Free Will

[bbyrd009]

What about the 'they go astray as soon as they are born part?'

i agree in spirit, even if imo the "as soon as they are born" is likely an alliteration. A one day old child is not willful at all; but a six month old can be, sure.

 

[bbyrd009]

Nope. We don't claim to know who and who is not saved. I don't know Gods plans. I do not know who he has and has not predestined

then pray tell what is the point of even mentioning predestination? What fruit do you reap from this doctrine?

 

[bbyrd009]

We, as christians are to 'rightly divide the word of truth.... the same word.... yes the Bible

by all means believe that as long as you like. I will tell you that Word is Breath, and while Scripture is God~Breathed, and profitable for much, It is not Word, and you cannot meet Him in the Air until you find Word, if you ever do, because the two are intrinsic to each other.

So divide the Word however you like; but the Word cannot be divided, and if you will quote the passage i can even show you the difference. Rhema is not Pneuma, essentially. And if you try to use logic to divide Rhema, imo you will also be led into a cul-de-sac, and confounded.

 

[Mjh29]

then pray tell what is the point of even mentioning predestination? What fruit do you reap from this doctrine?

Knowing that the most important decision of all time isnt in my sinful hands. Knowing that I am secure and safe in Christ, as are all my beloved Christian brothers and sisters. Knowing that He has chosen us, and will never unchose us. Knowing we rest in the Shadows of His Almighty Wings, and that he will never fail nor fosake us. And knowing that there is nothing men can do to stop the advances of His Kingdom, because He has set aside a people for Himself. Knowing that Christ did not die merely to make salvation POSSIBLE, then wring His hands in Heaven saying, "Boy, I do hope they chose me!", but that when He said "It is finished", IT.WAS.FINISHED! He right then had actually SAVED His people, not made them saveable. That is just a fraction of the many reasons why Predestination comforts and includes, rather than excludes.

 

[Mjh29]

by all means believe that as long as you like. I will tell you that Word is Breath, and while Scripture is God~Breathed, and profitable for much, It is not Word, and you cannot meet Him in the Air until you find Word, if you ever do, because the two are intrinsic to each other.

So divide the Word however you like; but the Word cannot be divided, and if you will quote the passage i can even show you the difference. Rhema is not Pneuma, essentially. And if you try to use logic to divide Rhema, imo you will also be led into a cul-de-sac, and confounded.

I do not understand where in scripture you get this idea....

 

[Abiding Grace]

i guess not, as i am not rejecting that those chosen will seek after God; i am merely challenging that you or anyone else can define them in a universally accepted manner, or especially not one acceptable to God, the one that counts.

And that is after all the point here, ultimately, whether it is said overtly or not; "God predestines, this we know; and we have developed a checklist to determine who is called, and who is not, and you can trust us because after all we are "church fathers." Paul assures us that your church fathers are seekers after the world, strong men who wish to rend the kingdom, as demonstrated by their seeking after men's approval, and rejecting what scripture plainly teaches.

The entire idea that salvation is universal, or that Jesus died for all men cannot be true. Lest every one WOULD be saved, because God accomplishes what he wants to accomplish. Arminians hold that Jesus did die for all, but that depraved human beings have to choose Him. The Bible does not teach this. It is assumed, even after the Apostle Paul repeatedly says the elect are saved by the gift of grace APART from any works they can do. There is not a scripture in the entire Bible that says men have free will unto salvation.

With all due respect you must admit to owning a standard by which you judge others as "saved" or "lost," that you have been indoctrinated into, by the people you trusted to interpret Scripture for you, yet if we examined them closely, i could demonstrate how they have been compromised, and all signed Contracts for Jesus, and invited you to call them "father," and a hundred other violations of Scripture, too, that you doubtless do not want to debate, or even look into too deeply.

I admit that my knowledge of God comes from a book named The Holy Bible. I do not know who is saved or 'elect'. Though, our lives should show some evidences of God's work. Sorry to disappoint. Indoctrination is something you cannot prove, and I reject. I cannot account for Scientologists, Moonies, Mormons, and JW cults.

And i am not asking you to, ok; as i doubt that these define your faith completely anyway. I am not interested in contesting your beliefs against my interpretation of Scripture. Your beliefs are irrelevant to me--and to God--as strange as that maybe sounds, ok. We even have parables for this, multiple, more than one, that examine the concept from more than one angle.

So yes God certainly predestines; and no, you are not qualified to point them out imo, and neither am i.

You should seek Jesus with all your heart and mind.

 

[Abiding Grace]

Knowing that the most important decision of all time isnt in my sinful hands. Knowing that I am secure and safe in Christ, as are all my beloved Christian brothers and sisters. Knowing that He has chosen us, and will never unchose us. Knowing we rest in the Shadows of His Almighty Wings, and that he will never fail nor fosake us. And knowing that there is nothing men can do to stop the advances of His Kingdom, because He has set aside a people for Himself. Knowing that Christ did not die merely to make salvation POSSIBLE, then wring His hands in Heaven saying, "Boy, I do hope they chose me!", but that when He said "It is finished", IT.WAS.FINISHED! He right then had actually SAVED His people, not made them saveable. That is just a fraction of the many reasons why Predestination comforts and includes, rather than excludes.

