False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[The Light]

Ah, the King James. It's not "bad," or "wrong," of course, but the antiquated language makes it a little harder for our modern ears to understand in places. If you would, consider the ESV or the NASB, which translate this verse respectively as follows:

• "But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
• "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

If we were to think of this 'escape' as a removal, then Jesus, in Luke 21, would seem to be saying that we somehow remove ourselves (rather than Him removing us in a "rapture"), which is a ridiculous thought. I would say that what Jesus says here is along the same lines as what Paul says (after Jesus's crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, of course) in Ephesians 6:11-18 ~

• "But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
• "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Escaping via the rapture and standing before the throne of God.

Just like the 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth.......raptured...........and standing before the throne.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Just like those that came out of great tribulation ARE BEFORE THE THRONE.

Rev 7
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Just like the great multitude is standing before the throne

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

These event of standing before throne occur after a rapture.

 

[The Light]

Wrong for the same exact reasons why they didn't happen during the OD. The seals are information about future events just as the things Jesus said on the mount were.

The seals happen during the tribulation. The trumpets happen during the wrath of God.

As I have said before, your beliefs are unscriptural as you have the Church going through the wrath of God and we are not appointed to wrath. Simple

 

[The Light]

Paul spoke of one rapture not two. No one is raptured to heaven, and the one rapture happens at the last trump, when the GT is over.

Easily proven wrong.

Paul talks of the dead rising first and the alive remain which is the grain harvest. Then he talks of the dead and alive being changed at the same time, in the twinkling of an eye which is in the fruit harvest.

Jesus talks of two comings, one as the days of Noah and one as the days of Lot.

I could post much more, but it is a waste of time.

 

[PinSeeker]

• "But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
• "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Escaping via the rapture and standing before the throne of God.

Just like the 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth.......raptured...........and standing before the throne.

Yes, let's talk about that last clause, "...to stand before the Son of Man."

In short, everyone ~ everyone ~ will be before Christ when He returns and takes His seat of judgment at the end of this age... after the close of this age. Again, "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment," as Jesus says in John 5:28-29. Everyone will be judged according to what he or she has done, as Paul says in Romans 2:6-8... "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." But only the former, those who receive eternal life, will stand in the judgment; the latter group will not. I point out Psalm 1 again: "the wicked will not stand in the judgment." This "standing," The Light, is not to be woodenly understood as merely standing up on one's legs and feet, but rather being judged righteous in Christ and "passing the test," as it were, and entering into the New Heaven and New Earth, into the promised Rest. The "falling," on the other hand, is being judged unrighteous, not in Christ but in himself or herself, and therefore being exposed as unrighteous and thus ruined and subsequently entering into judgment.

And again, the 144,000 ~ ten thousand from each of the tribes of God's Israel ~ is symbolic of two things:

• the true Jewish heritage ~ again, "inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit; (their) praise is not from man but from God" ~ and thus members of God's Israel, His household in its completeness (Revelation 7:1-8; the numbers 10, 1000, and 12 denote completeness all through God's Word)
• the unknowable (to us) number of God's people, which will be an innumerable multitude ~ "as the stars of heaven," and "as the grains of sand on the seashore," hailing from every tongue, tribe, and nation (the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17)

Together, these are the redeemed ~ as Isaiah says, the "redeemed" are all the "ransomed of the LORD" who "shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away" (Isaiah 35:9-10) ~ God's elect (Romans 9-11).​

Just like those that came out of great tribulation ARE BEFORE THE THRONE.

Rev 7
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Just like the great multitude is standing before the throne

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; These event of standing before throne occur after a rapture.

Again, everyone ~ everyone ~ will be before Christ when He returns and takes His seat of judgment at the end of this age. And many will "stand" ~ be judged righteous, because they are in Christ; these are the ones on Christ's right in Matthew 25, who "are blessed by (His) Father (and) inherit the kingdom prepared for (them) from the foundation of the world (and enter) into eternal life." But many will not be judged righteous, but rather otherwise; these are the ones on His left in Matthew 25, who "will go away into eternal punishment."

