Gabriel’s message to Daniel is extremely relevant

[Dave Watchman]

Really? -- Life has STOPPED, never to re-start? And I suppose KNOWLEDGE is no longer INCREASING.

Thank you for your candor.

The running to and fro part, I think, has stopped. As far as air travel? I wouldn't mind if the hardware stores and the Canadian Tire opened up one more time in my area. My kitchen faucet is leaking like a sieve. Amazon is taking forever now.

But the hey day of global air travel looks like you can stick a fork in it.

Then I guess we all need to kill ourselves, -- we'll maybe everyone else --; but I'm working to survive until the day when Jesus returns, which is in about a year and a half. But you'll be DEAD so what difference is it to you?!?

Oh to be DEAD.

To be absent of the body, is to be present with the Lord.

Are you worried about it Bobby Jo?

Where do you get the year and a half from?

I was looking at the summer of 2022 for the possible Return.

That would be half way through the last heptad measured from the "darkened sun.

I think we're IN the "coming" of the Son of Man, the last heptad has began.

If someone said: "I'm coming", they're not here yet, but on their way.

The "coming" is a parade of apocalyptic events, which I think has started.

Jesus said that it would be just like the day that Lot left out from Sodom, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

I DON'T think fire fell from the sky in the full view of men yet, but I do think that we are already in the signs that the dragon is given the power to do on behalf of the composite beast, so it is spooky to talk about.

Even if we are right about a year and a half, or the summer of 2022, anything could happen at any time. Each time we go to the store could be the last. It could all happen very fast and we'll be watching the vials from the air.

But I think this COVID is going to accomplish what it is set out to do first. It might even mutate itself to extinction and the new cases disappear.

Just like a thunderstorm that blows over.

And the people will breathe a sigh of relief.

I can go to get a new faucet.

People will be saying peace and safety.

Then sudden destruction falls from the sky in the full view of men.

I think we're close.

Stay safe.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Bobby Jo]

As far as air travel?

Not just air travel, -- you can only walk. Or so YOU might assert. But as for the rest of us, we will still be able to travel some 60 to 600 mph, BECAUSE THE ANGEL SAID SO.

Where do you get the year and a half from?

Scripture! Do you not know Scripture?

1 Thess. 5 says only the world will be caught by surprise. Are YOU part of the world, or will you KNOW because you're a child of GOD? And if a child of GOD, then would you rather be part of the world instead?


Bobby Jo

 

[Stranger]

Yes, some people actually do that, although it becomes very awkward to do it that way. The prophecy actually begins with a restoration of the OT temple and with the restoration of ancient Jerusalem. To count 70 Weeks of years from Cyrus and Artaxerxes to 2020 AD plus is more than awkward to me personally!

That doesn't matter. It is still interpreting in a 'sequential' way.

Why is it awkward?

Stranger

 

[Bobby Jo]

... It is still interpreting in a 'sequential' way. ...

"Sequential"/UNSCRIPTURAL. -- Who cares?!?

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

Re-Post:

To All,

For those confused regarding the 9th Chapter of Daniel, -- please allow the following for your consideration:

“... Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all.”[1]

[1] John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217​

... and ...

“This prophesy of the seventy sevens is one of the most difficult in the entire OT, and although the interpretations are almost legion, we shall confine ourselves to the discussion of three which may be regarded as of particular importance.”[1]

Note: According to the dictionary[2] a legion consists of 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers, and 300 to 700 cavalry.

[1] Guthrie, D., & J.A. Motyer, New Bible Commentary: Revised, Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, MI, 1970, p. 699
[2] Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary - 2nd ed, p. 1035​

And to further challenge the commonly accepted interpretation, in the book “The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English,”[1] the author augments Montgomery’s lack of literal fulfillment by providing chronology prefixed upon the Damascus Document which yields a faulty conclusion of 490 years (a 20 year “grope;” an additional 40 years after the Messiah’s death; and 40 year instead of 30 year Messianic ministry; = error).

