God’s grace, plus the believer’s part: enduring faith, works, obedience!

[ATP]

No, the totality of scripture says that we attain eternal life when Jesus returns.

No Stan, eternal life is obtained now as we accept His free gift of salvation. I write these things to you who believe...

1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

The Good Shepherd knows all His sheep by name, and He will not lose one within His flock. This is His promise to all who believe. Do you believe?

Unbelief will increase as we approach the latter days. Can we pray?

 

[StanJ]

Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things-things that belong to salvation. - Hebrews 6:9
This most overlooked section of Hebrews 6 I would like to bring to our attention.
The anonymous author has just given the dreaded section concerning for it is impossible in the case of...
The assumption is always they are believers that had salvation then lose it. Yet here in 6:9 it said "we feel sure of better things-things that belong to salvation."
So I question, was the veiled subject in the previous section ever about losing salvation? Did these in the previous section ever have salvation to begin with? Why is it the author makes the point to verify distinctly the confidence of salvation for his/her audience? Could this previous section be the non-believing Jews that were present at Jesus' incarnation? Is it these who have rejected their messiah have no further chance for salvation?
Remember this epistle is written to Jews to strengthen their confidence in the New Covenant.
Now re-read this section with this in mind. Notice how the author mentions the land (nation). Remember the punishment of 70 AD. Remember the triumphant entry of the Christ where He was greeted Hosannah! Remember the crowds that later cried out crucify Him. Remember how they all went out to be baptized by John the Baptist during his ministry: "Repent!" They were witnesses to the Light of the world. The Bread from heaven shared Himself with them. The true tabernacle of God was with them giving signs and wonders.
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. - Hebrews 6:4-8
Some did drink the rain of Christ, tasted of His goodness, and have chosen to believe. Now they have become children of God awaiting a new and better home. Others drank the reign of Christ only to bear thistles and thorns. Their temple was burned and destroyed, the city razed, and they were dispersed throughout the nations. Jesus' prophecy rang true, not one stone will be left. I see no remenant of the old temple today.
The Good Shepherd knows all His sheep by name, and He will not lose one within His flock. This is His promise to all who believe. Do you believe?

Totally different issue, and sadly you misrepresent with verse 9 does say.
Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.

Luke is depicting real-life characters that have attained and fallen away, the wording is clear and your equivocation about v 9 doesn't help matters here whatsoever but just tends to polarize. Again you assume that the author's knowledge of the people he is directing his written words to is setting a precedent for all others to follow when in fact it is just stating what he already knows about those people. Exhorting people is just that, it is not setting a precedent. Being convinced about God's work in certain people's lives just as Paul was with the people he ministered to, does not mean that Luke is teaching what you purport above. Luke said HAVE, 5 time in v4-6. It means exactly that, they were real believers. Seems even when the Bible tells you something you try to twist it around to make it fit into your doctrine, rather than accept what it actually says? Again, eisegesis being the norm for you in this subject.

 

[StanJ]

No Stan, eternal life is obtained now as we accept His free gift of salvation. I write these things to you who believe...

Effectually, NOT effectively. As usual you fail to address issues that I bring up such as Hebrews 9:27. If you have eternal life ATP then why are you going to die? We can only have eternal life when Jesus returns and makes us immortal which is what Paul teaches in 1st Corinthians 15:52. Ignoring that fact is not going to help your cause but it's just going to support people's perceptions that you are blind to the truth of the scriptures.

 

[ATP]

Effectually, NOT effectively. As usual you fail to address issues that I bring up such as Hebrews 9:27. If you have eternal life ATP then why are you going to die? We can only have eternal life when Jesus returns and makes us immortal which is what Paul teaches in 1st Corinthians 15:52. Ignoring that fact is not going to help your cause but it's just going to support people's perceptions that you are blind to the truth of the scriptures.

No Stan. The promise of eternal life is granted now. That promise will be revealed at first resurrection. Do you believe Stan?

Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

 

[StanJ]

No Stan. The promise of eternal life is granted now. That promise will be revealed at first resurrection. Do you believe Stan?

Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.

Yes, the promise of, not actual eternal life residing in our bodies. Again you're just equivocating or striving about words, you don't seem to be getting the point, or you're refusing to?

My post said Hebrews 9:27 ATP not 9:12. Oh and BTW, redemption is not the same as salvation. Christianity 101.

 

[ATP]

They have fallen from there because they have no root or because of persecution or because they have decided that the price is too high.

How do believers abandon their faith when the root, seed and truth is in them forever?

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV / Psalm 106:1 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Salvation is a free gift but the process of sanctification is not an easy walk.

Salvation is a free gift, period. If you're adding to it then it is no longer a gift Angelina. Jesus dying for our sins is the gift.

Rom 6:23 NIV For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[ATP]

Yes, the promise of, not actual eternal life residing in our bodies. Again you're just equivocating or striving about words, you don't seem to be getting the point, or you're refusing to?

My post said Hebrews 9:27 ATP not 9:12. Oh and BTW, redemption is not the same as salvation. Christianity 101.

And that promise comes through believing Stan.

 

[StanJ]

And that promise comes through believing Stan.

Believing and confessing ATP as I just said in another thread.

Now how about Hebrews 9:27?

 

[ATP]

Believing and confessing ATP as I just said in another thread.

