Fleeing Into The Wilderness, Its True Meaning

[veteran]

There are 2 verses in Revelation 12 about the symbolic woman there fleeing into the wilderness. One must understand the 2nd example to know what it's really about. Some here have wrongly been taught to try and use that fleeing idea to push the false Pre-Trib secret Rapture of men's doctrines. They will not stop abusing God's Word away from how it is actually written, so their error is no different on this concept in Rev.12.

Rev 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This casting out has not happenned yet. I know many have been taught it was history when Satan first rebelled against God, because they think it's tied to the verses back at Rev.12:3-4 which is... about Satan's original fall. This casting out here is not, because of the subject verses that follow included with it.

Per Daniel 12:1, this war in Heaven is when the Archangel Michael stands up (i.e., makes a stand per the Hebrew). According to Dan.12:1 the event that follows Michael doing that is a time of trouble that has never been the likes on earth, and shall never be again. Our Lord Jesus repeated that idea in Matt.24 about the "great tribulation" He taught there.

So this event of Satan and his angels being cast out of the heavenly to this earth by Michael is what sets the start of that tribulation timing.


Rev.12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Ask yourself here, back when Satan originally rebelled against God and was cast down, was "the power of Christ" established on earth yet? No, for our Lord Jesus had not been born yet to die on the cross back then. Also, the brethren weren't around then either in order to overcome Satan by the Blood of The Lamb Jesus Christ. You should well know that idea of "the blood of the Lamb" means our Lord Jesus had already died on the cross, which makes it plain this casting down to the earth is still future to us even.

On the 5th Seal in Rev.6 we're given another picture of the saints that are to be beheaded for the witness of Jesus Christ prior to the end of this world. That's tied to these overcomers here.


Rev.12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Once again, the symbolic woman (Israel) did not exist yet at Satan's original fall. The "short time" he will have at this point is the tribulation timing. When this speaks of the devil is come down unto you, it is about Satan and his host of angels being cast out... of the heavenly dimension down to this earth in OUR dimension. This is what will cause the events of Apostle Paul's "strong delusion" warning of 2 Thess.2.


14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The symbolic woman (Israel) is given to fly into the wilderness for a period of 3.5 years ("time, times, and half a time"). That's about a time Daniel was given to warn us about for the end of this world. But note this is in order to flee from what? From the face of the serpent. Well, who were we told back in the 7th verse who that 'serpent' is? It's just another one of Satan's many titles.

Because this verse includes the idea of 'flying', the Pre-Trib Rapture School tries to treat it as part of their escape the trib system of theories. It is NOT... about a literal flying, for that idea here is a symbolic metaphor only. There is NO literal physical fleeing in this at all. The reason many miss this point is because they don't continue to read the next verses...


15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Here is why the symbolic woman flies into the wilderness for 3.5 years. It's to be protected from what that "serpent" (Satan) spews out of his mouth. First of all, what comes out of one's mouth??? WORDS do. That... is what the symbolic woman is given to fly from, words out of Satan's mouth that act "water as a flood". Not literal water, but lies so constant and deceiving that our Lord Jesus compares it to a literal flood of waters.

What specific lie did our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warn us about for the very end of this world for the tribulation timing? We are given a specific warning about the coming of a pseudo-Christ, the "another Jesus" of 2 Cor.11, the false Christ of Matt.24:23-26, the son of perdition of 2 Thess.2:3-4 that's to sit in a temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, and exalt himself over all that is worshipped, or even called... God.

Are you beginning to get a better picture of what Satan's casting down to the earth for the tribulation is going to be about? You should if you understand all those Scripture warnings for the end.

So here's the symbolic woman, and she's under attack by the waters as a flood coming out of the serpent's mouth. In other words, the symbolic woman is STILL here, on the earth. The flying into the wilderness idea is a symbol for her NOT being deceived by Satan's flood. It is not a physical fleeing at all.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Now if the symbolic woman had actually physically fled already, then how is it the woman even needs this help here? This verse is another proof that the woman has NOT... physically fled anywhere. The protection is against Satan's lies that come out of his MOUTH. It is a spiritual protection against being deceived by him and his angels once they are cast out of Heaven to this earth in our direct presence.


17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

Once that old serpent Satan realizes his lies of deception won't take upon the woman, he then goes after God's elect (the woman) to destroy with war. That is the Armageddon point our Lord Jesus taught us in Rev.16. That is when Satan and his host army on earth will try to attack God's people on the very last day of this present world.

Notice this "remnant" keeps God's commandments, AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Does that mean Christ's Church? YES! DEFINITELY! The idea of a remnant there simply means the only ones left not deceived in that time that still remain Faithful waiting on Christ Jesus' coming. It's about those who refuse to bow to the coming Antichrist/pseudo-messiah in false worship thinking he is The Christ like we were warned.

Now if... you understand this so far, you know what the flying into the wilderness is really about, i.e., spiritual protection away the deception out of Satan's mouth. So... if that's what this Rev.12:14 fleeing is really about, what do you think the previous example in Rev.12:6 is about???
Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(KJV)

That Rev.12:6 verse is given PRIOR to the verse about Satan and his angels being cast down to this earth, so it is PRIOR to the war in Heaven when Satan is cast to this earth. And if that old serpent isn't cast down yet to push his lies as waters of a flood out of his mouth, then what's this prior fleeing of the woman about?

We were supposed to have understood our Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings about the coming of this false one before we got here, and also the previous Revelation chapters before this one too. Do we now just forget all that? What was God's sealing of His servants about per the Rev.7 chapter, and the comparison of those sealed with God's seal versus Satan's mark in the Rev.9 chapter? God's sealing of His is HOW we don't become deceived by the coming of Satan with his angels BEFORE... they even get here for the end. Satan's servants prepare the 'way' for Satan's arrival, pushing lies even before he is cast down to this earth. So if the Rev.12:14 fleeing is about spiritual protection against the strong delusion, then what do you think this Rev.12:6 fleeing is about?

It's about being sealed by our Lord Jesus against the coming strong delusion that's to try the whole world. And boy are Satan's servants here on earth today really pushing his deceptions already (even on Christian Forums like this one), as most of God's people don't even know that the coming Antichrist will be Satan himself coming to play God in Jerusalem, and try to trick you into bowing in false worship to Him, with thinking he is The LORD having returned. But wheresoever the dead carcase is, that's where those fake eagles will be gathered together (Matt.24:28; Luke 17). That's about the spiritually dead that will be deceived by Satan's lies, i.e. Paul's strong delusion warning.

If you well know all this, then you are already... in that wilderness of Rev.12:6 and under Christ's protection against being deceived, having been sealed with His seal. If not... then you have some hard studying to do in His Word after... you cut yourself off from men's doctrines of the day.



So why... did our Lord Jesus use this waters as a flood type metaphor for the lies of deception that comes out of that serpent's mouth (i.e., Satan on earth in our near future)?

Firstly, the idea was used as a symbolic metaphor of the enemy coming upon Israel to destroy back in the Old Testament prophets, like Isaiah 8 and Isaiah 28 and Isaiah 59.

Secondly, it's a link back to the time of the flood in Noah's days, that flood being used as a symbol only for Satan's attack in the last days upon God's people. Per Genesis, the flood waters of Noah's time were at their height upon the earth for a period of 150 days. Per old Hebrew reckoning, 150 days equals a five month period. So our Lord Jesus gave us a clue as to how long the deception of waters as a flood out of Satan's mouth is to work upon the earth for the last days.

Indeed, our Lord Jesus told us all things, if we would only listen to Him.

 

[John S]

If Satan were still in Heaven, then he wouldn't have been in the Garden of Eden to trick Adam and Eve. He would not have been free to tempt Jesus in the desert.
I'm Sorry - but this statement is incorrect.

Several years ago, I decided to look up the word "wilderness" in the dictionary. The first few definitions were the typical definitions of places. It was the last definition that caught my eye
"A multitudinous and confusing collection".
I think that this is the proper definition of this term. The woman is NOT hidden in a place but in plain sight because she is not known, except to God.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

read the book of Job .... Satan can come before God and he can roam the earth.





.

 

[Rex]

read the book of Job .... Satan can come before God and he can roam the earth.





.

And the cross has had no effect on this privilege?

John 12:31

Ask yourself here, back when Satan originally rebelled against God and was cast down, was "the power of Christ" established on earth yet? No, for our Lord Jesus had not been born yet to die on the cross back then. Also, the brethren weren't around then either in order to overcome Satan by the Blood of The Lamb Jesus Christ. You should well know that idea of "the blood of the Lamb" means our Lord Jesus had already died on the cross, which makes it plain this casting down to the earth is still future to us even.

John 12:31 KJV

Obviously he wasn't driven out of the world but I imagine this has something to do with it.

In fact, Luke 10 makes the timing abundantly clear:

17. The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18. He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
20. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” (Luke 10:17-20).

To summarize, Satan started to be defeated with the preaching of the Gospel, and was fully defeated at the cross of Calvary, even though he may -still be referred to as 'the ruler of this world,' or even 'the god of this world' (NIV: 'the god of this age')

Paul in 2 Corinthians 4:4, during the period in which the nations continue in disarray, and prior to the return of Christ in fully visible power and glory.

He "can" no longer accuses the brethren, those in Christ, other wise the power of the cross has no meaning concerning the saved.

In short If he's still going before God and accusing the saved Jesus failed. Romans 8:1
John 12:31
Driven out
Rev 12:7-8

 

[veteran]

In the following, our Lord Jesus is getting ready to be delivered up to be crucified, and He is preparing His disciples for it. Note the 30th verse especially.