“...the Book of Daniel, where a period of seventy weeks of years, i.e. 490 years, is given as separating the epoch of Nebuchadnezzar from that of the Messiah. As it happens, if to this figure of 390 years [Damascus Document] is added, firstly twenty (during which the ancestors of the Community ‘groped’ for their way until the entry on the scene of the Teacher of Righteousness), then another forty (the time span between the death of the Teacher and the dawn of the messianic epoch), the total stretch of years arrived at is 450. And if to this total is added the duration of the Teacher’s ministry of, say, forty years - a customary round figure - the final result is the classic seventy times seven years.”

[1] Geza Vermes, The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English, Penguin Putnam Inc., NY, 1997, p. 58​

And of course, Montgomery goes on to call the 9th Chapter of Daniel "the dismal swamp of OT prophecy", which is analogous to the movie "The Princess Bride" where everyone who ventures into the "fire swamp" goes in, but never comes out.


It would seem to me that if the purported (and FALSE) duration was 490 years then EVERYONE WOULD AGREE. But when the chronographers, the Scholars, and even the Commentators ALL DISAGREE on ANY SINGLE INTERPRETATION, -- could it be that there IS NO ANCIENT INTERPRETATION, and they should have obeyed the angel's instructions in 12:4 & 9?

Ya think?
Bobby Jo

 

[Randy Kluth]

That doesn't matter. It is still interpreting in a 'sequential' way.

Why is it awkward?

Stranger

490 years, minus 3.5 years does not fit between 457 BC and 2020+ AD. If it was sequential, each year would have to actually be 5 years, and a "Week" would represent 35 years.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Re-Post:

To All,

For those confused regarding the 9th Chapter of Daniel, -- please allow the following for your consideration:

“... Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all.”[1]

[1] John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217​

... and ...

“This prophesy of the seventy sevens is one of the most difficult in the entire OT, and although the interpretations are almost legion, we shall confine ourselves to the discussion of three which may be regarded as of particular importance.”[1]

Note: According to the dictionary[2] a legion consists of 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers, and 300 to 700 cavalry.

[1] Guthrie, D., & J.A. Motyer, New Bible Commentary: Revised, Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, MI, 1970, p. 699
[2] Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary - 2nd ed, p. 1035​

And to further challenge the commonly accepted interpretation, in the book “The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English,”[1] the author augments Montgomery’s lack of literal fulfillment by providing chronology prefixed upon the Damascus Document which yields a faulty conclusion of 490 years (a 20 year “grope;” an additional 40 years after the Messiah’s death; and 40 year instead of 30 year Messianic ministry; = error).

“...the Book of Daniel, where a period of seventy weeks of years, i.e. 490 years, is given as separating the epoch of Nebuchadnezzar from that of the Messiah. As it happens, if to this figure of 390 years [Damascus Document] is added, firstly twenty (during which the ancestors of the Community ‘groped’ for their way until the entry on the scene of the Teacher of Righteousness), then another forty (the time span between the death of the Teacher and the dawn of the messianic epoch), the total stretch of years arrived at is 450. And if to this total is added the duration of the Teacher’s ministry of, say, forty years - a customary round figure - the final result is the classic seventy times seven years.”

[1] Geza Vermes, The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English, Penguin Putnam Inc., NY, 1997, p. 58​

And of course, Montgomery goes on to call the 9th Chapter of Daniel "the dismal swamp of OT prophecy", which is analogous to the movie "The Princess Bride" where everyone who ventures into the "fire swamp" goes in, but never comes out.


It would seem to me that if the purported (and FALSE) duration was 490 years then EVERYONE WOULD AGREE. But when the chronographers, the Scholars, and even the Commentators ALL DISAGREE on ANY SINGLE INTERPRETATION, -- could it be that there IS NO ANCIENT INTERPRETATION, and they should have obeyed the angel's instructions in 12:4 & 9?

Ya think?
Bobby Jo

It's not as convoluted as you claim. It is a difficult prophecy for many, but there was some consensus among the Church Fathers. They largely saw the prophecy as leading to the atonement of Christ, with the destruction of Jerusalem following. And some saw a clear relationship between the 70 Weeks Prophecy and the Olivet Discourse of Jesus. Both spoke of the desolation of Jerusalem, which would follow Jesus' death.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... there was some consensus among the Church Fathers. ...

