shown this heavenly perspective of something unmistakable.... We see 'the lion' of the tribe of Judah had overcome so as to be able to open the book with the seven seals. Immediately we see that same one who was just depicted as a lion, now shown to be a lamb. Same one--- it's just that the scene unfolding in spirit is using these associations to express different spiritual attributes through association.... The lion-- powerful and triumphant after the fact, but because of prior presentation as a sacrifice as this lamb---- who had been slain. It's unquestionably depicting Jesus in both instances and it's not that he is one and not the other.... he was both lion and lamb because these are not physical creatures, but spiritual attributes offered for the associations they provide us. Spiritual attributes-- that is 'that spirit' we recognize in the passage as Jesus is in one sense like a lion, and at another time was like a lamb-- in both cases it refers to the spirit in Jesus sent from the Father. The son of God-- spirit, sent to the son of man-- Jesus.

Jesus-- the human was human and neither a lion, nor a lamb. The scene above is overwhelming to the senses, but the image below we can now comprehend only because we have the benefit of history and we know the story and how it unfolded. Apart from our knowledge of Jesus and all we know of him as a man, the scene above would remain shrouded in mystery, and to some seemingly nonsense.


How does one get oil from an olive? It has to be pressed. Like the blood of a grape-- it doesn't give it up willingly. Grapes must be crushed. Wheat must be threshed.

All images of the tribulation required of man to yield his purpose.
 

Adam

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This may be quite tangential, but I have always as a kid thought that the Son of Man was kind of a weird title for Jesus to give himself. Aren't we all sons of Man? It's like he's walking around saying he's "THE Human". I don't think the title means "Jesus is a human" but rather that Jesus is the offspring of humanity. That is, the spiritual product of mankind as a whole. God created mankind in order to produce Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God through Mankind.
 

Mr E

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This may be quite tangential, but I have always as a kid thought that the Son of Man was kind of a weird title for Jesus to give himself. Aren't we all sons of Man? It's like he's walking around saying he's "THE Human". I don't think the title means "Jesus is a human" but rather that Jesus is the offspring of humanity. That is, the spiritual product of mankind as a whole. God created mankind in order to produce Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God through Mankind.

Jesus was physical. A real boy, not some sort of Pinnochio who became a boy. Jesus was born here. Son of man.

The Son of God is spirit, as the Father is spirit.

Flesh gives birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit.
 

Adam

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Jesus was physical. A real boy, not some sort of Pinnochio who became a boy. Jesus was born here. Son of man.

The Son of God is spirit, as the Father is spirit.

Flesh gives birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit.
What I mean is, that Jesus was perfected to unity with God via Mankind.

Revelation 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus was granted to sit in God's throne because He overcame the world.

In some traditions, it is believed that Adam became David, who became the Messiah (and with probably a lot more in between). This is why the Messiah is called the Son of David.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
 

Mr E

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What I mean is, that Jesus was perfected to unity with God via Mankind.

Revelation 3:21
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus was granted to sit in God's throne because He overcame the world.

In some traditions, it is believed that Adam became David, who became the Messiah (and with probably a lot more in between). This is why the Messiah is called the Son of David.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
That would be a surprising and interesting read. What traditions would that be?
 
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Adam

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That would be a surprising and interesting read. What traditions would that be?
Sects of St. Thomas Christianity and Judaism

Quotes below where God calls David the Messiah:

Jeremiah 33
15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

Ezekiel 34
23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

Ezekiel 37
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

You'll notice the similarities between Adam and David as well, in their relationship to women. David saw the soul of Eve in Bathsheba and wanted her restored to him. In fact - it was always meant to be his destiny to have her, Uriah was not actually killed by David, he dies by coincidence during the war and David's murder plot was never enacted. David's flaw was that he didn't wait for God to sanctify the union. Likely Adam's sin was having sex with Eve before God sanctified it, and thereby creating Mankind in a fallen state; and since the crime was to cause mankind to fall, the restitution is to give mankind salvation: Jesus.

...Also, John the Baptist is Elijah

Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Luke 1
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

The weak arguments by "one life and you're done" advocates is that David "symbolized" the Messiah or Elias "symbolized" John. As though a "symbol" has no meaning, and they can nullify things they don't understand by waving it off as symbolic. As you and I know, the symbol has all the meaning and not the flesh, as the symbol is what is spiritually true, while the flesh is just a vessel for the spirit.
 
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Mr E

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Sects of St. Thomas Christianity and Judaism

Quotes below where God calls David the Messiah:

Jeremiah 33
15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

Ezekiel 34
23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

Ezekiel 37
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

You'll notice the similarities between Adam and David as well, in their relationship to women. David saw the soul of Eve in Bathsheba and wanted her restored to him. In fact - it was always meant to be his destiny to have her, Uriah was not actually killed by David, he dies by coincidence during the war and David's murder plot was never enacted. David's flaw was that he didn't wait for God to sanctify the union. Likely Adam's sin was having sex with Eve before God sanctified it, and thereby creating Mankind in a fallen state; and since the crime was to cause mankind to fall, the restitution is to give mankind salvation: Jesus.