John 14:28-30
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
(KJV)

In the above, our Lord Jesus was not crucified yet. When He spoke of His going to The Father, that was His ascension to Heaven per Acts 1 to the right hand of The Father's Throne, where He awaits the time of His return. The "Hereafter I will not talk much with you..." was for after He went to The Father. And then He warns us about the "prince of this world cometh" after that. That is the same idea as saying, the Antichrist is coming after I've gone to The Father. This is one of the several Scripture warnings about the coming of Satan as a final Antichrist for the very end of this world prior to Christ's return.

Per the Book of Job, Satan appeared before God's Throne in the Heavenly, even after he had already rebelled and originally cast down. That is how he still stands as the accuser of our brethren in the Heavenly still right now.

So what's the difference with the Rev.12:7-17 Scripture casting to the earth?

In the John 14:30 verse, our Lord Jesus is actually giving us a 'warning'... about Satan's coming to earth, after... Christ's crucifixion. So he definitely was not locked in his pit prison at Christ's death on the cross. We even know per Rev.20 that Satan won't be 'bound' until Christ Jesus returns and starts His "thousand years" reign.

Rev.12:8 gives us the clear picture, it's just that many are so used to listening to men's doctrines about this matter they have a difficult time grasping the idea in God's Word that there's only 2 different dimensions of existence, this earthly, and the heavenly.

Since Rev.12:8 reveals at that point there will be no more place found for Satan in Heaven, that means he is going to be cast out of the Heavenly dimension de facto into our earthly dimension.

In other words, we will physically see him and his angels. But the problem is, Satan has the image of man just like us, as do his angels. So how can we recognize Satan when he comes here in our earthly dimension? By listening to God in His Word, for He revealed it to us if we'd only listen to Him and believe.

If Satan were still in Heaven, then he wouldn't have been in the Garden of Eden to trick Adam and Eve. He would not have been free to tempt Jesus in the desert.
I'm Sorry - but this statement is incorrect.

Several years ago, I decided to look up the word "wilderness" in the dictionary. The first few definitions were the typical definitions of places. It was the last definition that caught my eye
"A multitudinous and confusing collection".
I think that this is the proper definition of this term. The woman is NOT hidden in a place but in plain sight because she is not known, except to God.

The "wilderness" idea of Rev.12:14 is in the sense of a 'solitary' place, just as the Greek word was rendered in Mark 1:35 (KJV) when our Lord Jesus went to pray.

Moreover, we cannot separate that period in Rev.12:14 from the "time, times, and an half" in the Book of Daniel.

Dan 12:7
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
(KJV)

If the power of the holy people is to be scattered in that time by the false one, that means they do not physically flee anywhere, only that their power is subdued for that period of a time, times, and an half (or 1260 days, or 42 months, or 3.5 years).

 

[iamlamad]

There are 2 verses in Revelation 12 about the symbolic woman there fleeing into the wilderness. One must understand the 2nd example to know what it's really about. Some here have wrongly been taught to try and use that fleeing idea to push the false Pre-Trib secret Rapture of men's doctrines. They will not stop abusing God's Word away from how it is actually written, so their error is no different on this concept in Rev.12.

Rev 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This casting out has not happenned yet. I know many have been taught it was history when Satan first rebelled against God, because they think it's tied to the verses back at Rev.12:3-4 which is... about Satan's original fall. This casting out here is not, because of the subject verses that follow included with it.

Per Daniel 12:1, this war in Heaven is when the Archangel Michael stands up (i.e., makes a stand per the Hebrew). According to Dan.12:1 the event that follows Michael doing that is a time of trouble that has never been the likes on earth, and shall never be again. Our Lord Jesus repeated that idea in Matt.24 about the "great tribulation" He taught there.

So this event of Satan and his angels being cast out of the heavenly to this earth by Michael is what sets the start of that tribulation timing.


Rev.12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Ask yourself here, back when Satan originally rebelled against God and was cast down, was "the power of Christ" established on earth yet? No, for our Lord Jesus had not been born yet to die on the cross back then. Also, the brethren weren't around then either in order to overcome Satan by the Blood of The Lamb Jesus Christ. You should well know that idea of "the blood of the Lamb" means our Lord Jesus had already died on the cross, which makes it plain this casting down to the earth is still future to us even.

On the 5th Seal in Rev.6 we're given another picture of the saints that are to be beheaded for the witness of Jesus Christ prior to the end of this world. That's tied to these overcomers here.


Rev.12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Once again, the symbolic woman (Israel) did not exist yet at Satan's original fall. The "short time" he will have at this point is the tribulation timing. When this speaks of the devil is come down unto you, it is about Satan and his host of angels being cast out... of the heavenly dimension down to this earth in OUR dimension. This is what will cause the events of Apostle Paul's "strong delusion" warning of 2 Thess.2.


14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The symbolic woman (Israel) is given to fly into the wilderness for a period of 3.5 years ("time, times, and half a time"). That's about a time Daniel was given to warn us about for the end of this world. But note this is in order to flee from what? From the face of the serpent. Well, who were we told back in the 7th verse who that 'serpent' is? It's just another one of Satan's many titles.

Because this verse includes the idea of 'flying', the Pre-Trib Rapture School tries to treat it as part of their escape the trib system of theories. It is NOT... about a literal flying, for that idea here is a symbolic metaphor only. There is NO literal physical fleeing in this at all. The reason many miss this point is because they don't continue to read the next verses...


15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Here is why the symbolic woman flies into the wilderness for 3.5 years. It's to be protected from what that "serpent" (Satan) spews out of his mouth. First of all, what comes out of one's mouth??? WORDS do. That... is what the symbolic woman is given to fly from, words out of Satan's mouth that act "water as a flood". Not literal water, but lies so constant and deceiving that our Lord Jesus compares it to a literal flood of waters.

What specific lie did our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warn us about for the very end of this world for the tribulation timing? We are given a specific warning about the coming of a pseudo-Christ, the "another Jesus" of 2 Cor.11, the false Christ of Matt.24:23-26, the son of perdition of 2 Thess.2:3-4 that's to sit in a temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, and exalt himself over all that is worshipped, or even called... God.

Are you beginning to get a better picture of what Satan's casting down to the earth for the tribulation is going to be about? You should if you understand all those Scripture warnings for the end.

So here's the symbolic woman, and she's under attack by the waters as a flood coming out of the serpent's mouth. In other words, the symbolic woman is STILL here, on the earth. The flying into the wilderness idea is a symbol for her NOT being deceived by Satan's flood. It is not a physical fleeing at all.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Now if the symbolic woman had actually physically fled already, then how is it the woman even needs this help here? This verse is another proof that the woman has NOT... physically fled anywhere. The protection is against Satan's lies that come out of his MOUTH. It is a spiritual protection against being deceived by him and his angels once they are cast out of Heaven to this earth in our direct presence.


17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

Once that old serpent Satan realizes his lies of deception won't take upon the woman, he then goes after God's elect (the woman) to destroy with war. That is the Armageddon point our Lord Jesus taught us in Rev.16. That is when Satan and his host army on earth will try to attack God's people on the very last day of this present world.

Notice this "remnant" keeps God's commandments, AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Does that mean Christ's Church? YES! DEFINITELY! The idea of a remnant there simply means the only ones left not deceived in that time that still remain Faithful waiting on Christ Jesus' coming. It's about those who refuse to bow to the coming Antichrist/pseudo-messiah in false worship thinking he is The Christ like we were warned.

Now if... you understand this so far, you know what the flying into the wilderness is really about, i.e., spiritual protection away the deception out of Satan's mouth. So... if that's what this Rev.12:14 fleeing is really about, what do you think the previous example in Rev.12:6 is about???
Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(KJV)

That Rev.12:6 verse is given PRIOR to the verse about Satan and his angels being cast down to this earth, so it is PRIOR to the war in Heaven when Satan is cast to this earth. And if that old serpent isn't cast down yet to push his lies as waters of a flood out of his mouth, then what's this prior fleeing of the woman about?

We were supposed to have understood our Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings about the coming of this false one before we got here, and also the previous Revelation chapters before this one too. Do we now just forget all that? What was God's sealing of His servants about per the Rev.7 chapter, and the comparison of those sealed with God's seal versus Satan's mark in the Rev.9 chapter? God's sealing of His is HOW we don't become deceived by the coming of Satan with his angels BEFORE... they even get here for the end. Satan's servants prepare the 'way' for Satan's arrival, pushing lies even before he is cast down to this earth. So if the Rev.12:14 fleeing is about spiritual protection against the strong delusion, then what do you think this Rev.12:6 fleeing is about?

It's about being sealed by our Lord Jesus against the coming strong delusion that's to try the whole world. And boy are Satan's servants here on earth today really pushing his deceptions already (even on Christian Forums like this one), as most of God's people don't even know that the coming Antichrist will be Satan himself coming to play God in Jerusalem, and try to trick you into bowing in false worship to Him, with thinking he is The LORD having returned. But wheresoever the dead carcase is, that's where those fake eagles will be gathered together (Matt.24:28; Luke 17). That's about the spiritually dead that will be deceived by Satan's lies, i.e. Paul's strong delusion warning.

If you well know all this, then you are already... in that wilderness of Rev.12:6 and under Christ's protection against being deceived, having been sealed with His seal. If not... then you have some hard studying to do in His Word after... you cut yourself off from men's doctrines of the day.



So why... did our Lord Jesus use this waters as a flood type metaphor for the lies of deception that comes out of that serpent's mouth (i.e., Satan on earth in our near future)?

Firstly, the idea was used as a symbolic metaphor of the enemy coming upon Israel to destroy back in the Old Testament prophets, like Isaiah 8 and Isaiah 28 and Isaiah 59.

Secondly, it's a link back to the time of the flood in Noah's days, that flood being used as a symbol only for Satan's attack in the last days upon God's people. Per Genesis, the flood waters of Noah's time were at their height upon the earth for a period of 150 days. Per old Hebrew reckoning, 150 days equals a five month period. So our Lord Jesus gave us a clue as to how long the deception of waters as a flood out of Satan's mouth is to work upon the earth for the last days.

