I did not ignore the verse you gave me. In fact I considered it. Only that it does not really say what you say about atonement being all about providing forgiveness of sin.
Tong
R1952
Faith, Work, and Spirit--Tong
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Tong
R1952
Satan tempting mankind does not necessarily put men in duress, so that all men forcibly sin. Even with the case of Eve, Eve was tempted by the serpent, but the serpent did not forcibly have Eve sin. That is positive proof of my view that all human sin is done under duress is false.
Yes you did quote a verse. But as I said, we have a different understanding of the verse.Tong, I quoted you a passage that indicates *Jesus* believed faith is a work--not just me. I get my belief from him, as well as from the common sense understanding that "works of faith" require that faith have "works!"
Jesus said the work of God is that they believe in Him (Jesus) whom He sent. Jesus is talking about the work of God there. And I just believe what it says, Randy.
Why one comes to believe in Jesus Christ, is because God worked that out, by giving him faith.
Clearly, we don’t have the same mind about what faith and love is. My take may be absurd to you, but that does not mean your view is the correct view nor does it make my view as incorrect.
And I am saying that faith and acts of faith are not the same.
Tong
R1953
Duress has to do with pressure to do the wrong thing, and does not require that someone be "made" to do the wrong thing. Temptation is a form of duress. Therefore, your point has zero validity.
Then you're stuck in a contradiction, brother. You condemn me for saying that faith is a work, and then you admit I'm right that faith is a work.
You can say it all you want. But you continue to contradict yourself. Acts of faith are obviously expressions of faith. You might as well argue that the world is flat.
That's exactly what it says. Atonement brings about forgiveness of sin. You might as well argue that atonement and forgiveness are 2 different words. It doesn't resolve the matter.
This is a Gnostic error. Christianity is predicated on the idea, rejected by Greek philosophy, that God is passable, and can reveal Himself, an infinite Being, in the finite world. The Word become Flesh is the opposite of what you're proposing, and it's coming from a non-Christian point of view.
Faith is a partnership between God and Man. You cannot say that Man does not have the faith, nor can we say that Man's faith emanates solely from him, and not from God, as well. Faith is the combination of God's word and Man's embrace of that word.
Yes, 8.21 is, as the Jews teach, the "evil inclination." It does not mean that all generations are like the generation that perished in the Flood. Jesus himself said that his own generation in Israel was worse than the generation of Sodom. Clearly, some generations and some nations are different than others! Clearly, you're wrong to put all nations in all times in the same category with the generation that perished in the Flood!
There was no pressure when Satan tempted her. What there was, was deception. Why Satan tempted Eve was to make her to do what God does not want them to do, to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Duress really is not a temptation but a forcing of one to do what one does not will to do.
That God’s work is that they believe in Him whom He sent, is not faith Randy. Also I did not condemn you of anything and did not admit that you are right that faith is work. What I did is I disagreed with you that faith is work.
I don’t contradict myself Randy. You just can’t seem to get the point that I am telling you.
How can I put that across to you? Well let me try to illustrate in another way. For example, two guys have knowledge of car mechanics. Their knowledge is with them, having learned and got knowledge from school. One goes out repairing broken car machines for a living while the other went in to put up a grocery store for a living and did not go repairing cars. The former expressed his knowledge and the latter did not, though both have the knowledge of car mechanics. Now, with the one who repaired cars, his knowledge is shown by his works while the latter had no works that shows his knowledge. Now, is the expression of repairing cars the same as the knowledge of car mechanics? Of course not. Take faith in the place of knowledge in the illustration, and perhaps (hopefully) you would get what I meant to say regarding faith and work.
Tong
R1960
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No, atonement does not bring about forgiveness nor does it automatically bring forgiveness. What it does is appease God from having His wrath come down to the sinners. It does not automatically mean that He forgives the sinners. Atonement is one that the sinner does while forgiveness is of God and is according to His grace and mercy. What God wanted for the sinner to do is to repent unto Him, towards faith in Him. And I know you know, what God had done in these last days, some 2000+ years ago, regarding both the matter of atonement and the matter of forgiveness.
Tong
R1961
I don’t know about the Gnostics.
What I said (nothing physical comes forth from God) had nothing to do with the matter that God can take on the flesh, and have Himself somehow seen by man.