There is no "rapture," much less two. See above.

Grace and peace to you, TL.

 

[Douggg]

You don't understand what you are reading Doug. You are trying separate this event this as a separate event that happens in Rev 15. This event happens when Jesus comes to earth with the armies of heaven.

Maybe this will help.

Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This event is part of the wrath of God. In other words, this event happens during the trumpets. Here is a different view in the vials

Revelation 16
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

You are still not getting it.

Jerusalem is the city in Israel which Jesus returns to. Revelation 19:21 Jesus destroys those armies which have surrounded and holding half of the city of Jerusalem as hostages.

At the same time that Jesus destroys those armies, the angel with the sickle destroys the rest of the kings of the earth armies gathered in the land of Israel to make war on Jesus.

 

[Davidpt]

Many Prophesies tell us the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, will be a literal one 24 hour day event.

As if that makes sense when we factor in the last 7 vials of wrath, that somehow all of those events will be fulfilled within a 24 hour period or less.

Revelation 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.


This vial has it being very bright and lit up outside since that's what the sun typically does, shines light upon the earth.

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

This vial has it being pitch black at the time, the opposite of what is depicted per the 4th angel.


Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


And as to this vial, as if it makes sense that verse 14 is only involving 24 hours or less. Some of what you propose is just as absurd as what Amils typically propose, that most of these events involving the end of this age and the 2nd coming, they are all fulfilled within a single 24 hour day or less.

Clearly, the last 7 vials of wrath involve the day of the Lord, Clearly, the last 7 vials of wrath can't be fulfilled in a single day or less. I don't agree with @Douggg, either. It's equally preposterous, though the day of the Lord obviously involves more than a single day, that it is never ending on top of that. Obviously, the day of the Lord can involve more than a single day without it having to be never ending, though.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You are still not getting it.

Wrong Douggg. You are the one who does not get it.

Douuug:

Jerusalem is the city in Israel which Jesus returns to. Revelation 19:21 Jesus destroys those armies which have surrounded and holding half of the city of Jerusalem as hostages.

At the same time that Jesus destroys those armies, the angel with the sickle destroys the rest of the kings of the earth armies gathered in the land of Israel to make war on Jesus.

Time out... You got so many wrong interpretations over there. For example:
Rev 14:18-20
(18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
(19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
(20) And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Do you even know what power over fire refers to?
Do you even know what does a sharp sickle represent?
Do you know what is the clusters of the vine of the earth represents?
Do you know what is the great winepress of the wrath of God?
Do you know what city the winepress is found at?
Do you know what blood of the winepress really is?
Why do you think God said the blood will reach up to horse bridles? What does the horse bridles signifies in Scirpture?
Do you know what is spiritual significaiton of 1,600 furlongs is?

You can't just make claims about physical events, cities, human blood or horse bridles and interpret them foolishly. Instead, you need to search for answers within the rest of the Scriptures to understand what God is talking about. It's is called SPIRITUAL DISCERNED! Hello Davy??

 

[The Light]

You are still not getting it.

Jerusalem is the city in Israel which Jesus returns to. Revelation 19:21 Jesus destroys those armies which have surrounded and holding half of the city of Jerusalem as hostages.

At the same time that Jesus destroys those armies, the angel with the sickle destroys the rest of the kings of the earth armies gathered in the land of Israel to make war on Jesus.


View attachment 44880

You must have missed this scripture.

Revelation 19
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[The Light]

And again, the 144,000 ~ ten thousand from each of the tribes of God's Israel ~ is symbolic of two things:

• the true Jewish heritage ~ again, "inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit; (their) praise is not from man but from God" ~ and thus members of God's Israel, His household in its completeness (Revelation 7:1-8; the numbers 10, 1000, and 12 denote completeness all through God's Word)
• the unknowable (to us) number of God's people, which will be an innumerable multitude ~ "as the stars of heaven," and "as the grains of sand on the seashore," hailing from every tongue, tribe, and nation (the "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-17)

Together, these are the redeemed ~ as Isaiah says, the "redeemed" are all the "ransomed of the LORD" who "shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away" (Isaiah 35:9-10) ~ God's elect (Romans 9-11).​

Or we can except the written Word of God and understand that they are 144,000 which is 12,000 from each tribe. There is no need to dream things up when the answer is already given.