Indeed, our Lord Jesus told us all things, if we would only listen to Him.

Veteran, you are correct on the timing of the war in heaven. The signal for Michael to go after the Dragon will be the 7th trumpet that divides the week. The war then will immediately follow the 7th trumpet.

On the 5th Seal in Rev.6 we're given another picture of the saints that are to be beheaded for the witness of Jesus Christ

Veteran, this is MYTH! Your timing is almost 2000 years off. These are CHURCH AGE martyrs. If they were 70th week martyrs (from the last half of the week) they would KNOW they have only to wait 3 1/2 years or less. The first five seals were broken in 32 AD when Jesus first ascended into the throne room. (Rev. 5) Why would John have written about martyrs being killed in the second half of the week, here in Chapter 6? He does not even introduce the Beast that will CAUSE the beheading until chapter 13. So you are also 7 chapters off.

Because this verse includes the idea of 'flying', the Pre-Trib Rapture School tries to treat it as part of their escape the trib system of theories. It is NOT... about a literal flying, for that idea here is a symbolic metaphor only. There is NO literal physical fleeing in this at all. The reason many miss this point is because they don't continue to read the next verses...

This is pure MYTH. If anything, it is posttribbers that will be looking for a place to HIDE. Pretribbers will be safe in heaven with the door shut! And there WILL be a physical fleeing.

Here is why the symbolic woman flies into the wilderness for 3.5 years. It's to be protected from what that "serpent" (Satan) spews out of his mouth. First of all, what comes out of one's mouth??? WORDS do.

Ha ha ha! The earth swallowed up WORDS! Spiritualizing what is meant to be taken literally just ends up being nonsense. The devil certainly has the power to cause FLOODS, and this will be a real flood of water, to kill those who are literally fleeing.

What specific lie did our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warn us about for the very end of this world for the tribulation timing?

Typical MYTH, mans ideas without good exegesis of the word of God. JESUS said they are to flee when the see the abomination. Or will Veteran spiritualize that verse too? Jesus was NOT trying to confuse them will symbolism. They are to RUN on foot the moment they see the abomination. They will not have time to stop at the house and get a coat. The very fact they are fleeing shows us they are NOT confused or deceived about who this is.

The flying into the wilderness idea is a symbol for her NOT being deceived by Satan's flood. It is not a physical fleeing at all.

You will be very embarrassed when this really happens exactly like John wrote it. OF COURSE it is a physical fleeing. Jesus TOLD them to run.

Now if the symbolic woman had actually physically fled already, then how is it the woman even needs this help here? This verse is another proof that the woman has NOT... physically fled anywhere.

How long will it take someone ON FOOT to run all the way from Judea to the wilderness of Jordan? It is over 100 miles as the crow flies from Jerusalem to Petra and Bozrah. They will certainly not go as the crow flies so they will travel farther. It could take two or three days. It is not a symbolic woman, Jesus said those living in JUDEA are to flee. So for the most part, we can guess they will be descendants of Jacob. She BEGAN to flee in 12:6 the moment she saw the abomination. She is still fleeing in 12:14. This is not rocket science. It is simple. They are running on foot. This makes GOOD SENSE in the literal sense. If you spiritualize it, you get nonsense.

Once that old serpent Satan realizes his lies of deception won't take upon the woman, he then goes after God's elect (the woman) to destroy with war.

This is more nonsense: it is the woman, those living in Judea, that will flee. The dragon will be prevented by God from killing them, so he will turn to the REMNANT OF HER SEED. What would be the "seed" of Israel? The CHURCH came out of Israel. Why only a remnant left? Because the pretrib rapture took all the rest to heaven previous to this time. This means he will now turn to ALL OTHER BELIEVERS, meaning Gentile believers and the Jews living around the world. It is not war as in Armageddon, it is war on individuals, that is, hunting them down like animals and beheading all who refuse to worship his idol and his mark.

God's sealing of His is HOW we don't become deceived by the coming of Satan with his angels BEFORE... they even get here for the end

Total and complete MYTH, not backed by any scripture. They are sealed for their PHYSICAL protection, as seen when the stinging little beasties cannot sting them, for they have the mark. This is SCRIPTURE, not man's theories.

It is far wiser to take any scripture that makes sense literally as a literal verse, speaking of literal things. If one begins to spirituallize verses that make sense literally, they end up with nonsense, which is what most of this post is. Jesus told those living in Judea to FLEE when the see the abomination. In 12:6 they are OBEYING Jesus' words. It is as simple and plain as that. There is NO NEED to spiritualize any of this.

Lamad

In the following, our Lord Jesus is getting ready to be delivered up to be crucified, and He is preparing His disciples for it. Note the 30th verse especially.

John 14:28-30
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
(KJV)

In the above, our Lord Jesus was not crucified yet. When He spoke of His going to The Father, that was His ascension to Heaven per Acts 1 to the right hand of The Father's Throne, where He awaits the time of His return. The "Hereafter I will not talk much with you..." was for after He went to The Father. And then He warns us about the "prince of this world cometh" after that. That is the same idea as saying, the Antichrist is coming after I've gone to The Father. This is one of the several Scripture warnings about the coming of Satan as a final Antichrist for the very end of this world prior to Christ's return.

Per the Book of Job, Satan appeared before God's Throne in the Heavenly, even after he had already rebelled and originally cast down. That is how he still stands as the accuser of our brethren in the Heavenly still right now.

So what's the difference with the Rev.12:7-17 Scripture casting to the earth?

In the John 14:30 verse, our Lord Jesus is actually giving us a 'warning'... about Satan's coming to earth, after... Christ's crucifixion. So he definitely was not locked in his pit prison at Christ's death on the cross. We even know per Rev.20 that Satan won't be 'bound' until Christ Jesus returns and starts His "thousand years" reign.

Rev.12:8 gives us the clear picture, it's just that many are so used to listening to men's doctrines about this matter they have a difficult time grasping the idea in God's Word that there's only 2 different dimensions of existence, this earthly, and the heavenly.

Since Rev.12:8 reveals at that point there will be no more place found for Satan in Heaven, that means he is going to be cast out of the Heavenly dimension de facto into our earthly dimension.

In other words, we will physically see him and his angels. But the problem is, Satan has the image of man just like us, as do his angels. So how can we recognize Satan when he comes here in our earthly dimension? By listening to God in His Word, for He revealed it to us if we'd only listen to Him and believe.


The "wilderness" idea of Rev.12:14 is in the sense of a 'solitary' place, just as the Greek word was rendered in Mark 1:35 (KJV) when our Lord Jesus went to pray.

Moreover, we cannot separate that period in Rev.12:14 from the "time, times, and an half" in the Book of Daniel.

Dan 12:7
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
(KJV)

If the power of the holy people is to be scattered in that time by the false one, that means they do not physically flee anywhere, only that their power is subdued for that period of a time, times, and an half (or 1260 days, or 42 months, or 3.5 years).

In other words, we will physically see him and his angels. But the problem is, Satan has the image of man just like us, as do his angels. So how can we recognize Satan when he comes here in our earthly dimension?

Silly! Angels are demons are around us all the time, but we cannot see them for they are in the spiritual dimension.

If the power of the holy people is to be scattered in that time by the false one, that means they do not physically flee anywhere, only that their power is subdued for that period of a time, times, and an half (or 1260 days, or 42 months, or 3.5 years).

It will only be a small portion of them that will flee. There will be plently of worldy descendants of Jacob still remaining in the citys of Israel. But these are who the Dragon will go after next, failing to get those who fled.

Lamad

 

[Rex]

In the following, our Lord Jesus is getting ready to be delivered up to be crucified, and He is preparing His disciples for it. Note the 30th verse especially.

John 14:28-30
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
(KJV)

In the above, our Lord Jesus was not crucified yet. When He spoke of His going to The Father, that was His ascension to Heaven per Acts 1 to the right hand of The Father's Throne, where He awaits the time of His return. The "Hereafter I will not talk much with you..." was for after He went to The Father. And then He warns us about the "prince of this world cometh" after that. That is the same idea as saying, the Antichrist is coming after I've gone to The Father. This is one of the several Scripture warnings about the coming of Satan as a final Antichrist for the very end of this world prior to Christ's return.


Per the Book of Job, Satan appeared before God's Throne in the Heavenly, even after he had already rebelled and originally cast down. That is how he still stands as the accuser of our brethren in the Heavenly still right now.

Looks to me as though he warning them that Satan's about be case out of Heaven, and he's going to be a bit upset when that happens.

So what's the difference with the Rev.12:7-17 Scripture casting to the earth?

In the John 14:30 verse, our Lord Jesus is actually giving us a 'warning'... about Satan's coming to earth, after... Christ's crucifixion. So he definitely was not locked in his pit prison at Christ's death on the cross. We even know per Rev.20 that Satan won't be 'bound' until Christ Jesus returns and starts His "thousand years" reign.

Satan has always had access to earth, and heaven until Jesus victory at the cross. This is Christianity 101 why do ignore the basic salvation message to shore up your miss conception?

Rev 12:10-11 is speaking of present tense of salvation. Not some where in the future, Are you still wanting for "now salvation has come" does salvation only happen when satan is case out of heaven at some future point? What kind of salvation do you believe in If thats the case? Verse 11 is speaking of the Apostles and others that believed and were persecuted.

Rev.12:8 gives us the clear picture, it's just that many are so used to listening to men's doctrines about this matter they have a difficult time grasping the idea in God's Word that there's only 2 different dimensions of existence, this earthly, and the heavenly.

Since Rev.12:8 reveals at that point there will be no more place found for Satan in Heaven, that means he is going to be cast out of the Heavenly dimension de facto into our earthly dimension.

That's right, no more placed found for him in heaven, thats the cross,

In your opinion what event happens in the future that can possibly equate to the cross empowering the Angels to expel him by force?