Then why is there a "legion" of interpretations. If everything works as you pretend, then there should be ONE EASILY DISCERNIBLE and HISTORICAL INTERPRETATION.

So which is it? Did Daniel "perceive" the "seventy years" in a DIFFERENT O.T.Book? And does that Book provide the "going forth of the Word" DIRECTLY FROM GOD for the era approximate to 1948 as the angel instructs? And are there a combination of "year(s)" and "week(s)" as Young, Keil, & Kliefoth appear to discern. And are there TWO "anointed ones", where Jesus had an older "brother"?

You have unsubstantiated assertions which defy both Scripture and History, but remain unpersuaded in spite of the EVIDENCE.


Let me suggest that you are apparently content in your dishonesty, -- otherwise you'd find where GOD calls the ANCIENT ruins to be restored and rebuilt. -- And you're not alone in your circumstance, for there are MANY other cowards who can't stand the LIGHT and TRUTH of Scripture.

Whew,
Bobby Jo

 

[Randy Kluth]

You make absolute FALSE accusations? Really? And you think you're a Christian?

So when you go for a ride in a "cool" car, feel free to grab a hat, coat, gloves, and scarf, -- because "slang" is the same as the literal, just as Masculine is the same as Feminine -- per YOU.

Now Young, (who you just slandered), also observed ( -- which you have no clue -- ) regarding the "going forth of the word":

“[Per Young] This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God. Young goes on to point out that the expression the commandment, which he insists is better translated “a word” (Heb. Dābār; cf. 2Ch 30:5) is also found is Daniel 9:23 for a word from God.”[1]

[1] John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 224​

So we should find somewhere in Scripture where GOD EXPLICITLY COMMANDS that in the era approximate to 1948 that the ancient land of Israel should be rebuilt. And according to the 9:2 "perceived"/"biyn" and the 1 Kings 3 interchange, -- GOD asks Solomon what HE should give him. And Solomon, being humble asked for the SIMPLE "wisdom"/"shama", analogous to reading the daily weather forecast in the newspaper. And GOD said HE'd give him what he asked for, "biyn" (not "shama"), such that no man before him and no man after him shall have such "biyn" (Solomon Wisdom).

Thus Daniel did not "shama" the "books", meaning the 25th Chapter of Jeremiah, but rather used "biyn" (Solomon wisdom") to "perceive" the "seventy years" in a different book. So I ask you, where in the O.T. Scriptures do you find where GOD EXPLICITLY COMMANDS that the ANCIENT ruins of Jerusalem be rebuilt?

Bobby Jo

I know I'm a Christian. If you don't know that, it indicates to me how poor your judgment is. Just citing "Young" as a scholar in no way settles an argument. That also is poor logic.

Cyrus made a decree to restore Jerusalem and its temple. Persian kings, following after him, tried to apply that decree, making decrees to follow up.

1st the temple was built under Darius, and then, under Artaxerxes the city of Jerusalem, with its walls, was built.

I date the decree from 457 BC, which began a reform of the temple worship (7 years into the reign of Artaxerxes L.). But it led to Nehemiah's building of the city walls.

Artaxerxes L. apparently made another decree in 444 BC (20 years into the reign of Artaxerxes L.). Within 49 years I think the superstructure of the city and dwellings was complete.

 

[Stranger]

490 years, minus 3.5 years does not fit between 457 BC and 2020+ AD. If it was sequential, each year would have to actually be 5 years, and a "Week" would represent 35 years.

It is 490 minus 7. It is sequential because it follows. That there is a gap of time between the 493 and the final 7 years is immaterial to it being sequential.

Stranger

 

[Bobby Jo]

I know I'm a Christian. If you don't know that, it indicates to me how poor your judgment is. ...

"Poor Judgement"? YOU ignore the angel's 12:4 & 9 guidance; ignore THREE Scholars "Masculine" textual observation; ignore Young's "word" observation; ignore the 9:2 "biyn" as though it were "shama"; ignore the TWO "anointed ones"; and ignore History. -- And I"M the IDIOT?!?