...Also, John the Baptist is Elijah

Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Luke 1
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

The weak arguments by "one life and you're done" advocates is that David "symbolized" the Messiah or Elias "symbolized" John. As though a "symbol" has no meaning, and they can nullify things they don't understand by waving it off as symbolic. As you and I know, the symbol has all the meaning and not the flesh, as the symbol is what is spiritually true, while the flesh is just a vessel for the spirit.

I can do ya one better.

This thread has run its course, but have you ever considered Adam to be a reflection (image) of God, Himself? (our Father) - The family tree from which all sons have come.

Would make an interesting thread.
 
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Adam

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I can do ya one better.

This thread has run its course, but have you ever considered Adam to be a reflection (image) of God, Himself? (our Father) - The family tree from which all sons have come.

Would make an interesting thread.
I think considering too hard how mankind reflects God is too dangerous for a tiny mind like mine. The man of sin sits in the temple of God, showing himself he is God. As the apostle Paul said, let me shrink so that the Holy Spirit can grow. There is a part of us that wants to believe we are God, and paradoxically, to return to God that is the part of ourself we have to destroy.
 

VictoryinJesus

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We are told in the book of James.

But if anyone is deficient in wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to all generously and without reprimand, and it will be given to him.


It's advice for fools. It's advice for those with no extra oil.

But the foolish ones didn't recognize God as the one to ask for the wisdom they lacked. They thought they could get it from others-

The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil because our lamps are going out.’


The wise ones left them in their deficient state-- 'You think you can obtain wisdom on your own? Have at 'er....'

Go instead to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’


The parable tells us the result of their efforts.

But while they had gone to buy it, the bridegroom arrived, and those who were ready went inside with him to the wedding banquet. Then the door was shut. Later, the other virgins came too, saying, ‘Lord, lord! Let us in!’ But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you!’ Therefore stay alert because you do not know the day or the hour.

It's not that you can't obtain wisdom on your own. There are folks willing to sell it to you. You can pay $44.31 on Amazon and get a certain brand of wisdom, or you can pay $60K a year in tuition and get another kind.

Or you can ask the Father, who supplies oil to any who ask, and a certain amount to those who don't even bother-- for free.
Here I have a question. Concerning you can’t get oil from someone else …why did the wise have extra? (Equipped) Something they did right on their part? Or who gave (provided) (equipped) them with extra oil, and for what purpose?

Having extra virgin olive oil, the extra reminds me of: 2 Corinthians 8:14-15 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality: [15] As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.

In searching for the above verse, I came across the below which I have never paid attention to “that my joy is the joy of you all” in relation to the parable. 2 Corinthians 2:3-10 And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all. [4] For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that you might know the love which I have more abundantly (extra oil?) unto you. [5] But if any have caused grief, he has not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. [6] Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. [7] So that contrariwise you ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. [8] Wherefore I beseech you that you would confirm your love toward him. [9] For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether you be obedient in all things. [10] To whom you forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
 

Mr E

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Here I have a question. Concerning you can’t get oil from someone else …why did the wise have extra? (Equipped) Something they did right on their part? Or who gave (provided) (equipped) them with extra oil, and for what purpose?

Having extra virgin olive oil, the extra reminds me of: 2 Corinthians 8:14-15 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality: [15] As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.

In searching for the above verse, I came across the below which I have never paid attention to “that my joy is the joy of you all” in relation to the parable. 2 Corinthians 2:3-10 And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all. [4] For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that you might know the love which I have more abundantly (extra oil?) unto you. [5] But if any have caused grief, he has not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. [6] Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. [7] So that contrariwise you ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. [8] Wherefore I beseech you that you would confirm your love toward him. [9] For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether you be obedient in all things. [10] To whom you forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

Seems odd, doesn't it? I do love how you work to connect dots and fix puzzle pieces together.

The concept is actually-- 'to each, their own.' He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.

You are responsible for you, and I'm responsible for me-- not me for you or you for me. The quote comes from Exodus and it was about the supply of the bread from heaven (manna) -- which we relate to wisdom, or knowledge that God provides us. If one were to gather in more than he should, he'd find it spoiled (rotted) overnight and good for nothing. If one gathered nothing, he'd have nothing and no one else would have any extra to offer him. While we do have a duty or obligation to others concerning physical needs, the parables are not about physical elements, but spiritual concepts. The wheat (seed), the bread, the fruit, the oil.... all of these things have meanings that though hidden from the casual observer, the one willing to do the work to connect those dots and the one who allows Jesus to break the bread (knowledge) into bite-sized pieces which he freely shares-- that one recognizes Jesus as the key to understanding.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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You are responsible for you, and I'm responsible for me-- not me for you or you for me.
I do see your point.
2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith you stand.
 

Mr E

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I do see your point.
2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith you stand.

If you let your mind wander a little, there is a sense of personal responsibility involved. Of all the thousands Jesus spoke to, there were only a dozen who "followed" him as disciples.... who truly fed off his teachings. If you can imagine breaking bread with him, listening to him intently and connecting those dots. On the table, the oil and the wine.... dipping each piece of bread into the mix as he shared.

If you recognize him as the bread that came down from heaven.... he gave of himself. What a person received of him is in effect a matter of how receptive they were at the time--- their soul/soil condition.