God’s grace, plus the believer’s part: enduring faith, works, obedience!

[justaname]

And again I ask you why did God create Adam and Eve when he knew they would rebel and sin? Why did God give the people of Israel the old Covenant when he knew it would not work? Now if you can answer these two questions reasonably then we can pursue this issue further. If you simply dismiss them as not being relative then you're basically saying that you don't know and therefore all arguments that you've made up to this point are null and void.

Because God's plan was always the world reconciled through Christ all to His glory.

 

[StanJ]

Because God's plan was always the world reconciled through Christ.

That's a given but you're avoiding the question that you yourself constructed.
Why does God do anything if He knows the outcome?
Do you actually believe that God made a mistake and created Adam and Eve?
Do you believe that Jesus was a secondary plan?
Do you believe that God's Plan of Salvation was reactionary to Adam and Eve failing?

You brought up this issue so how about either justifying it or admitting that it wasn't a good point?

 

[justaname]

In my opinion, much of the problem here is the definition of salvation. Salvation is a person, not primarily an event. Jesus told Mary and Martha, "I am the resurrection and the life." The resurrection is not merely an event, but a person. The same is true of salvation. A person can "lose" salvation if they disown and abandon Jesus Christ, because Christ is salvation. So it is not as though God gives someone a golden ticket to heaven and then takes that ticket away from them. Rather, a person comes to faith and relationship with Jesus Christ but then if they deny and disown the Savior, then they are disowning the one who has the power to save them...thus their salvation. Also, it is important to note that this is not something God "takes" from the person but something they "give up," not by lack of good deeds, but by turning from faith.

We are called to grow in and contend for the faith. Our faith is a shield that protects us from the fiery arrows of the enemy. But if we cast our faith aside and reject the one who has the power to save us, then we are the ones who put ourselves in the dangerous position of being judged by spurning grace and the Spirit that we have received.

I must say I do like this, yet the Bible does also present the event of the resurrection and the event of salvation for the individual. Rather than the "either or" we must consider the "both and" in this discussion.

 

[justaname]

That's a given but you're avoiding the question that you yourself constructed.
Why does God do anything if He knows the outcome?
Do you actually believe that God made a mistake and created Adam and Eve?
Do you believe that Jesus was a secondary plan?
Do you believe that God's Plan of Salvation was reactionary to Adam and Eve failing?

You brought up this issue so how about either justifying it or admitting that it wasn't a good point?

Stan you asked a simple question that was simply answered. Some more answers for you...

"Why does God do anything if He knows the outcome?" Because everything He does is to His glory. Would you have no creation at all?
"Do you actually believe that God made a mistake and created Adam and Eve?" No. Again God created Adam and Eve to His glory.
"Do you believe that Jesus was a secondary plan?" No. I am unsure how you came to this question after my initial answer...Because God's plan was always the world reconciled through Christ all to His glory.
"Do you believe that God's Plan of Salvation was reactionary to Adam and Eve failing?" No. I am unsure how you came to this question after my initial answer...Because God's plan was always the world reconciled through Christ all to His glory.


Now as to the point it is completely valid. Simply because you do not accept it is of no effect.

That may have been your perspective on our discussions, but I have always made it clear that apostasy is not the same as losing salvation. Why people of your ilk continue to equivocate between the two is beyond me. The fact that you are confused might say something about your lack of receptiveness to the truth of what the Bible teaches. I don't surmise anything, the Bible says that they were saved and then they fell away. Paul states, as I've shown already, that there will be a great Falling Away. What exactly do you think apostasy is? Do you believe that people who become apostate are still saved? Because that's not what Hebrews teaches and that's not what Paul teaches in a lot of his letters. Of course you would say they never had salvation but that's not what the Bible teaches. It's also not what Jesus taught in Luke 8:13. I think you really need to study Romans 11:17-24 and SEE, especially in verse 8 where Paul states;
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.


No, and I never said all had the potential for salvation. Peter does say that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to eternal life.
Now because God wills this, do you think he's being unreasonable for wanting that even though he knows that not all will? You really need to stop reading the Bible through your dogmatic POV and read it for what it says. You insinuate and equivocate a lot but you don't identify the real issue you just deflect. I don't claim to know people's hearts other than what the Bible tells me is indicative of their hearts. Paul says if we confess Jesus we're saved. Jesus said those that confessed/accepted the gospel were saved. Luke says that those who were saved and Fall Away will find it impossible to renew themselves again unto repentance. If you continue to avoid the scriptures that clearly indicate what is what, then you will never understand the issue.

The Bible says whosoever will. You either believe that or you don't. I personally believe it and accept it.

Stan you are equivocating here.

Your quote, "The Bible does not teach that we can lose our salvation other than by falling into apostasy,"
Your equivocation, "but I have always made it clear that apostasy is not the same as losing salvation."

Which is it? Lets simply start here if you desire a clear discussion.