Zechariah learned his lesson the hard way, and YOU'RE ten times as dense.


Christians are supposed to OBEY GOD, not just sit in a pew listening to their WIFE*.
-- *Thanks to Eve, women are subjugated to hearing from their husband, but Adam hears from GOD. And any man who hears from another man is a WOMAN. Grow up, be a MAN, and hear from GOD
Bobby Jo

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is 490 minus 7. It is sequential because it follows. That there is a gap of time between the 493 and the final 7 years is immaterial to it being sequential.

Stranger

I'm not playing word games. It is a cohesive unit, a single period. When that period is spread out all over the place, by random stops and gaps, it ceases to be a "period." A "sequence" by any other name....

 

[Bobby Jo]

I'm not playing word games. It is a cohesive unit, a single period. When that period is spread out all over the place, by random stops and gaps, it ceases to be a "period." A "sequence" by any other name....

... three men short of identifying what an "elephant" is ...


Bobby Jo

 

[Randy Kluth]

... three men short of identifying what an "elephant" is ...


Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

Let me remind EVERYONE that when I said that the the commentators are LIARS, -- you questioned my Christianity.

And when I PROVED that the commentators are LIARS, -- are you questioning your own Christianity?


Yeah, not. -- You're like so many "christians" who don't have a mirror,
Bobby Jo

 

[Randy Kluth]

Let me remind EVERYONE that when I said that the the commentators are LIARS, -- you questioned my Christianity.

And when I PROVED that the commentators are LIARS, -- are you questioning your own Christianity?


Yeah, not. -- You're like to many "christians" who don't have a mirror,
Bobby Jo

I question someone's *quality* of Christianity if they prove they do not love their brothers and sisters in Christ.

1 John 4.7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love....
19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

I would much rather focus on the issues. But if hate for Christian sources prevents proper referencing, than a person's "Christianity" must be referenced!

 

[Bobby Jo]

I question someone's *quality* of Christianity if they prove they do not love their brothers and sisters in Christ. ...

What a load of barnyard. Jesus REBUKED his Disciples. Paul REBUKED Peter -- a DISCIPLE.

2 Tim. 4:2 preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.​

OBEY GOD, not men.
Bobby Jo

 

[Randy Kluth]

"Poor Judgement"? YOU ignore the angel's 12:4 & 9 guidance; ignore THREE Scholars "Masculine" textual observation; ignore Young's "word" observation; ignore the 9:2 "biyn" as though it were "shama"; ignore the TWO "anointed ones"; and ignore History. -- And I"M the IDIOT?!?

Zechariah learned his lesson the hard way, and YOU'RE ten times as dense.


Christians are supposed to OBEY GOD, not just sit in a pew listening to their WIFE*.
-- *Thanks to Eve, women are subjugated to hearing from their husband, but Adam hears from GOD. And any man who hears from another man is a WOMAN. Grow up, be a MAN, and hear from GOD
Bobby Jo

No, I'm not ignoring the evidence. Just accepting the claim that masculine or feminine forms of a word proves a point falls short of what I feel is "proof" of anything, particularly when you measure this one view against the vast majority of scholars who *do not find this significant!*

So are you *ignoring* the world, which claims the world is round?

 

[Bobby Jo]

No, I'm not ignoring the evidence. ...

You ARE as my favorite Aunt used to tease when she said: My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts.


So go your own way, and pay whatever penalty you'll receive for your disobedience.
Bobby Jo

 

[Randy Kluth]

What a load of barnyard. Jesus REBUKED his Disciples. Paul REBUKED Peter -- a DISCIPLE.

2 Tim. 4:2 preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.​

OBEY GOD, not men.
Bobby Jo

You dare to compare your insulting manner with Jesus' righteous indignation? Shame on you! Repent, and become like Jesus, who loved his people.

You are referring to the opinions of a few scholars, against the weight of evidence of very many more scholars who do not find the argument significant or relevant enough to consider it.

The fact your argument relies upon something so sketchy indicates there is very little real evidence from the biblical language itself.

Try to argue the language itself, rather than rely on the fine points of scholars who are in the area of *speculation!*