Now how about Hebrews 9:27?

So how does a believer lose eternal life when he already has it? Is it not God's promise to us?

 

[StanJ]

How do believers abandon their faith when the root, seed and truth is in them forever?
Salvation is a free gift, period. If you're adding to it then it is no longer a gift Angelina. Jesus dying for our sins is the gift.
Rom 6:23 NIV For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Well you haven't proven that the root, seed and truth is in them forever, you just miss represent the vs that you use. Please quote a verse that actually says what you just said here.
Yes that is correct...' in Christ Jesus our Lord', so if we're not in Christ Jesus our lord when he returns then we don't get the gift.

 

[StanJ]

So how does a believer lose eternal life when he already has it? Is it not God's promise to us?

He doesn't, which you just admitted to and another thread. He has the promise thereof, not the actual 'eternal life'.
Why do you persist on equivocating about this matter when you've already admitted to it?

 

[ATP]

Well you haven't proven that the root, seed and truth is in them forever, you just miss represent the vs that you use. Please quote a verse that actually says what you just said here.
Yes that is correct...' in Christ Jesus our Lord', so if we're not in Christ Jesus our lord when he returns then we don't get the gift.

My faith is the proof Stan. My faith isn't dependent on whether you believe me. God knows who his children are Stan.

 

[StanJ]

My faith is the proof Stan. My faith isn't dependent on whether you believe me. God knows who his children are Stan.

So your faith is contradictory to what the Bible says? Is that similar to what the Mormons say when they say 'I feel the burning in my bosom'?
Convincing yourself set a contradiction to God's word is true, is not Faith, it's called inculcation.

 

[ATP]

So your faith is contradictory to what the Bible says? Is that similar to what the Mormons say when they say 'I feel the burning in my bosom'?
Convincing yourself set a contradiction to God's word is true, is not Faith, it's called inculcation.

I don't have to convince myself Stan. That is my point. I know I am God's through my faith. I know I have the promise of eternal life by God's grace and through my faith. - ATP

 

[StanJ]

I don't have to convince myself Stan. That is my point. I know I am God's through my faith. I know I have the promise of eternal life by God's grace and through my faith. - ATP

How did you arrive at this conclusion if you can't arrive at a proper understanding of what the scriptures say on OSAS?

 

[ATP]

How did you arrive at this conclusion if you can't arrive at a proper understanding of what the scriptures say on OSAS?

The Word of God says once we believe we have eternal life, so...I understand fine.

 

[StanJ]

The Word of God says once we believe we have eternal life, so...I understand fine.

No it doesn't, cuz we have the promise of eternal life which you've already agreed to so now you're changing your point of view again. You know what the Bible says about people being of two minds?

 

[justaname]

Totally different issue, and sadly you misrepresent with verse 9 does say.
Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.

Luke is depicting real-life characters that have attained and fallen away, the wording is clear and your equivocation about v 9 doesn't help matters here whatsoever but just tends to polarize. Again you assume that the author's knowledge of the people he is directing his written words to is setting a precedent for all others to follow when in fact it is just stating what he already knows about those people. Exhorting people is just that, it is not setting a precedent. Being convinced about God's work in certain people's lives just as Paul was with the people he ministered to, does not mean that Luke is teaching what you purport above. Luke said HAVE, 5 time in v4-6. It means exactly that, they were real believers. Seems even when the Bible tells you something you try to twist it around to make it fit into your doctrine, rather than accept what it actually says? Again, eisegesis being the norm for you in this subject.

Show me one place where it is said these people were "believers" without your inference.

Show me one place where the text says these were individuals that have "attained" without your added interpretation.

I did not misrepresent anything. Your false accusations are disheartening. I never once even hinted the author was setting a precedence. It is your desire to hold to your doctrine that brings you to such a conclusion. My friend you are wearing eisegetical and dogmatic glasses here.

 

[StanJ]

Show me one place where it is said these people were "believers" without your inference.
Show me one place where the text says these were individuals that have "attained" without your added interpretation.
I did not misrepresent anything. Your false accusations are disheartening. I never once even hinted the author was setting a precedence. It is your desire to hold to your doctrine that brings you to such a conclusion. My friend you are wearing eisegetical and dogmatic glasses here.

Most places in the New Testament where it uses believers, it refers to born-again believers. If you don't agree with this then you have much more of a problem than just Hebrews 6:4-6.
What's another word for attained? That word is used 5 times in vs 4-6.
Future dead as I've already pointed out and it's not a false accusation it's a fact just look at what I said. No you may not have hinted that the author is setting a precedent but you're acting as if you did and that's pretty much the same thing. Your words show what you're thinking or don't you get that? I would suggest you stop using the same words I use in your accusations, because you can't prove it, haven't been able to, and just shows you don't really have much original thinking on your part. All your arguments are typical of those who try to defend this fallacious RT Doctrine. I've seen it many many many many times.

 

[ATP]

No it doesn't, cuz we have the promise of eternal life which you've already agreed to so now you're changing your point of view again. You know what the Bible says about people being of two minds?

John 3:14-16 NIV Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 NIV For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 6:54 NIV Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 10:25-30 NIV / Prov 1:33 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Acts 13:46-48 NIV Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Tit 1:1-3 NIV Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

1 John 5:9-14 NIV / Psa 21:4 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.