When Jesus was seated at the right hand of God and the earth became his foot stool, that is in reference to Gen 3:15 completed -->> the seed has bruised the head of the serpent "prince of this world" with his heal, victory plan and simple. All things all power in heaven was given unto Him at this time, do you really think Jesus is sitting up there putting up with Satan, allowing him in His presents? I don't think so.

Eph 1:20-23 ----->> and God placed all things under his feet
1 Peter 3:22

In other words, we will physically see him and his angels. But the problem is, Satan has the image of man just like us, as do his angels. So how can we recognize Satan when he comes here in our earthly dimension? By listening to God in His Word, for He revealed it to us if we'd only listen to Him and believe.

complete speculation

 

[veteran]

Veteran, you are correct on the timing of the war in heaven. The signal for Michael to go after the Dragon will be the 7th trumpet that divides the week. The war then will immediately follow the 7th trumpet.

The war of Rev.12:7-9 will happen PRIOR to the 7th Trumpet sounding. Satan's casting to the earth is what begins the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period.

The 7th Trumpet signals the end of Satan's reign and end of the tribulation.

On the 5th Seal in Rev.6 we're given another picture of the saints that are to be beheaded for the witness of Jesus Christ

Veteran, this is MYTH! Your timing is almost 2000 years off. These are CHURCH AGE martyrs. If they were 70th week martyrs (from the last half of the week) they would KNOW they have only to wait 3 1/2 years or less. The first five seals were broken in 32 AD when Jesus first ascended into the throne room. (Rev. 5) Why would John have written about martyrs being killed in the second half of the week, here in Chapter 6? He does not even introduce the Beast that will CAUSE the beheading until chapter 13. So you are also 7 chapters off.

You obviously forgot Mark 13:9-12 which our Lord Jesus gave us as warning during the tribulation timing...

Mark 13:9-12
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
(KJV)

Because this verse includes the idea of 'flying', the Pre-Trib Rapture School tries to treat it as part of their escape the trib system of theories. It is NOT... about a literal flying, for that idea here is a symbolic metaphor only. There is NO literal physical fleeing in this at all. The reason many miss this point is because they don't continue to read the next verses...

This is pure MYTH. If anything, it is posttribbers that will be looking for a place to HIDE. Pretribbers will be safe in heaven with the door shut! And there WILL be a physical fleeing.

The Rev.12 fleeing into the wilderness Scripture has often... been used by the Pre-Trib Rapture School to try and show a rapture to Heaven of the Church PRIOR to the "great tribulation". So their usage of that is not myth.

Here is why the symbolic woman flies into the wilderness for 3.5 years. It's to be protected from what that "serpent" (Satan) spews out of his mouth. First of all, what comes out of one's mouth??? WORDS do.

Ha ha ha! The earth swallowed up WORDS! Spiritualizing what is meant to be taken literally just ends up being nonsense. The devil certainly has the power to cause FLOODS, and this will be a real flood of water, to kill those who are literally fleeing.

The Rev.12 is showing the woman flying into the wilderness for protection against what comes out of the serpent's MOUTH. Sad you don't understand that what comes out of one's mouth are words, and in Satan case lies to cause deception. The first warning our Lord Jesus gave us in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13 was to not let any man deceive us. That especially applies to the coming Antichrist which Jesus and His Apostles warned us about for the end. But if you want to listen to doctrines of devils instead of Him in His Word, then go to.

What specific lie did our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warn us about for the very end of this world for the tribulation timing?

Typical MYTH, mans ideas without good exegesis of the word of God. JESUS said they are to flee when the see the abomination. Or will Veteran spiritualize that verse too? Jesus was NOT trying to confuse them will symbolism. They are to RUN on foot the moment they see the abomination. They will not have time to stop at the house and get a coat. The very fact they are fleeing shows us they are NOT confused or deceived about who this is.

Because of another spirit in you, you cannot even bring yourself to say what that lie is which Apostle Paul warned us of in 2 Thess.2. It's about the "strong delusion" Paul taught. And that strong delusion is about a false messiah coming to Jerusalem to set himself in a rebuilt temple there and proclaim himself as God, and demand that all worship him as God, all PRIOR to Christ's coming and any gathering of His Church.

The flying into the wilderness idea is a symbol for her NOT being deceived by Satan's flood. It is not a physical fleeing at all.

You will be very embarrassed when this really happens exactly like John wrote it. OF COURSE it is a physical fleeing. Jesus TOLD them to run.

I will not be embarrased when my Lord Jesus Christ returns, for I know the order of events to occur because I listen to Him in His Word of Truth. But you are listening to doctrines of devils, and if you don't repent and make a change, it's you that will be like the dead carcase gathered wheresoever the fake eagles are, like Jesus warned in Matt.24:28 and the end of Luke 17. The Rev.12 flying into the wilderness is metaphorical, not literal.

Now if the symbolic woman had actually physically fled already, then how is it the woman even needs this help here? This verse is another proof that the woman has NOT... physically fled anywhere.

How long will it take someone ON FOOT to run all the way from Judea to the wilderness of Jordan? It is over 100 miles as the crow flies from Jerusalem to Petra and Bozrah. They will certainly not go as the crow flies so they will travel farther. It could take two or three days. It is not a symbolic woman, Jesus said those living in JUDEA are to flee. So for the most part, we can guess they will be descendants of Jacob. She BEGAN to flee in 12:6 the moment she saw the abomination. She is still fleeing in 12:14. This is not rocket science. It is simple. They are running on foot. This makes GOOD SENSE in the literal sense. If you spiritualize it, you get nonsense.

The Rev.12 help the woman gets is with the waters as a flood out of the serpent's mouth being swallowed by the earth. It's a symbolic metaphor, not a physical opening of the earth to swall waters. Before you can even present an argument, you have first STICK to what the Scripture is actually... talking about, and not fly off into la-la myths like you're doing. The ONLY area of protection from the strong delusion during the tribulation will be in Jesus Christ Himself away from deception. There will be NO place on earth to hide in that time. The fleeing of Luke 21 is of the time just before Satan's armies strikes, which is at the very end... of the tribulation time, not during it.

Once that old serpent Satan realizes his lies of deception won't take upon the woman, he then goes after God's elect (the woman) to destroy with war.

This is more nonsense: it is the woman, those living in Judea, that will flee. The dragon will be prevented by God from killing them, so he will turn to the REMNANT OF HER SEED. What would be the "seed" of Israel? The CHURCH came out of Israel. Why only a remnant left? Because the pretrib rapture took all the rest to heaven previous to this time. This means he will now turn to ALL OTHER BELIEVERS, meaning Gentile believers and the Jews living around the world. It is not war as in Armageddon, it is war on individuals, that is, hunting them down like animals and beheading all who refuse to worship his idol and his mark.

The Rev.12:17 labeled who the flying into wilderness metaphor is for. It definitely is NOT... about unbelievers in Jerusalem. It is about Christ's Church ONLY, for both believing Israel and believing Gentiles, in ALL nations, for that's who has the testimony of Jesus Christ like the verse says. So strike ANY idea about that "remnant" meaning unbelieving Jews in the state of Israel, it's not to them. It's to Christ's Church, for that's who the symbolic woman in that chapter represents, the WHOLE of Christ's Church on earth. And in this remnant case, it's only about those in Christ Jesus that remain... faithful waiting for His return during that time, while everyone else will be deceived by the waters out of the serpent's mouth.

God's sealing of His is HOW we don't become deceived by the coming of Satan with his angels BEFORE... they even get here for the end

Total and complete MYTH, not backed by any scripture. They are sealed for their PHYSICAL protection, as seen when the stinging little beasties cannot sting them, for they have the mark. This is SCRIPTURE, not man's theories.

It is far wiser to take any scripture that makes sense literally as a literal verse, speaking of literal things. If one begins to spirituallize verses that make sense literally, they end up with nonsense, which is what most of this post is. Jesus told those living in Judea to FLEE when the see the abomination. In 12:6 they are OBEYING Jesus' words. It is as simple and plain as that. There is NO NEED to spiritualize any of this.

But the idea of God sealing His servants PRIOR to the four winds blowing per Rev.7 IS... written, and elsewhere also. Even the idea Christ gave in Matt.24:24 about the pseudo-Christ working great wonders and signs that would deceive even His elect, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, is a pointer to their prior sealing away from the deception, for His elect will NOT be deceived by the coming false messiah to Jerusalem. Of course none of this makes sense to you because another spirit you've received is preventing you from even addressing the Scripture using common sense.

In other words, we will physically see him and his angels. But the problem is, Satan has the image of man just like us, as do his angels. So how can we recognize Satan when he comes here in our earthly dimension?

Silly! Angels are demons are around us all the time, but we cannot see them for they are in the spiritual dimension.

Then you've omitted quite a bit of God's written Word, because there are quite a few Bible examples of angels appearing on earth to flesh people, and they appeared with the image of men. Even the sodomites of Sodom and Gomorrah saw the two angels sent to Lot as young men, and wanted to 'know' them in the Biblical sense (Gen.18 & 19). The angels are heavenly order beings, and so is Satan since he is a cherub per Ezekiel 28. And afterall, the Rev.12:7-9 Scripture speaks of Satan and his 'angels' being cast to earth with him. So if you're going to try and debate the Scripture, once again, you've got to learn to stick to the subject of the Scripture first.

If the power of the holy people is to be scattered in that time by the false one, that means they do not physically flee anywhere, only that their power is subdued for that period of a time, times, and an half (or 1260 days, or 42 months, or 3.5 years).

It will only be a small portion of them that will flee. There will be plently of worldy descendants of Jacob still remaining in the citys of Israel. But these are who the Dragon will go after next, failing to get those who fled.

Lamad

The only fleeing in Judea will be those who believe on Jesus when Satan and his host army surrounds it, and Christ's coming then gets ready to happen.