I wish I would have said this. You have a gift for words and a kind demeanor. God Bless.

 

[Mjh29]

I wish I would have said this. You have a gift for words and a kind demeanor. God Bless.

Thank you so much! God bless you as well! It is so nice to find like minded brothers and sisters in the faith! Thank you so much for all the support, it means a lot.

 

[bbyrd009]

Nope. We don't claim to know who and who is not saved. I don't know Gods plans. I do not know who he has and has not predestined

well as i said (postulating, not knowing here), it is not usually overt, but imo that usually is another symptom, along with the argument against free will. That usually comes along next, and i can even show you many examples.

I am not sure who this "we" is that you speak for, but i suggest that this is another symptom; including yourself or others in some undefined group--or worse, defined--when you cannot verify membership in this group for anyone, at least imo.

Who is "we?" Because, see, you start out by saying that you do not know, but then you say "We," which infers that you must know. How can their be a "We" that you (and Hitler, and me) have included ourselves in, if we do not know? See, "we" do not even think about this, this "we" that we assume to lend credence to our position, that does not exist.


Of course this is a rhetorical question, my "we" is different than your "we," but i hope you see the point. And when "predestination" is the answer for "what must i do to be saved?" or even "do i have free will" then the same thing is going on. Personal responsibility is being abdicated so that "we" do not have any role in manifesting the kingdom on earth, when you know for a fact that i can also make a case that God does nothing in our domain without human action, and i can even make a case that He cannot.

And i have other, even more overt examples, but essentially by "we" you mean Calvinists, or something similar, amounting to "we, who have been predestined."

 

[bbyrd009]

Knowing that the most important decision of all time isnt in my sinful hands.

knowing you better temper that with some other Scripture that paints a different picture, lol

Knowing that I am secure and safe in Christ, as are all my beloved Christian brothers and sisters. Knowing that He has chosen us, and will never unchose us.

see what you are doing here? With the "we" and the "us?"

That is just a fraction of the many reasons why Predestination comforts and includes, rather than excludes.

yes and all you had to do was to find a way to include yourself in this group--which i do, too, see, me and Hitler agree with you, we are predestined too--not realizing that you are in fact accepting a definition that suits your desires, so that you might define yourself as "accepted" by God, without maybe contemplating that many will cry LordLord, and God will not use your beliefs as the standard, regardless of how convinced you have become by some guy in a tie who has signed a Contract for Jesus that your beliefs came right from the Book, which he will also assure you is the Word, because he does not know what Word is yet either.

And you call this "inclusive," because of course you are now included, but what about those who do not agree with you? the other 50% iow? Well, they are of course now "them," see, they are not "us" or "we." They are the unpredestined, yes?

 

[Mjh29]

Theres me, Calvinist #1, and Abiding Grace, Calvinist #2. Therefore, wince we are both speaking with you, and I pretty well know she and I are in agreement, I put we. Plural. For the two of us.

well as i said (postulating, not knowing here), it is not usually overt, but imo that usually is another symptom, along with the argument against free will. That usually comes along next, and i can even show you many examples.

I am not sure who this "we" is that you speak for, but i suggest that this is another symptom; including yourself or others in some undefined group--or worse, defined--when you cannot verify membership in this group for anyone, at least imo.

Who is "we?" Because, see, you start out by saying that you do not know, but then you say "We," which infers that you must know. How can their be a "We" that you (and Hitler, and me) have included ourselves in, if we do not know? See, "we" do not even think about this, this "we" that we assume to lend credence to our position, that does not exist.


Of course this is a rhetorical question, my "we" is different than your "we," but i hope you see the point. And when "predestination" is the answer for "what must i do to be saved?" or even "do i have free will" then the same thing is going on. Personal responsibility is being abdicated so that "we" do not have any role in manifesting the kingdom on earth, when you know for a fact that i can also make a case that God does nothing in our domain without human action, and i can even make a case that He cannot.

And i have other, even more overt examples, but essentially by "we" you mean Calvinists, or something similar, amounting to "we, who have been predestined."

Your missing the point. I do not know who He has called. Thats between them and God.
Here's a question: when you pray for someone who does not know he Lord, how do you pray? Do you pray;
"Lord, I know there is nothing you can do, its all on them. I would ask you to change their hearts, but no.... you cant do that either. I would ask you to make them see the truth, but....no.... it has to be up to them. I wish there were something you could do, but salvation is totally up to them. Darn."

OF COURSE NOT! Why? Because in our heart-of-hearts, out true plea to our loving Father for the sake of a dearly loved one is this;
"Lord please CHANGE their hearts, OPEN their eyes, MAKE them see the truth of your love and glory. Please lord, please!"
Why do we pray like this? Because prayer comes from the heart, and deep in our hearts Gods sovereignty is what we truly believe.

