Free Will

[bbyrd009]

Faith, Grace and repentance are all gifts. It doesn't come from anything we can do or say.

i certainly agree, but that can also be twisted, and it has. Imo you must reflect upon other verses to put that in perspective, you must change your mind, you must seek your own salvation, you must pick up your cross and follow, on and on, so to say that you have no part in the process is misleading, and irresponsible imo.

 

[Mjh29]

i certainly agree, but that can also be twisted, and it has. Imo you must reflect upon other verses to put that in perspective, you must change your mind, you must seek your own salvation, you must pick up your cross and follow, on and on, so to say that you have no part in the process is misleading, and irresponsible imo.

You only 'take part' AFTER Christ has regenerated your heart. You are saved BY God's grace, THROUGH Faith. Faith is just the tool God used to change hearts. Before He does, no one can or will repent

 

[bbyrd009]

My foundation is based upon what the scriptures teach. I'm sorry if you find that to be wrong or not accurate. Again, it's what the Bible teaches.

no it is not; and you could be brought to an admission that every single doctrine you hold dear was taught you by someone else--you did not get these from reading Scripture by yourself. Your mother may have conceived you in sin, but you were born sinless. You are not worthless, or completely depraved, if you seek God. On and on.

 

[Mjh29]

no it is not; and you could be brought to an admission that every single doctrine you hold dear was taught you by someone else--you did not get these from reading Scripture by yourself. Your mother may have conceived you in sin, but you were born sinless. You are not worthless, or completely depraved, if you seek God. On and on.

PSALM 58
3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

[bbyrd009]

PSALM 58
3The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

yet babies cannot talk, so your logical interpretation snares you, and you will not see the other passages that conflict with what are essentially your desires, whether or not they align with a holistic view of Scripture.

 

[bbyrd009]

ooookaaaay...? So what is morality?

oooookaaay, you recognize that Scripture is not Word, or okay let's change the subject since you are making no headway against Scripture in that area?

Scripture: In the beginning was Word, and Word was with God, and Word was God.

You: In the beginning was the Bible...

 

[Abiding Grace]

i certainly agree, but that can also be twisted, and it has. Imo you must reflect upon other verses to put that in perspective, you must change your mind, you must seek your own salvation, you must pick up your cross and follow, on and on, so to say that you have no part in the process is misleading, and irresponsible imo.

I'm happy to respect your point of view Christian to Christian. I've provided much scripture. The depraved mind cannot accept the things of God. There is not a single scripture in the Bible that claims that men have free will unto salvation. No, not one! I'll entertain any scripture you have that says that the blood of Christ was shed for every single person who ever lived.

 

[Abiding Grace]

yet babies cannot talk, so your logical interpretation snares you, and you will not see the other passages that conflict with what are essentially your desires, whether or not they align with a holistic view of Scripture.

Huh? This isn't talking about the physical or mental attributes of children. If I may, I don't think that Mjh29 has done anything but provide a solid biblical case as have I.

If you believe you can make a biblical case against total depravity, then please present it.

 

[Abiding Grace]

no it is not; and you could be brought to an admission that every single doctrine you hold dear was taught you by someone else--you did not get these from reading Scripture by yourself. Your mother may have conceived you in sin, but you were born sinless. You are not worthless, or completely depraved, if you seek God. On and on.

Ahhhhh, a semi-pelagian. That explains it then. This way, you get the credit for your salvation instead God making a sovereign choice. I also see Jacob Arminius.

God Bless.

 

[Abiding Grace]

You only 'take part' AFTER Christ has regenerated your heart. You are saved BY God's grace, THROUGH Faith. Faith is just the tool God used to change hearts. Before He does, no one can or will repent

Amen.

John 6:44 - 4 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Alleluia, what a Savior!

 

[bbyrd009]

There is not a single scripture in the Bible that claims that men have free will unto salvation.

so then you do not have to seek your own salvation, or pick up your cross, or change your mind? You guys don't think maybe there is some middle ground in there somewhere?

 

[bbyrd009]

Ahhhhh, a semi-pelagian. That explains it then. This way, you get the credit for your salvation instead God making a sovereign choice. I also see Jacob Arminius.

God Bless.

has to be one or the other though, yes? A or not A, no middle way to understand?

 

[Abiding Grace]

so then you do not have to seek your own salvation, or pick up your cross, or change your mind? You guys don't think maybe there is some middle ground in there somewhere?

A totally depraved person cannot seek salvation.

Only the elect can seek after salvation, pick up a cross and change their minds. Salvation is a gift.