 

[Rex]

Veteran; I see you made your daily visit to every prophesy thread that's active
No comment on post #7

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

And the cross has had no effect on this privilege?

................................................

In fact, Luke 10 makes the timing abundantly clear:

17. The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18. He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

I dont know ...Jesus saw Satan fall before he went to the cross ..... and there is the fact that Satan will be bound during the 1000 years ... so doesn't that mean he is not bound now ??

 

[Rex]

I dont know ...Jesus saw Satan fall before he went to the cross ..... and there is the fact that Satan will be bound during the 1000 years ... so doesn't that mean he is not bound now ??

Jesus empowered to 70+2 to go out, with it Satan and his angels were subject but still had access to heaven. In essence I suppose you could believe that at this point he was defeated but Jesus see's him fall. what we see in Rev is a forced eviction off all the fallen Angels. And to add the prophesy of Gem 3:15 was fulfilled when Jesus was seated at the fathers right hand and all his enemy's made His footstool. 1 Peter 3:22 <--- that is a completed work Peter is describing, not something yet to come. and look at Eph 1:20-23 ESV all things under his feet, that includes Satan the prince of this world.

Gen 3:15 KJV
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed "Satan" and her seed "Jesus"; it Jesus shall bruise thy head, and thou Satan shalt bruise his heel.
Jesus heal is now placed on his footstool the earth which is Satans last stand. Eph 1:20-23

And yes he is going to be bound but it is yet to take place, and what are we to see? Rev 20:1-2
This is a one Angel act directed at Satan alone, the description in Rev 12 is a mass eviction of all the fallen Angels from heaven it's the place of the last stand, The next act is being bound by a single Angel.

In short If you don't believe Rev 12:10 has come, then you have a different view of salvation that I do. That loud voice was heard when Jesus defeated death, and took His place at the Fathers right hand. To apply Rev 12 to the future is to deny the completed works of the cross.

Isaiah 66:1

In fact, Luke 10 makes the timing abundantly clear:

17. The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18. He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
20. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.” (Luke 10:17-20).

To summarize, Satan started to be defeated with the preaching of the Gospel, and was fully defeated at the cross of Calvary, even though he may -still be referred to as 'the ruler of this world,' or even 'the god of this world' (NIV: 'the god of this age')

 

[veteran]

I dont know ...Jesus saw Satan fall before he went to the cross ..... and there is the fact that Satan will be bound during the 1000 years ... so doesn't that mean he is not bound now ??

That's right, Satan is still... not bound today yet.

But WHERE does he live and operate right now???

His home is STILL in the Heavenly dimension existence right now, in a place of separation in the Heavenly known as hell (hades per Greek). He has the image of man also, just as all the angels do.

He's just not manifested IN OUR EARTHLY DIMENSION yet, but will be, soon.

That's what the future war in Heaven is about with these verses...
Rev 12:7-8
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
(KJV)

 

[iamlamad]

I dont know ...Jesus saw Satan fall before he went to the cross ..... and there is the fact that Satan will be bound during the 1000 years ... so doesn't that mean he is not bound now ??

What was happening when Jesus saw Satan falling to earth?

17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

First it was Jesus destroying his kingdom, then it was 12, and now it was 70. Satan had to come and take a PERSONAL LOOK.
These 70 were giving him a severe headache! In the first 4000 years, he had only a very few who were attacking his kingdom, like Elijah and Elisha, and scattered out over so many years. Then it was Jesus, then it was 12, and then it was 70! He must be nearly out of his wits now! He is free to roam the heavenlies (2nd heaven), roam the earth, and drop down into hell to check on things there. But as Veteran said, the day is soon coming where he will be CONFINED to earth. And soon after that, bound for a thousand years.

Lamad

 

[Rex]

That's right, Satan is still... not bound today yet.

But WHERE does he live and operate right now???

His home is STILL in the Heavenly dimension existence right now, in a place of separation in the Heavenly known as hell (hades per Greek). He has the image of man also, just as all the angels do.

Hummm it looks as though there has been a jail break from hell

1 Peter 5:8
Eph 4:27;6:11
James 4:7

And that's the short list

 

[iamlamad]

Looks to me as though he warning them that Satan's about be case out of Heaven, and he's going to be a bit upset when that happens.


Satan has always had access to earth, and heaven until Jesus victory at the cross. This is Christianity 101 why do ignore the basic salvation message to shore up your miss conception?

Rev 12:10-11 is speaking of present tense of salvation. Not some where in the future, Are you still wanting for "now salvation has come" does salvation only happen when satan is case out of heaven at some future point? What kind of salvation do you believe in If thats the case? Verse 11 is speaking of the Apostles and others that believed and were persecuted.



That's right, no more placed found for him in heaven, thats the cross,

In your opinion what event happens in the future that can possibly equate to the cross empowering the Angels to expel him by force?

When Jesus was seated at the right hand of God and the earth became his foot stool, that is in reference to Gen 3:15 completed -->> the seed has bruised the head of the serpent "prince of this world" with his heal, victory plan and simple. All things all power in heaven was given unto Him at this time, do you really think Jesus is sitting up there putting up with Satan, allowing him in His presents? I don't think so.

Eph 1:20-23 ----->> and God placed all things under his feet
1 Peter 3:22

complete speculation

You just don't undertstand what Adam gave away when he sinned. He gave away planet earth! Satan usurped Adam's dominion over earth and will KEEP that dominion until Adam's lease runs out. That scroll in the hand of the Father with the seven seals, that is the earth lease. It is due to expire when the first 6000 years is up. That event takes place at the 7th trumpet. If you look, you will see that it is THERE that the kindgoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord. The sounding of the 7th trumpet marks the END of one millennium and the beginning of the next, the Millennial Reign of Christ. If you notice, it is perhaps ONE SECOND after the sounding of the 7th trumpet that Michael goes after Satan. You see, suddenly Satan has NOTHING legal to hold onto, for the lease he usurped is EXPIRED! It was not time to expire His lease when Jesus died. 6000 year were not up.

Yes, Jesus totally defeated Him, but gave His authority over him to THE CHURCH. So if we enforce that defeat, Satan has no power over US. We are NEVER told to pray to God about the devil, we are told to RESIST him and make him flee!

Satan became the god of this world when Adam sined, and has remained with that title and dominion ever since. But at the 7th trumpet, it will all END. But he will be cast down to earth to cause hell on earth.

Lamad

Hummm it looks as though there has been a jail break from hell

1 Peter 5:8
Eph 4:27;6:11
James 4:7

And that's the short list

Yes, he is still running around looking LIKE a roaring lion....only if we look closely he has LOST HIS TEETH! Uesus disarmed him! Hallelujah! All he can do is deceive. He certainly can do that.

Lamad

 

[Trumpeter]

Greetings veteran,

I think you should include Rev 12:1-6 as it sets the stage for the event.

Chapters 12 through 19 constitute a rerun of the Tribulation hour as presented in Chapters 6 through 11. Thus, at this point we come once again into the middle of the Tribulation - and to the worst wave of anti-Semitism the world has ever seen. This is truly what Jeremiah had in mind in chapter 30, verse 7, when he said, Alas! For that day [is] great, So that none [is] like it; And it [is] the time of Jacob's trouble. Jacob, as one discovers in Romans 11:26, is Israel.

A number of great signs and occurrences are witnessed in this chapter, each having to do with Aransas judgment that is enveloping the earth, including the persecution being directed against Israel. These include a great wonder (verse 1), a great red dragon (verse 3), great wrath (verse 12), and 2 wings of a great eagle (verse 14).

Rev 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

In total, the book of Revelation pictures 4 different women: (1) Jezebel, the high priestess of paganism (chapter 2, verse 20); (2) the scarlet woman, the high priestess of apostasy (Chapter 17); (3) the Lambs wife, the representative of the true, blood-bought Church (chapter 19, verse 7); and (4) Israel, in the text before us.

Who, then, is this woman, and why did she appear? The term wonder in the text comes from the same Greek word sign. Last, we see that the woman is a sign. What sign? The sign of Israel. Let's prove this assertion.

The woman of Revelation 12:1 was pictured in the dream of Joseph centuries ago: Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." So he told [it] to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, "What [is] this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?" And his brothers envied him, but his father kept the matter [in mind]. (Genesis 37:9-11).

Clearly, the woman clothed with the sun and wearing a crown of 12 stars upon her head, just like in Joseph's dream, is Israel. The birth of this woman's (Israel's) son is predicted in Isaiah 66, versus 7 and 8: "Before she was in labor, she gave birth; Before her pain came, She delivered a male child. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? [Or] shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave birth to her children [or her son]. Isaiah's prediction finds its fulfillment in the next verse.

Rev 12:2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

Here we have the mother, Israel, bringing forth a man-child who is none other than the blessed Lord Jesus Christ, as one discovers in verse 5. This truth harmonizes with many NT texts. For instance, Romans 9:4, 5 states; who are Israelites, to whom [pertain] the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service [of God], and the promises; of whom [are] the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ [came], who is over all, [the] eternally blessed God. Amen.

Christ, in His flesh, came forth from Israel; and, at this point in the text, Christ's adversary, Satan - the one who rebelled centuries ago against the authority of God (see Isaiah 14:12 – 14) is about to strike another blow.

Rev 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.

Rev 12:4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.

The red Dragon is conclusively proven to be Satan in verse 9. The number seven speaks of completeness, and therefore, the dragon's 7 heads picture his wisdom. It is written that Satan is full of wisdom (Ezekiel 28:12). God created him that way when he was the anointed cherub [or angel] that covers (Ezekiel 28:14). His ten horns speak of universal power just as the 10 toes of Daniels image do. Satan's international control, of course, is possible because millions of demons jump at his command. Remember, he is the god of this world system (2 Corinthians 4:4). He is also the prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2) and the prince of this world (John 12:31). However, since he is not omniscient (all knowing), or omnipresent (in all places at all times), Satan must rely on demonic hosts (fallen angels) in diversified places to administer his power. This explains why Christians are not fighting against flesh and blood only but against spiritual wickedness in high places as well (Ephesians 6:12). Satan probably enlisted the angels who fell at the time of his rebellion when his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven [a reference to angels] and did cast them to the earth. A similar reference is found in Jude 13.