On my end, faith that comes forth from God and given to the Christian is not a partnership, but a gracious gift from God to him.
There is “faith” that comes from man. And such faith is weak and does not have the power as that of faith that comes from God.
Clearly, the fallen nature of Adam and his posterity, is not only that of evil inclination, but of intent or purpose.
<<<It does not mean that all generations are like the generation that perished in the Flood.>>>
They may be different in degrees of wickedness, but all generations of fallen Adam have the same fallen nature, that is expressed in Gen.6:5 and Gen.8:21. Remember, in the flood, all were destroyed, even infants and little children, also if there were insane, blind, deaf, mute, poor people then. And God is not unrighteous and unjust in destroying them. And why Noah and the rest of them 8 who were spared, it is only because God willed not to destroy them but gave them grace.
Tong
R1962
Do you even hear yourself? This is a complete and absurd contradiction. Temptation is, on its face, pressure! I'm beginning to think you will argue anything? I was warned about your intransigence, and I'm now starting to believe it. You've made a number of absurd, contradictory statements like this. That kind of thing doesn't deserve discussion. It just confuses others.
As you suggested, I may have to leave you to your own devices. You seem friendly, sincere, and yet incapable of reflecting on the absurdity of your statements. Again, you don't think Satanic temptation was "pressure" on Eve? Do you define pressure only in terms of physics, like weight and force? Or do you admit of things like "emotional pressure?"
No, it is the attempt to force someone to act contrary to what they might otherwise do, in a better state of mind.
There you go again, Tong, with your ridiculous, absurd statements! You're actually claiming, with conviction, that "believing" is not "faith?" Do you also want to convince the world that it's flat?
Then you're disagreeing with Jesus that faith is a work. Oh yea, you want me to believe that "believing" is not "faith?"
I know it sounds like I dislike you, but I'm insulting you with a purpose--to get you to feel a sense of despair about arguing over nonsensical things. If you're going to argue a point, have some rational basis for making the point. Just don't tell me, "Belief is not Faith," and "Love is not Physical," and other absurd points.
All you're doing is distinguishing between education and work. I'm not saying that all work is faith, either. Only faith that works is genuine faith, if the work is spawned by faith in God's word. Education is genuine education, whether a person works or not. It's just that one may not use his education, whereas another does. You've made no point at all.
You seem to be claiming that I'm making an exact equivalent between Faith and Work, and I'm not. I'm just saying that a necessary ingredient in Faith is Work. Unless Work is in the Faith, it isn't genuine Faith. That's what James said, and that's what Jesus was saying, that true works of faith require belief in his word, which translates into obedience to his word.
Some people reduce "belief in Jesus" down to just acceptance of who he is, or acceptance that he did something for us, without us having to do anything. But that's not what "belief in Jesus" means, biblically. True belief in Jesus means that we believe in Jesus' word of command. It means we take seriously his commandments, and obey him in all that we do. True faith in Jesus requires the works of obedience to him. To say otherwise flies in the face of Scriptures.
1 John 1.6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth... 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
That love is not just spiritual, but also physical:
1 John 1.1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
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This is another one of your recent rash of irrational statements. Of course atonement brings about forgiveness of sins!
Jewish atonement prior to Christ did not fully appreciate Christian atonement because it had not yet happened. Only temporary forms of atonement were available in the OT--atonement that could not bring eternal life.
But NT atonement not only brought eternal life, but it also brought forgiveness of sin. To say otherwise flies in the face of what Jesus said, that his body was broken for us, and that his blood was poured out for the remission of sins.
This links atonement in the NT to the forgiveness of sins. God always meant to imply that bringing reconciliation between God and Man required that God physically experience the guilt of sin, and then forgive it. Human redemption required a human atonement, in God's sense of justice.
That's how His word operated. What he said must come through Man had to come through Christ, the God-Man. This form of atonement was in fact the forgiveness of sin from God's point of view.
Of course it does. If love is only spirit, then the physical Christ was not love! This is the contradiction the ancient Gnostics tried to convey, and which was utterly rejected by the Church.
Our relationship with God can be as friends, family, and business partners. Our relationship with God involves all of these, and remains a gracious gift from God.