Again, everyone ~ everyone ~ will be before Christ when He returns and takes His seat of judgment at the end of this age. And many will "stand" ~ be judged righteous, because they are in Christ; these are the ones on Christ's right in Matthew 25, who "are blessed by (His) Father (and) inherit the kingdom prepared for (them) from the foundation of the world (and enter) into eternal life." But many will not be judged righteous, but rather otherwise; these are the ones on His left in Matthew 25, who "will go away into eternal punishment."

There is no "rapture," much less two. See above.

Grace and peace to you, TL.

It simply comes to accepting what is written or not and coming up with our own ideas. As always I will go with the written Word of God.

Here are the 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth. They are raptured from the earth and are standing before the throne of God.

The reason most of you don't believe in a pre trib rapture is because you don't accept the written Word of God. As soon as you start dreaming up or listening to others that have dreamed up what God means, you will never understand. God means what He says.

 

[ewq1938]

You are still not getting it.

Jerusalem is the city in Israel which Jesus returns to. Revelation 19:21 Jesus destroys those armies which have surrounded and holding half of the city of Jerusalem as hostages.

Rev 19 takes place 66 miles from Jerusalem, a city that had been ruled by the AC for the previous 42 months. No one is "surrounding" the city at that time because it was a city ruled by and owned by the AC for years.

 

[ewq1938]

Here are the 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth. They are raptured from the earth and are standing before the throne of God.

The passage says they are on a mountain, and that mountain is on the Earth near Jerusalem. Being redeemed from the Earth does not mean to be removed from the Earth, proven by being on an Earthly mountain. There are no mountains in heaven because heaven is not a planet made of dirt and rocks and volcanic activity.

 

[Douggg]

You must have missed this scripture.

Revelation 19
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

No, I did not miss that verse. It goes with this verse in Zechariah 14. All nations, i.e. the kings of the earth, will bring their armies into Israel, Armageddon. From there, they will move part of their armies down to and take half of Jerusalem as hostages. Jesus will destroy those armies from all nations that come against Jerusalem. And later during the 1000 year millennium, Jesus will rule the nations will a rod of iron,

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 19 takes place 66 miles from Jerusalem, a city that had been ruled by the AC for the previous 42 months. No one is "surrounding" the city at that time because it was a city ruled by and owned by the AC for years.

You don't understand what the purpose of the armies of the kings of the earth from all nations coming against Jerusalem. It is not to attack the beast-king, but to be lead by him in their strategy to keep Jesus from executing judgment on them.

They take half of the Jews there as hostages, after raping and pillaging.

Revelation 19 takes place in Jerusalem, with the temple mount as where the beast-king, the false prophet, and Satan will meet their end.

 

[ewq1938]

You don't understand what the purpose of the armies of the kings of the earth from all nations coming against Jerusalem.

There is no attack on Jerusalem in Rev 19 because Jerusalem already belonged to teh beast for the previous 42 months. The attack on Jerusalem is found in Rev 20 not Rev 19.

Revelation 19 takes place in Jerusalem.

No, it takes place at Armageddon which is 66 miles away from Jerusalem.

 

[PinSeeker]

Or we can except the written Word of God and understand that they are 144,000 which is 12,000 from each tribe. There is no need to dream things up...

I agree. It's interesting that you use the word 'dream' here...

It simply comes to accepting what is written or not and coming up with our own ideas. As always I will go with the written Word of God.

Agree with this, too...

Here are the 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth. They are raptured from the earth and are standing before the throne of God.

Yes, I know your thoughts on the matter.