At this point, one may ask why we use these text to discuss past, present, and future history. The answer is simple. The scene we are about to witness speaks of the entire age-long conflict from beginning to end. It's details are squeezed into these few verses before us. The same devil who attempted to destroy the woman's [or Israel's] son in centuries past (see Genesis 3:15) is now about to strike out against the woman herself via the greatest anti-Semitic purge in history. Hitler's murderous and barbaric attempt at Jewish annihilation will seem like a Sunday school picnic compared to this holocaust! That's why Daniel stated: There shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book (12:1). Jesus himself said in Matthew 24:21, 22, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. The elect, as spoken here, are the Israelites of Romans 11:28.

Verse 5 proves my earlier statement that verses before us cover the age-long conflict - past, present, and future.

Rev 12:5 She bore a male Child [2,000 years ago], who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron [future]. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne [the present age of grace].

Rev 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

During this final 42 month period, described as the Great Tribulation (see Revelation 7:14), because of its intensity and immensity, the Children of Israel are protected by their God. He took care of them for 40 years as a wandered through the wilderness, and now He again proves his love to His ancient people by delivering them. Yes, they shall be saved out of it (Jeremiah 30:7). And at that time thy people shall be delivered (Daniel 12:1). Matthew 24:22 adds, For the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The "elect" in this text are unmistakably Jews (see Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, 65:9, 22). In the next few verses, a shocking space war takes place.

Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,

Rev 12:8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Some Bible authorities believe that this war in heaven began at the time of the rapture in chapter 4, verse 1. Since a war involves a number of skirmishes or battles, this is a distinct possibility. The assumption is based on Daniel 12:1 and 2.

These scholars reason that since those who are caught up in the Rapture of the Church must pass through the areas where Satan reigns - the aerial and stellar heavens - Satan becomes aroused and attempts to hinder this evacuation of the Saints from the earth. However, as he attempts to interfere in this glorious event, angels - ministers of the Saints (see Hebrews 1:14) rush to the rescue, and the space confrontation and conflagration begins. This happened in the past, why could it not occur again? Where did it happen in the past? Consider Daniel 10:13 as we are introduced to Michael the commander-in-chief of heavens armies. Daniel says, "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, [an angelic name and title] came to help me. God tells Daniel that He had every intention of answering his prayers, but that for 21 days to devil tried to hinder the response. Finally God had to send Michael to battle the devil in the area of his domain (the first and second heavens) in order to make the answer a reality. Thus, it is possible that Michael will again battle God's adversary at the time of the Rapture in order to allow Christians their entrance into glory in the twinkling of an eye, as promised in 1 Corinthians 15:51 – 54.

Michael is mentioned five times in God's Word, beginning with Daniel 10:13. We find him again in Daniel 10:21 where he is described to the Children of Israel as Michael, your prince. His third mention is in Daniel 12:1: At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people. In Jude 9, we find Michael, the Archangel, contending with the devil over the body of Moses. Notice that every time Michael appears, he is connected with the Children of Israel - making it very plausible that he is at war with Satan in our present and fifth text defending the Jewish people.

The war is on, and it is the greatest aerial combat in history: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon [Satan]; and the dragon fought and his angels. Are you shocked to discover Satan in heaven? Most people (including most Christians) imagine him as a little creature dressed in a red uniform, running around in a place called hell, jabbing his victims with a pitchfork. This is all a lot of mythological nonsense.

Satan is a magnificent creature to behold. In fact, his beauty brought his ruin. Ezekiel 28:17 states: Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. Not only is it a lie to picture Satan as a grotesque monstrosity, but it is equally false to place him in hell. He has never been there. He is the god of this world system, the prince of the power of the air, and the prince of this world, as we have already observed. He has been in heavans one and two (the aerial and stellar heavens) since his fall and he will remain there until he is cast to the earth in verse 9. It is also important to note that he is not cast into eternal hell (the lake of fire) to join those he has duped until after the Millennium (chapter 20, verse 10). Now, as this battle is fought, Satan is defeated. Praise God! Satan is mighty, but God is almighty! Satan can destroy, but God can destroy the destroyer! That's why the Christian should never fear the events of daily life. He has victory in Jesus. Yes, greater is he that is in you, then he that is in the world (1 John 4:4).

Satan's demise began when he was cast out of the third heaven (see Isaiah 14:12 – 14), continues until Revelation 12:9 when he is cast out the first and second heavens, and is completed when he is cast into the lake of fire( chapter 20, verse 10). John foresaw that hour and said, The prince of this world shall be cast out (John 12:31) and the prince of this world is judged (John 16:11). To the eternal Christ, Satan's doom was as good as accomplished, but for you and me, time had to pass. Now, in the text, the moment has arrived: (Satan and his angels) prevailed not (verse 8). Michael's gunners zero in, and Satan's place and abiding location for centuries is found no longer. Instead, the dragon (Satan) which deceives the whole world: [is] cast out into the earth and his angels [are] cast out with him. This signals the end of Satan's rule in the aerial and stellar heavens, and the victory celebration begins. All heaven rejoices over that which Michael's defeat of Satan has accomplished.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

The spontaneous praise session within this verse occurs because (1) salvation from Satan's atmosphere control has taken place; (2) God's strength has crushed Satan's might; (3) the kingdom is about to arrive; and (4) the power of Christ will be seeing as He comes to set up his kingdom. Think of it! The united power of Father and Son casts the accuser of the brethren out of the heavens.

Did you know that accusing the brethren is Satan's present ministry? He also uses some ministers and holier-than-thou church members to accomplish this goal. Listen carefully. Every bit of slander against another brother or sister in Christ is simply the devil using an individual's mind and vocal chords. In fact, devil means "slanderer." The term false accuser in the English Bible is translated from the word diablos or devil. Thus, Titus 2:3 states: The older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers. Literally rendered, this verse states: "That the aged woman be not she devils." A woman who gossips is a "she devil", and a male gossip is a "macho devil." Both are controlled by the power of the vile one. No wonder lying is one of the seven sins God hates (see proverbs 6:16 – 19).

When Satan is cast out into the earth (verse 9), the hotspot will be our terra firma where men walk and breathe. At that time there will be only one place of safety and victory - in the arms of the Lord Jesus through his shed blood.

Rev 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

These wise saints resisted Satan by the blood of Jesus and by the Word of God. There is no other way to win a spiritual battle (see Hebrews 4:12). They also overcame Satan by their testimony and loved not their own lives unto death. What a crown awaits them and you, if you're true blue! Thus, John states in Revelation 2:10: Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Though there is rejoicing in the heavenly's, the picture is quite different for earth dwellers.

Rev 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

At this point Satan unleashes all his fury for he knows that within 42 months (3 1/2 years), his reign will be ended. Thus, the great anti-Semetic purge begins.

Rev 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male [Child].

Immediately God intervenes.

Rev 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

This verse describes God in His sovereignty and love, protecting His chosen people for 3 1/2 years. The eagles wings probably indicate an airlift or some other miraculous speedy escape. God is probably reminding the Children of Israel of His act of preservation in Pharaoh's day, and uses the picture of wings to show them His goodness. He declares, 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and [how] I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself (Exodus 19:4). Safety is promised to His people.

Rev 12:15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.

The flood undoubtedly portrays a volume of propaganda - anti-Semetic insinuations, slanders, and slurs, released internationally. Yet, God promises: When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him (Isaiah 59:19).

Rev 12:16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

This verse, too, is reminiscent of the miraculous deliverance God provided the Children of Israel during their exodus from Egypt, when the Red Sea closed in over the Pharaoh and his army. The enemy said, 'I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; My desire shall be satisfied on them. I will draw my sword, My hand shall destroy them.' You blew with Your wind, The sea covered them; They sank like lead in the mighty waters. "Who [is] like You, O LORD, among the gods? Who [is] like You, glorious in holiness, Fearful in praises, doing wonders? You stretched out Your right hand; The earth swallowed them (Exodus 15:9-12). At this point Satan reaches the height of his anger.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Rex]

You just don't undertstand what Adam gave away when he sinned. He gave away planet earth! Satan usurped Adam's dominion over earth and will KEEP that dominion until Adam's lease runs out. That scroll in the hand of the Father with the seven seals, that is the earth lease. It is due to expire when the first 6000 years is up. That event takes place at the 7th trumpet. If you look, you will see that it is THERE that the kindgoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord. The sounding of the 7th trumpet marks the END of one millennium and the beginning of the next, the Millennial Reign of Christ. If you notice, it is perhaps ONE SECOND after the sounding of the 7th trumpet that Michael goes after Satan. You see, suddenly Satan has NOTHING legal to hold onto, for the lease he usurped is EXPIRED! It was not time to expire His lease when Jesus died. 6000 year were not up.

Yes, Jesus totally defeated Him, but gave His authority over him to THE CHURCH. So if we enforce that defeat, Satan has no power over US. We are NEVER told to pray to God about the devil, we are told to RESIST him and make him flee!

Satan became the god of this world when Adam sined, and has remained with that title and dominion ever since. But at the 7th trumpet, it will all END. But he will be cast down to earth to cause hell on earth.

Lamad

Yes, he is still running around looking LIKE a roaring lion....only if we look closely he has LOST HIS TEETH! Uesus disarmed him! Hallelujah! All he can do is deceive. He certainly can do that.

Lamad

Jesus gave his authority to the church, that sound rather Mathew 16 ish or catholic.

