Free Will

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Abiding Grace

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yes, but that heart is not the actual blood-pumping organ, of course, but merely an aspect of the mind, so now we are having a semantics discussion.
nonetheless it is those who do right that are considered righteous by God, so i suggest that this "righteousness as filthy rags" thing is misinterpreted also, into a doctrine that supports "i have no role to play in manifesting the kingdom, and i am just waiting here for Jesus to come back--even though i am the body of Christ, so wait...--and save me--even though i claim to be saved already, so wait..." lol

imo this is why Christ's return is posited as a thief in the night and not a robber, in your face in realtime; one does not realize what they have lost until it is too late.

No, people are completely and utterly depraved:

Romans 5:12English Standard Version (ESV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Genesis 6:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Psalm 51:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

Ecclesiastes 9:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jeremiah 17:9English Standard Version (ESV)

9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

Romans 3:10-12English Standard Version (ESV)

10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Isaiah 53:6English Standard Version (ESV)


6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Proverbs 14:12English Standard Version (ESV)

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.

John 8:43English Standard Version (ESV)

43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 8:7English Standard Version (ESV)

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No one has free will unto salvation. Here is what the scriptures say:

John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

John 1:12,13: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Romans 9:15-16: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Ephesians 1:4-5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Philippians 1:29: "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5: "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

2 Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 - 4 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Faith, grace and repentance are gifts bestowed upon us.


God Bless!



 
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Mjh29

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No, people are completely and utterly depraved:

Romans 5:12English Standard Version (ESV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Genesis 6:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Psalm 51:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

Ecclesiastes 9:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jeremiah 17:9English Standard Version (ESV)

9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

Romans 3:10-12English Standard Version (ESV)

10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Isaiah 53:6English Standard Version (ESV)


6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Proverbs 14:12English Standard Version (ESV)

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.

John 8:43English Standard Version (ESV)

43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 8:7English Standard Version (ESV)

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No one has free will unto salvation. Here is what the scriptures say:

John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

John 1:12,13: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Romans 9:15-16: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Ephesians 1:4-5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Philippians 1:29: "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5: "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

2 Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 - 4 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Faith, grace and repentance are gifts bestowed upon us.


God Bless!


Amen!!! The truth is spoken!!! God bless you, Sister!!!
 

bbyrd009

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No, people are completely and utterly depraved:
that is a terrible lens to be looking through imo, you have a choice to change your mind and leave the world or not, and "seek your own salvation" is not an empty taunt. Neither is the command to be perfect. Even if, yes, it must be sought.

This "people are worthless" characterization is not accurate imo. It is not what you would quote is saying or implying. God needs no help in manifesting the kingdom, now that i agree with. my cool ideas are not relevant, yes, as compared to God's they are going to be like "let's have a bazaar for Jesus" or whatever lol. Rags. I would be mucking up the works when i insert my female, soul, ego, into the mix. But not worthless, sorry.
 

Mjh29

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that is a terrible lens to be looking through imo, you have a choice to change your mind and leave the world or not, and "seek your own salvation" is not an empty taunt. Neither is the command to be perfect. Even if, yes, it must be sought.

This "people are worthless" characterization is not accurate imo. It is not what you would quote is saying or implying.
Yeah but..... her/ our views are actually backed up by Scripture.
 

Mjh29

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so then people who find life in Christ are not depraved, yes?
We are still sinners, however, our eyes have been opened to the truth of God, and we don't relish our sins as the non- believers do, but we are grieved when we sin against our beloved Savior
 
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Abiding Grace

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that is a terrible lens to be looking through imo, you have a choice to change your mind and leave the world or not, and "seek your own salvation" is not an empty taunt. Neither is the command to be perfect. Even if, yes, it must be sought.

This "people are worthless" characterization is not accurate imo. It is not what you would quote is saying or implying. God needs no help in manifesting the kingdom, now that i agree with. my cool ideas are not relevant, yes, as compared to God's they are going to be like "let's have a bazaar for Jesus" or whatever lol. Rags. I would be mucking up the works when i insert my female, soul, ego, into the mix. But not worthless, sorry.

My foundation is based upon what the scriptures teach. I'm sorry if you find that to be wrong or not accurate. Again, it's what the Bible teaches. It doesn't mean that man can't do anything right, but their inclination is to serve themselves first.

God does things for his own glory. That is part of His purpose. The saved have been chosen before the foundation of the world. To those who object, I offer these scriptures:

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles


What Calvinists believe is straight from the Word of God.

God Bless.
 
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Mjh29

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I'm not completely clear on what this means as well. I think we have shown that there is no free will unto salvation.
Indeed. Only through Christ changing our hearts can we acknowledge the truth.
 
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Mjh29

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Faith, Grace and repentance are all gifts. It doesn't come from anything we can do or say.


God Bless!
I loved this! It made me laugh a little at some of the expressions they made, but very solid answer! Awesome!
 

Mjh29

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My foundation is based upon what the scriptures teach. I'm sorry if you find that to be wrong or not accurate. Again, it's what the Bible teaches. It doesn't mean that man can't do anything right, but their inclination is to serve themselves first.

God does things for his own glory. That is part of His purpose. The saved have been chosen before the foundation of the world. To those who object, I offer these scriptures:

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles


What Calvinists believe is straight from the Word of God.

God Bless.
This is absolutely what I have been saying! Total Agreement here! Now I suppose the only remaining question is do we really believe the Bible is the infallible word of God?
 
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Abiding Grace

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This is absolutely what I have been saying! Total Agreement here! Now I suppose the only remaining question is do we really believe the Bible is the infallible word of God?

I hold to the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy. http://library.dts.edu/Pages/TL/Special/ICBI_1.pdf

It does indeed mean that the Bible in any LEGITIMATE translation is the infallible word of God.
 
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Mjh29

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I hold to the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy. http://library.dts.edu/Pages/TL/Special/ICBI_1.pdf

It does indeed mean that the Bible in any LEGITIMATE translation is the infallible word of God.
Awesome! It does get hard to debate people without a proper view of Scripture, right? When you try to show them CLEAR Scripture, if they dont believe the Bible to be infallible, it just falls on deaf ears. But im glad to see someone else who holds Scripture as highly as I do!
 

bbyrd009

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This is absolutely what I have been saying! Total Agreement here! Now I suppose the only remaining question is do we really believe the Bible is the infallible word of God?
no, the Bible is not the Word of God, and will even tell you as much, plainly, in many places, with all due respect. The Word of God is hidden in plain sight, and you have to seek It.

In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God...

might get you started?
 

Mjh29

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no, the Bible is not the Word of God, and will even tell you as much, plainly, in many places, with all due respect. The Word of God is hidden in plain sight, and you have to seek It.

In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God...

might get you started?
no, the Bible is not the Word of God, and will even tell you as much, plainly, in many places, with all due respect. The Word of God is hidden in plain sight, and you have to seek It.

In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God...

might get you started?

..... ooookaaaay...? So what is morality?