We partner with God by enjoying our own free will without choosing to live independent of God. We always do what pleases Him, and always consider the word of God in our heart when we act.
Sometimes God commands us, and we obey. But as free children, we are given a lot of latitude to do what we will "in His Spirit." And He guides us in the things that help us understand who He made us to be.
There is indeed a human faith that lacks faith in God. Self-confidence, for example, can be applied in opposition to the will of God.
Someone who lacks a particular ability may insist that he can do what he was not designed to do. That is not faith in God, but rather, faith in one's self. And it is misplaced faith.
The point is, having rebelled against God, via our ancestors Adam and Eve, we now incline towards resisting God's will, even though we can overcome this temptation.
You're mixing up a couple of issues here. One, people were not indiscriminately condemned in the Flood as infants and as ignorant people. It's a general consideration that a civilization saturated with evil practices is not likely to enable innocent people to escape the cultural condition, or the corrupt mind of their generation.
It is not that people just deserve to be condemned as criminals, and God just randomly decides to save some. He used the Flood to erase all but those willing to initiate a plan of redemption, through Noah's descendants. This gave the world an opportunity to escape the judgment of sin, through the testimony of the Flood.
Two, you miss the point that if there are better and worse generations, then that's what I'm arguing--not that all have in common a Sin Nature. Obviously, I agree with that.
My only point was that Noah's generation was described as despicably wicked, whereas other nations are not that. You have not proven that all generations are despicably wicked, like Noah's generation--only that all share a common Sin Nature--something we both agree on.
Yes I hear myself Randy. And You might see a contradiction there, but only because we view and understand differently. You see, the message of the cross, while is true, was viewed by those who are perishing as foolishness, absurd and a contradiction to their wisdom and what is called human reasoning.
<<<Temptation is, on its face, pressure!>>>
Perhaps it is to the weak Christian who wanted to be doing good than doing evil. But not to the unbeliever, who does not know and have no fear of God.
If all sin are done under duress, then it follows that all crimes are done under duress. And that could be in a sense a way out and a defense of the sinner/criminal for each and every sin he does.
<<<Do you define pressure only in terms of physics, like weight and force? Or do you admit of things like "emotional pressure?">>>
Yes, I do admit of things like emotional pressure.
A weak or babe christian, when he sees some money unattended and left sitting on an isolated bench in the park may be tempted to take the money and own it. Is he under duress? A person who is an unbeliever and who have no fear of God, and perhaps even an atheist, when in the same case is tempted to take the money and own it, is he under duress?
Tong
R1964
Yes, I am convinced that faith is not work. One who was not given the faith that comes from God cannot genuinely believe in God.
And no, I am not in the business of convincing people of whether the world is flat or not.
I am disagreeing with your take that Jesus said that faith is a work, and not with Jesus. I can’t disagree with Jesus.Then you're disagreeing with Jesus that faith is a work. Oh yea, you want me to believe that "believing" is not "faith?"
Since you admit that you are insulting me, though with good purpose, I don’t think that is a good thing. We don’t get to rob the rich with the good purpose of feeding the poor.
I have made my arguments, but you just don’t like them and dismiss them as absurd.
<<<All you're doing is distinguishing between education and work.>>>
Not between education and work Randy. But between having knowledge and putting and expressing that knowledge by work. Such knowledge could likewise be expressed not by works but by words, such as do who teach car mechanics (considering the illustration I gave).
<<<You seem to be claiming that I'm making an exact equivalent between Faith and Work, and I'm not. I'm just saying that a necessary ingredient in Faith is Work.>>>
Well you did say that faith is a work.
But now that you seemingly say differently, then I’ll take this one to be your view of faith in relation to work, that you view work as a necessary ingredient of faith.
But, I still do not quite agree and maintain that faith is different from work and that work is not a necessary ingredient of faith as sort of without work, faith would not be faith.
<<<Unless Work is in the Faith, it isn't genuine Faith. That's what James said, and that's what Jesus was saying, that true works of faith require belief in his word, which translates into obedience to his word.>>>
What James is saying is that faith is dead without practical works done coming from it. Dead, not in the sense that it is not there nor that one does not have faith, but in the sense that it is practically unprofitable for one who says he has faith but does not have works.