The main thrust of my evidence is salvation, when did victory accrue? when was salvation by faith delivered? The accuser has no teeth just as you said, against those in Christ in other words he no longer has a leg to stand on when it comes to accusing Rev 12:10 Look these words up in greek If you need to "from verse 10"

salvation has come <<----------------Did you note that word salvation has come is salvation yet future? I can't find a bible that doesn't use the word salvation.
and the power of the kingdom of heaven
The authority of Christ
for the accuser of the brothers has been thrown down.

All of the underlined happened as Jesus rose from the dead to be seated at the right hand of God.

To say salvation is yet a future event is ridicules it's a denial of the work and time of Jesus,




Verse 11 Rev 12:11 and they have concurred him by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony. This also happened at the cross.

In any case speaking to prophesy chasers is like chasing after the wind. To bad you guys didn't focus on a firm foundation in Christ before you became self proclaimed experts on prophesy, maybe then you would interpret scripture that is NOT in contradiction to the basic salvation message.

Any way

Satan has always had access to earth, and heaven until Jesus victory at the cross. This is Christianity 101 why do ignore the basic salvation message to shore up your miss conception?

Rev 12:10-11 is speaking of present tense of salvation. Not some where in the future, Are you still wanting for "now salvation has come" does salvation only happen when satan is case out of heaven at some future point? What kind of salvation do you believe in If thats the case? Verse 11 is speaking of the Apostles and others that believed and were persecuted.
That's right, no more placed found for him in heaven, thats the cross,

In your opinion what event happens in the future that can possibly equate to the cross empowering the Angels to expel him by force?

When Jesus was seated at the right hand of God and the earth became his foot stool, that is in reference to Gen 3:15 KJV completed -->> the seed has bruised the head of the serpent "prince of this world" with his heal, victory plan and simple. All things all power in heaven was given unto Him at this time, do you really think Jesus is sitting up there putting up with Satan, allowing him in His presents? I don't think so.

Eph 1:20-23 ----->> and God placed all things under his feet
1 Peter 3:22

 

[veteran]

Greetings veteran,

I think you should include Rev 12:1-6 as it sets the stage for the event.

Chapters 12 through 19 constitute a rerun of the Tribulation hour as presented in Chapters 6 through 11. Thus, at this point we come once again into the middle of the Tribulation - and to the worst wave of anti-Semitism the world has ever seen. This is truly what Jeremiah had in mind in chapter 30, verse 7, when he said, Alas! For that day [is] great, So that none [is] like it; And it [is] the time of Jacob's trouble. Jacob, as one discovers in Romans 11:26, is Israel.

The Rev.12:1-5 verses do contain important 'directional beacons' for the remainder of the chapter. But they are mostly historical.

Rev 12:1-5
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:


I'm aware of those symbols of the sun, moon, and twelve starts connected with Joseph's dreams in Genesis 37. That's to show the symbolic woman is about Israel. At Rev.12:17 the whole Church of God is brought into it to represent that symbolic "woman".

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.


That is about the start... of the Seed of the Woman, like Genesis 3:15, the Seed through which Christ Jesus would be born through.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


That is covering two subjects: the 1st is about Satan's rebelliion of old when he drew a third of the angels ("stars") into rebellion with him against God. His beast kingdom of that time had only "seven crowns" instead of the "ten crowns" his kingdom for the end of this world will have, per Rev.13:1.

The 2nd subject is how that "dragon" was ready to devour the Seed of the Woman from which Christ would be born through. Cain was used as the first tool by that old serpent to try and destroy the seedline of the woman (Israel).

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(KJV)

That verse is about Christ Jesus born through the Seed of the Woman, through Mary's womb, and that He ascended to the right hand of The Father, and is to eventually rule over all nations with that rod of iron when He returns in our near future.

What those first 5 verses do is act as a summary of God's Plan of Salvation through His son born of the Seed of the Woman (Israel).

But the Rev.12:6 verse reverts immediately... to prophecies for the very end of this present world.

There is NO ESCAPE in the Rev.12 verses following that.

There is a protection from God away from 'deception', for that's what the water as a flood out of the serpent's MOUTH is about, i.e., LIES that cause one to fall away from Christ and instead bow to him as the coming pseudo-Christ like Jesus Himself said in Matt.24:23-26, or "another Jesus" like Paul said in 2 Cor.11. That's what that symbolic fleeing into the wilderness is really about there, the fleeing being put for protection against the "strong delusion" deception.

 

[iamlamad]

Jesus gave his authority to the church, that sound rather Mathew 16 ish or catholic.

The main thrust of my evidence is salvation, when did victory accrue? when was salvation by faith delivered? The accuser has no teeth just as you said, against those in Christ in other words he no longer has a leg to stand on when it comes to accusing Rev 12:10 Look these words up in greek If you need to "from verse 10"

salvation has come <<----------------Did you note that word salvation has come is salvation yet future? I can't find a bible that doesn't use the word salvation.
and the power of the kingdom of heaven
The authority of Christ
for the accuser of the brothers has been thrown down.

All of the underlined happened as Jesus rose from the dead to be seated at the right hand of God.

To say salvation is yet a future event is ridicules it's a denial of the work and time of Jesus,




Verse 11 Rev 12:11 and they have concurred him by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony. This also happened at the cross.

In any case speaking to prophesy chasers is like chasing after the wind. To bad you guys didn't focus on a firm foundation in Christ before you became self proclaimed experts on prophesy, maybe then you would interpret scripture that is NOT in contradiction to the basic salvation message.

Any way

Rex, did you forget what Jesus said to Pilot?

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my servants had fought that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.

I am well aware of the word "salvation" and the Greek words, Sozo and Soterion. OF COURSE Salvation is free and available to all who choose to come. No one is denying that. I am speaking of the PHYSICAL Kingdoms of the world. It is at the 7th trumpet that the physical kingdoms are transferred from Satan to the King of Kings. I like this verse: it shows what you are saying very well:

1 John 3:8 ...The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].

Yes, Jesus DID give us His authority. These verses show it. We are never told to pray to God about the devil: we must do something about Him ourselves. If Jesus had not given us His authority (as He did with the 70), we could not follow these verses.

1 Peter 5:8-9
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

By the way:

1 Thessalonians 5:20
Despise not prophesyings.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

There are 2 verses in Revelation 12 about the symbolic woman there fleeing into the wilderness. One must understand the 2nd example to know what it's really about. Some here have wrongly been taught to try and use that fleeing idea to push the false Pre-Trib secret Rapture of men's doctrines. They will not stop abusing God's Word away from how it is actually written, so their error is no different on this concept in Rev.12.

Rev 12:7-17
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This casting out has not happenned yet. I know many have been taught it was history when Satan first rebelled against God, because they think it's tied to the verses back at Rev.12:3-4 which is... about Satan's original fall. This casting out here is not, because of the subject verses that follow included with it.

Per Daniel 12:1, this war in Heaven is when the Archangel Michael stands up (i.e., makes a stand per the Hebrew). According to Dan.12:1 the event that follows Michael doing that is a time of trouble that has never been the likes on earth, and shall never be again. Our Lord Jesus repeated that idea in Matt.24 about the "great tribulation" He taught there.

So this event of Satan and his angels being cast out of the heavenly to this earth by Michael is what sets the start of that tribulation timing.


Rev.12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Ask yourself here, back when Satan originally rebelled against God and was cast down, was "the power of Christ" established on earth yet? No, for our Lord Jesus had not been born yet to die on the cross back then. Also, the brethren weren't around then either in order to overcome Satan by the Blood of The Lamb Jesus Christ. You should well know that idea of "the blood of the Lamb" means our Lord Jesus had already died on the cross, which makes it plain this casting down to the earth is still future to us even.

On the 5th Seal in Rev.6 we're given another picture of the saints that are to be beheaded for the witness of Jesus Christ prior to the end of this world. That's tied to these overcomers here.


Rev.12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Once again, the symbolic woman (Israel) did not exist yet at Satan's original fall. The "short time" he will have at this point is the tribulation timing. When this speaks of the devil is come down unto you, it is about Satan and his host of angels being cast out... of the heavenly dimension down to this earth in OUR dimension. This is what will cause the events of Apostle Paul's "strong delusion" warning of 2 Thess.2.


14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The symbolic woman (Israel) is given to fly into the wilderness for a period of 3.5 years ("time, times, and half a time"). That's about a time Daniel was given to warn us about for the end of this world. But note this is in order to flee from what? From the face of the serpent. Well, who were we told back in the 7th verse who that 'serpent' is? It's just another one of Satan's many titles.

Because this verse includes the idea of 'flying', the Pre-Trib Rapture School tries to treat it as part of their escape the trib system of theories. It is NOT... about a literal flying, for that idea here is a symbolic metaphor only. There is NO literal physical fleeing in this at all. The reason many miss this point is because they don't continue to read the next verses...


15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Here is why the symbolic woman flies into the wilderness for 3.5 years. It's to be protected from what that "serpent" (Satan) spews out of his mouth. First of all, what comes out of one's mouth??? WORDS do. That... is what the symbolic woman is given to fly from, words out of Satan's mouth that act "water as a flood". Not literal water, but lies so constant and deceiving that our Lord Jesus compares it to a literal flood of waters.

What specific lie did our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warn us about for the very end of this world for the tribulation timing? We are given a specific warning about the coming of a pseudo-Christ, the "another Jesus" of 2 Cor.11, the false Christ of Matt.24:23-26, the son of perdition of 2 Thess.2:3-4 that's to sit in a temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, and exalt himself over all that is worshipped, or even called... God.

Are you beginning to get a better picture of what Satan's casting down to the earth for the tribulation is going to be about? You should if you understand all those Scripture warnings for the end.