The reason most of you don't believe in a pre trib rapture...

Well, we (although I'm not too sure who all here would be included in this "we") don't accept the concept of a "pre trib rapture"...

...is because...

...because it's silly... ...and not supported by God's Word. Not in that order, but yeah. But you think otherwise, and that's... okay.

you don't accept the written Word of God.

I absolutely do. No need to disparage, The Light. You don't accept ~ at least on this particular subject ~ my understanding of the written Word of God, and, likewise, I do not accept yours. And, like I said, that's okay.

As soon as you start dreaming up or listening to others that have dreamed up what God means, you will never understand.

Well, I'm with you on the "dreaming up" thing; the ironic thing here is that Thomas Nelson Darby did that very thing; the concept of the "Rapture" has its roots in the Dispensationalist teachings of Darby, a prominent Christian preacher in the 19th century. But as for understanding, one will not continue to misunderstand if the Holy Spirit intercedes.

God means what He says.

Yes, absolutely. He said what He meant, and He meant what He said. Absolutely.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

The passage says they are on a mountain, and that mountain is on the Earth near Jerusalem. Being redeemed from the Earth does not mean to be removed from the Earth, proven by being on an Earthly mountain. There are no mountains in heaven because heaven is not a planet made of dirt and rocks and volcanic activity.

The mountain is on earth. Simple.

The are redeemed FROM THE EARTH. Simple

They are before the throne. The throne is in heaven. Simple

I'm not sure why you want to complicate everything when it is so simple.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[The Light]

Well, I'm with you on the "dreaming up" thing; the ironic thing here is that Thomas Nelson Darby did that very thing; the concept of the "Rapture" has its roots in the Dispensationalist teachings of Darby, a prominent Christian preacher in the 19th century.

When I see comments like this, I know you haven't taken the time to do any RE-search. You are taking other people's word for this nonsense.

Instead, you listen to those that did not believe the Word of God, that God would restore Israel as a nation. However, Darby was correct and Israel was restored as a nation............as we have a MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY.

Those that think that the Church has replaced Israel were incorrect. They have led so many astray from the truth. The unbelievable part is that people are still falling for it despite the nation of Israel being reborn.

Grace and peace to you.

Thank you, brother. And to you.

 

[ewq1938]

The mountain is on earth. Simple.

The are redeemed FROM THE EARTH. Simple

They are before the throne. The throne is in heaven. Simple

I'm not sure why you want to complicate everything when it is so simple.

If it's so simple, why did you get it all wrong? It is the harpers that sing and play and are in heaven before the throne. It is the 144k on Earth who are learning the song. Do you think people learning a song can at the same time sing it?

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[Douggg]

There is no attack on Jerusalem in Rev 19 because Jerusalem already belonged to teh beast for the previous 42 months. The attack on Jerusalem is found in Rev 20 not Rev 19.

The beast-king will occupy Jerusalem for those 42 months and during that time persecutes the Jewish population there. Many Jews will be martyred for not worshiping the beast nor his image. The wrath of the Lamb is because of the saints in Revelation 6 the fifth seal martyred during the time of the beast-king.

No, it takes place at Armageddon which is 66 miles away from Jerusalem.

I don't think you grasp the size of the armies that will gather at Armageddon, nor the sequence of events. Jesus in Zechariah 14 returns to Jerusalem, the Mount of Olives, not Armageddon 66 miles away.

Zechariah 14 is not the post millennium Revelation 20:8-9 event because Zechariah 14 is followed by worship of Jesus and observances of he feast of tabernacles on this present earth.

Differently Revelation 20:8-9 is followed by the destruction of this present earth, and the Great White Throne Judgement.

 

[The Light]

If it's so simple, why did you get it all wrong? It is the harpers that sing and play and are in heaven before the throne. It is the 144k on Earth who are learning the song. Do you think people learning a song can at the same time sing it?

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

You want to leave that 144,000 on that mountain top, but the Word says that they are first fruits..............................

which were redeemed from the earth. Simple