 

[bbyrd009]

I do not understand where in scripture you get this idea....

yes, i realize that, but this is because to you "Word" means "Scripture," even though you cannot quote Scripture saying this, not anywhere. Scripture paints a quite different picture of Word, which was with God in the beginning, and is def not the Book. It usually comes down to a reflection on a passage in Chronicles, i think it is, if a seeker even ever gets that far, because after all you by definition cannot find Word if you already know that it is the Book, now can you. It will be info that creates CogDis, and so will be virtually invisible.

We can make or resurrect a thread on the matter if you like, because it is obscured, Word is hidden, albeit in plain sight, and all you have to do to get started there is reconcile why "...and the Bible was God" is rubbish.

 

[Mjh29]

knowing you better temper that with some other Scripture that paints a different picture, lol
see what you are doing here? With the "we" and the "us?"

yes and all you had to do was to find a way to include yourself in this group--which i do, too, see, me and Hitler agree with you, we are predestined too--not realizing that you are in fact accepting a definition that suits your desires, so that you might define yourself as "accepted" by God, without maybe contemplating that many will cry LordLord, and God will not use your beliefs as the standard, regardless of how convinced you have become by some guy in a tie who has signed a Contract for Jesus that your beliefs came right from the Book, which he will also assure you is the Word, because he does not know what Word is yet either.

And you call this "inclusive," because of course you are now included, but what about those who do not agree with you? the other 50% iow? Well, they are of course now "them," see, they are not "us" or "we." They are the unpredestined, yes?

Nope. The branch that bears no fruit will be broken off and burnt. Sorry, nope.

 

[bbyrd009]

The entire idea that salvation is universal, or that Jesus died for all men cannot be true.

so then you apparently are not in Mjh29's "we" after all, see.

Lest every one WOULD be saved, because God accomplishes what he wants to accomplish.

amen, and i suggest that you do not know that everyone is not "saved," at some point, even if all are not right now, and do not see how the two statements that you have made here are conflicting.

There is not a scripture in the entire Bible that says men have free will unto salvation.

at least not that you can see anymore, i agree; nonetheless i apparently must still seek MY OWN salvation, and if "i" must "seek" then it follows that i must have free will otherwise there is no "I" to even seek. All i have to do now is cry "LordLord," see--which i would argue that even that takes free will, but whatever.

 

[bbyrd009]

I do not know who is saved or 'elect'.

i suggest that you, also, are only saying that from one side of your mouth.

 

[bbyrd009]

Indoctrination is something you cannot prove, and I reject.

we'll pick this one up after you have replied to #215. If you hold no doctrines inviolable then it will quickly become apparent, but you have already violated this, and you are about to do it again, to whit;

I cannot account for Scientologists, Moonies, Mormons, and JW cults.

see that you already have, when they are relegated to "them." They are no longer "we" or "us," but "cults" and by extension "whackos" or anyway "judged" no matter how you might slice it.

See, judging for yourself (with free will, btw) is fine, but you have judged others now. (Me too ok you are just the current example, i'm not saying i'm any different)

 

[Mjh29]

i suggest that you, also, are only saying that from one side of your mouth.[/QUOTE
How about, instead of criticizing and critiquing us you actually answer some of OUR questions?

 

[bbyrd009]

You should seek Jesus with all your heart and mind.

yes i should, but i should never, ever be telling this to anyone else in that manner, "YOU should seek Jesus with all your heart and mind," the right way to say that is "I should seek Jesus with all my heart and mind," (wherein i will quickly be led to Christ and away from "Jesus" anyway, but never mind that part for now).

The alternative--the common understanding--is that you are now telling me what to do, what i should do, see, and simultaneously representing that it is you in fact who have already done this, sought Jesus and by inference have found Him, right? Which i am not disagreeing with, ok, but what if you are just someone crying "LordLord?" How would i know? Might these be detected by their proclivity for including themselves in some undefined "We" that they cannot practically demonstrate?

and ps i am aware that you surely meant "One should seek Jesus..." i am just taking advantage of your post to make the point ok.

 

[bbyrd009]

Your missing the point. I do not know who He has called. Thats between them and God.

ok well coughcoughbscough, at least as far as that goes, as has hopefully been demonstrated.

 

[Mjh29]

ok well coughcoughbscough, at least as far as that goes, as has hopefully been demonstrated.

This is ironic. Here you are claiming that we are wrong, and the only evidence you have is pointing fingers saykng 'thats not fair!', and childish retorts. I hopr you feel satisfied in accomplishing nothing but furthering my beliefs. You are not open to any suggestions, but are merely here to poke fun. Heres a suggestion.
If you have anything to say
1. Make it intelligent, please
2. If you cant defend it by scripture, dont say it.
Enouh of th baby games, please