So here's the symbolic woman, and she's under attack by the waters as a flood coming out of the serpent's mouth. In other words, the symbolic woman is STILL here, on the earth. The flying into the wilderness idea is a symbol for her NOT being deceived by Satan's flood. It is not a physical fleeing at all.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Now if the symbolic woman had actually physically fled already, then how is it the woman even needs this help here? This verse is another proof that the woman has NOT... physically fled anywhere. The protection is against Satan's lies that come out of his MOUTH. It is a spiritual protection against being deceived by him and his angels once they are cast out of Heaven to this earth in our direct presence.


17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

Once that old serpent Satan realizes his lies of deception won't take upon the woman, he then goes after God's elect (the woman) to destroy with war. That is the Armageddon point our Lord Jesus taught us in Rev.16. That is when Satan and his host army on earth will try to attack God's people on the very last day of this present world.

Notice this "remnant" keeps God's commandments, AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Does that mean Christ's Church? YES! DEFINITELY! The idea of a remnant there simply means the only ones left not deceived in that time that still remain Faithful waiting on Christ Jesus' coming. It's about those who refuse to bow to the coming Antichrist/pseudo-messiah in false worship thinking he is The Christ like we were warned.

Now if... you understand this so far, you know what the flying into the wilderness is really about, i.e., spiritual protection away the deception out of Satan's mouth. So... if that's what this Rev.12:14 fleeing is really about, what do you think the previous example in Rev.12:6 is about???
Rev 12:6
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(KJV)

That Rev.12:6 verse is given PRIOR to the verse about Satan and his angels being cast down to this earth, so it is PRIOR to the war in Heaven when Satan is cast to this earth. And if that old serpent isn't cast down yet to push his lies as waters of a flood out of his mouth, then what's this prior fleeing of the woman about?

We were supposed to have understood our Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings about the coming of this false one before we got here, and also the previous Revelation chapters before this one too. Do we now just forget all that? What was God's sealing of His servants about per the Rev.7 chapter, and the comparison of those sealed with God's seal versus Satan's mark in the Rev.9 chapter? God's sealing of His is HOW we don't become deceived by the coming of Satan with his angels BEFORE... they even get here for the end. Satan's servants prepare the 'way' for Satan's arrival, pushing lies even before he is cast down to this earth. So if the Rev.12:14 fleeing is about spiritual protection against the strong delusion, then what do you think this Rev.12:6 fleeing is about?

It's about being sealed by our Lord Jesus against the coming strong delusion that's to try the whole world. And boy are Satan's servants here on earth today really pushing his deceptions already (even on Christian Forums like this one), as most of God's people don't even know that the coming Antichrist will be Satan himself coming to play God in Jerusalem, and try to trick you into bowing in false worship to Him, with thinking he is The LORD having returned. But wheresoever the dead carcase is, that's where those fake eagles will be gathered together (Matt.24:28; Luke 17). That's about the spiritually dead that will be deceived by Satan's lies, i.e. Paul's strong delusion warning.

If you well know all this, then you are already... in that wilderness of Rev.12:6 and under Christ's protection against being deceived, having been sealed with His seal. If not... then you have some hard studying to do in His Word after... you cut yourself off from men's doctrines of the day.



So why... did our Lord Jesus use this waters as a flood type metaphor for the lies of deception that comes out of that serpent's mouth (i.e., Satan on earth in our near future)?

Firstly, the idea was used as a symbolic metaphor of the enemy coming upon Israel to destroy back in the Old Testament prophets, like Isaiah 8 and Isaiah 28 and Isaiah 59.

Secondly, it's a link back to the time of the flood in Noah's days, that flood being used as a symbol only for Satan's attack in the last days upon God's people. Per Genesis, the flood waters of Noah's time were at their height upon the earth for a period of 150 days. Per old Hebrew reckoning, 150 days equals a five month period. So our Lord Jesus gave us a clue as to how long the deception of waters as a flood out of Satan's mouth is to work upon the earth for the last days.

Indeed, our Lord Jesus told us all things, if we would only listen to Him.

The wilderness means wondering around trying to find ones PATH unto the RESTING PLACE of God that He has for us.
Jesus was baptized and was SENT into his wilderness for HIS time of testing of the devil AS THE HOLY SPIRIT LED him to be.

Jesus made it straight through and overcame because he knew how to WHIP OUT his spiritual sWord to fight the temptations of the devil by proclaiming to every temptation "IT IS WRITTEN". And after the THIRD RESISTANCE the devil fled from Jesus and he overcame the temptations of the devil. Then he was blessed as the angels came and ministered to him and he came out of his wilderness.
The Hebrews who had all those years of carnal way of life had to pass through the RED SEA(BLOODY DOG EAT DOG LIVING) but God helped them to escape out of Egypt crossing over to the other side. But once there they were given the 10 COMMANDMENTS to prepare them to change their way of thinking to become a people for God..

Yet they did not have the Spirit of God as we have in our BETTER COVENANT who is our helper, so many of them fell in their wilderness walk of faith for they could not measure up because the carnal mind is enmity towards God, but we now have the mind of Christ if the Word is come in your flesh.

But as for you saying there is no rapture, this is not so. There is no pret trib rapture but a mid trib rapture and you failed to see this because you began at Rev 12:6 instead of 12:5 where those who are in the image of Christ the ONE NEW MAN which is 144,000 holy ones who is the man child the body of Christ that is CAUGHT UP just as Paul said they would be. Those who go into the place PREPARED by God are the virgins who were not ready at Christ's coming for his body because he did not recognize them as holy as his body must be. Would you agree that not all who call themselves believers are ready and able to rule and reign as kings and priests? Of course not all are, so these will be the ones left to be fed spiritually and physically on the earth for they were not spiritually ready and flesh and blood can not see or inherit the kingdom of God.

There are only 3 times that the words CAUGHT UP are seen in the Bible and they all pertain to taken up to heaven and here they are:
2 Cor 12:2-4
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV
1 Thess 4:17-18
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV
Rev 12:4-5
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
KJV
This is not talking about Jesus who ASCENDED unto heaven only after he was 33 years old had died and was RAISED UP on the 3rd day.

As you see the heavenly womb of new spiritual Jerusalem is prophesized in Isaiah which is our heavenly mother's womb where all children of God are being birthed from being born again FROM ABOVE. And you should see that the man child is not talking about one man but many as in children of God. And that they are BIRTHED AND CAUGHT UP "BEFORE" the hard labor or wrath of God comes. They will be birthed in one day in the twinkling of an eye as they leave their frail earthy tabernacle/tent behind to receive their spiritual bodies. Now this being caught up to God's throne could very well mean as being placed in their places of authority as the kings and priest's and be on this earth on top of mount Zion safe and sound out of harms way.

Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
KJV

Once the body of Christ being of many members aka sons of God are birthed and caught up, the womb or ENTRANCE into heaven will be closed up by God and the rest of the churches offspring who were not yet spiritually ready will have to be further fed to edify them in the Word to burn away their carnal nature so that they will become more MATURE.
God is a consuming fire and the Word is a flaming sWord and we can not enter heaven with carnal flesh hanging off us. The flesh must be cut and burned away by the works of self sacrificing meaning submitting to Christ to allow the Word and Spirit operate within us to burn and cut to reveal our new nature, reason for this is so that the new world won't become in the same state of corruption as we are seeing today. The carnal man is bloody, always fighting and kicking or using lie's and trickery to gain it's way as a child who throws tempter tantrums to do their desires.
These will not be READY!!

The Rev.12:1-5 verses do contain important 'directional beacons' for the remainder of the chapter. But they are mostly historical.

Rev 12:1-5
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:


I'm aware of those symbols of the sun, moon, and twelve starts connected with Joseph's dreams in Genesis 37. That's to show the symbolic woman is about Israel. At Rev.12:17 the whole Church of God is brought into it to represent that symbolic "woman".

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.


That is about the start... of the Seed of the Woman, like Genesis 3:15, the Seed through which Christ Jesus would be born through.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


That is covering two subjects: the 1st is about Satan's rebelliion of old when he drew a third of the angels ("stars") into rebellion with him against God. His beast kingdom of that time had only "seven crowns" instead of the "ten crowns" his kingdom for the end of this world will have, per Rev.13:1.

The 2nd subject is how that "dragon" was ready to devour the Seed of the Woman from which Christ would be born through. Cain was used as the first tool by that old serpent to try and destroy the seedline of the woman (Israel).

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(KJV)

That verse is about Christ Jesus born through the Seed of the Woman, through Mary's womb, and that He ascended to the right hand of The Father, and is to eventually rule over all nations with that rod of iron when He returns in our near future.

What those first 5 verses do is act as a summary of God's Plan of Salvation through His son born of the Seed of the Woman (Israel).

But the Rev.12:6 verse reverts immediately... to prophecies for the very end of this present world.

There is NO ESCAPE in the Rev.12 verses following that.

There is a protection from God away from 'deception', for that's what the water as a flood out of the serpent's MOUTH is about, i.e., LIES that cause one to fall away from Christ and instead bow to him as the coming pseudo-Christ like Jesus Himself said in Matt.24:23-26, or "another Jesus" like Paul said in 2 Cor.11. That's what that symbolic fleeing into the wilderness is really about there, the fleeing being put for protection against the "strong delusion" deception.

That man child is not Jesus, Jesus is the one telling John of the things to COME IN THE FUTURE not going back in the past.
Rev 1:1
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
KJV

Jesus was born of the virgin Mary but is the Seed of Israel (the Woman) and of God being the Word which the Bible says is the SEED who became flesh but the body of Christ are the son's of God whom all of creation is awaiting the BIRTH OF.
Rom 8:14-23
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV
John 1:1
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
KJV
John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV
Luke 8:11-12
11 Now the parable is this: The SEED is the WORD of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
KJV
Gal 3:19
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
KJV
1 Peter 1:24
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
KJV
1 John 3:9-10
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
KJV