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 - 4 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


The elect are chosen before the foundation of the world. The Bible says so.

Ephesians 1:4-5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Still waiting for that verse!

 

[bbyrd009]

A totally depraved person cannot seek salvation.

i never said they could (although by your logic all are totally depraved right?); but now i'm wondering, if all are totally depraved, then how does anyone find salvation? But i already know your answer, and don't you think this is a bit circular?

 

[Abiding Grace]

i never said they could (although by your logic all are totally depraved right?); but now i'm wondering, if all are totally depraved, then how does anyone find salvation? But i already know your answer, and don't you think this is a bit circular?

The Bible teaches that those chosen will seek after God. Since I have already provided the scripture for that it appears that you are still rejecting what scripture plainly teaches. Perhaps I am not understanding you.

 

[Mjh29]

yet babies cannot talk, so your logical interpretation snares you, and you will not see the other passages that conflict with what are essentially your desires, whether or not they align with a holistic view of Scripture.

What about the 'they go astray as soon as they are born part?'

 

[Mjh29]

The Bible teaches that those chosen will seek after God. Since I have already provided the scripture for that it appears that you are still rejecting what scripture plainly teaches. Perhaps I am not understanding you.

Though, Both you and I are assuming he believes the Bible is the perfect word of God

 

[Mjh29]

oooookaaay, you recognize that Scripture is not Word, or okay let's change the subject since you are making no headway against Scripture in that area?

Scripture: In the beginning was Word, and Word was with God, and Word was God.

You: In the beginning was the Bible...

We, as christians are to 'rightly divide the word of truth.... the same word.... yes the Bible

 

[bbyrd009]

The Bible teaches that those chosen will seek after God. Since I have already provided the scripture for that it appears that you are still rejecting what scripture plainly teaches. Perhaps I am not understanding you.

i guess not, as i am not rejecting that those chosen will seek after God; i am merely challenging that you or anyone else can define them in a universally accepted manner, or especially not one acceptable to God, the one that counts.

And that is after all the point here, ultimately, whether it is said overtly or not; "God predestines, this we know; and we have developed a checklist to determine who is called, and who is not, and you can trust us because after all we are "church fathers." Paul assures us that your church fathers are seekers after the world, strong men who wish to rend the kingdom, as demonstrated by their seeking after men's approval, and rejecting what scripture plainly teaches.

With all due respect you must admit to owning a standard by which you judge others as "saved" or "lost," that you have been indoctrinated into, by the people you trusted to interpret Scripture for you, yet if we examined them closely, i could demonstrate how they have been compromised, and all signed Contracts for Jesus, and invited you to call them "father," and a hundred other violations of Scripture, too, that you doubtless do not want to debate, or even look into too deeply.

And i am not asking you to, ok; as i doubt that these define your faith completely anyway. I am not interested in contesting your beliefs against my interpretation of Scripture. Your beliefs are irrelevant to me--and to God--as strange as that maybe sounds, ok. We even have parables for this, multiple, more than one, that examine the concept from more than one angle.

So yes God certainly predestines; and no, you are not qualified to point them out imo, and neither am i.

 

[Mjh29]

i guess not, as i am not rejecting that those chosen will seek after God; i am merely challenging that you or anyone else can define them in a universally accepted manner, or especially not one acceptable to God, the one that counts.

And that is after all the point here, ultimately, whether it is said overtly or not; "God predestines, this we know; and we have developed a checklist to determine who is called, and who is not, and you can trust us because after all we are "church fathers." Paul assures us that your church fathers are seekers after the world, strong men who wish to rend the kingdom, as demonstrated by their seeking after men's approval, and rejecting what scripture plainly teaches.

With all due respect you must admit to owning a standard by which you judge others as "saved" or "lost," that you have been indoctrinated into, by the people you trusted to interpret Scripture for you, yet if we examined them closely, i could demonstrate how they have been compromised, and all signed Contracts for Jesus, and invited you to call them "father," and a hundred other violations of Scripture, too, that you doubtless do not want to debate, or even look into too deeply.

And i am not asking you to, ok; as i doubt that these define your faith completely anyway. I am not interested in contesting your beliefs against my interpretation of Scripture. Your beliefs are irrelevant to me--and to God--as strange as that maybe sounds, ok. We even have parables for this, multiple, more than one, that examine the concept from more than one angle.

So yes God certainly predestines; and no, you are not qualified to point them out imo, and neither am i.

Nope. We don't claim to know who and who is not saved. I don't know Gods plans. I do not know who he has and has not predestined