With regards what Jesus said, I have already told you my take of that passage where Jesus said the work of God is that they believe in Him whom He sent.
<<< True faith in Jesus requires the works of obedience to him.>>>
True faith in Jesus is truly entrusting one’s whole being and life to Him, and takes Him according to the testimony of God, the truth concerning Him.
In my view, works of obedience to Him are not a requirement of faith, but are more of what the faith that one receives from God produces through the faithful.
<<<That love is not just spiritual, but also physical:>>>
As I argued, God is love and has love, and expressed it even before all physical creation. Though I agree that love can be expressed in the physical. But then again, I take love and the expression of love as different things. The former as power and the latter as work.
Tong
R1965
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Irrational it may be to you, but only to you, perhaps because of your view of atonement.
<<<Jewish atonement prior to Christ did not fully appreciate Christian atonement because it had not yet happened. >>>
Jewish atonement was for Israel, and done according to the Law of Moses, and done continuously for as long as Israel sins.
But the atonement done by Jesus Christ was not only for the Jews, but for the world as a whole. It was a once and for all atonement. Now, that is not at all forgiveness, but more of a covering, to appease God and not pour out His wrath because of the sins committed by the Jews and the world, that judgement may not come before the salvation of God comes, that those whom God had given to the Son may be saved first, then comes judgment. You can appreciate what I say here if you read about the generation of Israel whom God took out of Egypt, when God was about to pour His wrath upon them all when they sinned in Sinai, and Moses made atonement for them by pleading with God to not destroy them and hold His wrath upon them, even offering that God blot him out from His book.
Tong
R1966
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As I said, I don’t know about the gnostics.
<<<There is indeed a human faith that lacks faith in God.>>>
??? Sounds contradictory to me.
When I say “faith” that comes from man, I am not really talking about faith in oneself but of a faith coming from man in contrast to faith that comes from God. Before we have this faith that comes from God, we have faith, faith that comes from ourselves. We have power to believe in many things like in ourselves, our family, in relatives and friends, and so on. But such faith is weak and for it does not have the power to genuinely believe in the invisible God.
Please look again, for I am pretty sure you had in the past, Gen.6:5 and 8:21. Check out the original Hebrew text and take a closer look at the Hebrew texts concerning the heart of man. I am quite sure you will find out that it speaks of intent or purpose and not mere inclination.
But of course, we must not take that to the Christian, for the Christian was born again, now with a new heart.
<<<You're mixing up a couple of issues here. One, people were not indiscriminately condemned in the Flood as infants and as ignorant people. It's a general consideration that a civilization saturated with evil practices is not likely to enable innocent people to escape the cultural condition, or the corrupt mind of their generation.>>>
That’s your view. But take a look once again in these statements of God Himself concerning man.
Genesis 6:5Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
Such statements concerning man are general and collective, without individual exception. If at all there was exception, He could have not destroyed what you seem to have reason to believe, should not have been condemned as wicked, and spared them like Noah.
<<<Two, you miss the point that if there are better and worse generations, then that's what I'm arguing--not that all have in common a Sin Nature. Obviously, I agree with that.>>>
I have already agreed that generations differ in degree of wickedness and so was not arguing against that. What I am arguing for is about the fallen nature of man, as told by God Himself in Gen.6:5 and Gen.8:21, that every intents of his heart is only evil, even from his youth, and that goes for all man of the posterity of the first Adam, before or after the flood at Noah’s time. And since you agree with that, then there is no more issue about that.
<<<My only point was that Noah's generation was described as despicably wicked, whereas other nations are not that. >>>
What other nations?
<<<You have not proven that all generations are despicably wicked, like Noah's generation>>>
I don’t have anything to prove about that. For I am not arguing that all generations are despicably wicked.
But regarding that, what I can say is that, since the posterity of Noah are no different from those destroyed in the flood as having a heart whose every intent is only evil, I could only but reasonably speculate that they too had turned out to be wicked. Despicably wicked? Likely so. But God will not destroy mankind as He did, even if they turned out to be despicably wicked, for God who knows all things past present and future, made a covenant with Noah that He will never again destroy mankind as He just did at Noah’s time with the great flood. So I understand why such did not happen again.
Tong
R1967
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