 

[StanJ]

Stan you asked a simple question that was simply answered.

Yes simple but not relevant. I expect when I ask a simple question in response to a statement I will get a relative pertinent answer. Yours was not pertinent.

"Why does God do anything if He knows the outcome?" Because everything He does is to His glory. Would you have no creation at all?
"Do you actually believe that God made a mistake and created Adam and Eve?" No. Again God created Adam and Eve to His glory.[/size]
"[/size]Do you believe that Jesus was a secondary plan?" No. I am unsure how you came to this question after my initial answer...[/size]Because God's plan was always the world reconciled through Christ all to His glory.[/size]
"[/size]Do you believe that God's Plan of Salvation was reactionary to Adam and Eve failing?" [/size]No. I am unsure how you came to this question after my initial answer...[/size]Because God's plan was always the world reconciled through Christ all to His glory.[/size]

Again none of these are relevant or pertinent to my simple questions. No wonder I can't carry on a conversation with you because you refuse to deal directly with simple issues.

Stan you are equivocating here.
Your quote, "The Bible does not teach that we can lose our salvation other than by falling into apostasy,"[/size]
Your equivocation, "[/size]but I have always made it clear that apostasy is not the same as losing salvation."[/size]
Which is it? Lets simply start here if [/size]you desire a clear discussion.

And yet you fail to actually point out what the exact equivocation is and address it? So then you deflect with an accusation but supply no answer.
That hasn't really worked for you know has it?

Is an apostate person still saved?

 

[justaname]

Yes simple but not relevant. I expect when I ask a simple question in response to a statement I will get a relative pertinent answer. Yours was not pertinent.


Again none of these are relevant or pertinent to my simple questions. No wonder I can't carry on a conversation with you because you refuse to deal directly with simple issues.


And yet you fail to actually point out what the exact equivocation is and address it? So then you deflect with an accusation but supply no answer.
That hasn't really worked for you know has it?

Is an apostate person still saved?

Are you stating God's glory is not relative or pertinent to His reasons for creation?

Your quote, "The Bible does not teach that we can lose our salvation other than by falling into apostasy,"
Here it is assessed that you believe the Bible teaches we can lose salvation by falling into apostasy.

Your equivocation, "but I have always made it clear that apostasy is not the same as losing salvation."
Here you assert losing your salvation is not the same as apostasy.

Earlier in this thread you said "I see nothing in the New Testament that warns about losing salvation."
What about apostasy which you believe results in loss of salvation?

The only thing I see being communicated here is the action is not equivalent to the result. What is your reasoning for communicating this and how does this relate to the discussion?

To answer your final question, an apostate person was never saved and was never going to be saved. The apostate is apostate from the Church, not salvation. The Church does not give salvation, God does.

Your quote, "I don't surmise anything, the Bible says that they were saved and then they fell away."
Where exactly does the Bible use language that specifically states without inference, some were saved then fell away?

 

[justaname]

2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Verse 3 really speaks to this issue. He calls His own sheep by name. He Himself leads them out. No other sheep follow Him but those who are His. If you have ever seen where different sheep are penned you might understand this parable. Imagine multiple sheep with different owners all in one fenced area. The door keeper opens the gate for the shepherd to go in, and the shepherd calls out every last one of his sheep by name (because he can recognize each one of them and has named them all), and all the sheep follow this shepherd because they recognize him.

Verse 4 is just as beautiful. Once all His sheep have been accounted for, He goes ahead of them, and they follow Him.

Jesus goes on to say:
14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

Further affirmation pointing to Jesus' knowledge of all those that are His. Not only that but His know Him. We know that these that know Him will not follow another. They are of His fold and will only follow Him.

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 “I and the Father are one.”

Jesus does not fail in this promise. The Father does not fail in this promise. These spoken of here are the only ones to have salvation. These are the only ones who are saved. God stands at the consummation of all things, and only the saints with Him are those possessing salvation. Salvation can not be gained then lost. There are no sheep that begin to follow then Jesus just lets them go astray. Jesus is the Good Shepherd and does not lose one of His flock!

How then do I explain apostasy?

All the sheep are in one pen. Wheat are sown with tares. Some draw near yet never come to an effectual faith, rather they only wrestle with the idea. Their faith is in vain. What might be an outward confession never becomes an inward submission of trust, faith, belief. These in the beginning look similar to the wheat, yet as the harvest grows near they reveal themselves to be tares in their apostasy. God does not intend to save these ever. He has no commitment to those who are not truly committed to Him, rather only to those He knows by name.

 

[Wormwood]

I must say I do like this, yet the Bible does also present the event of the resurrection and the event of salvation for the individual. Rather than the "either or" we must consider the "both and" in this discussion.

I agree. There is an event of salvation and Jesus is salvation. When I come to know Jesus, I come to know my Savior and salvation (and that salvation will be realized on the Day of the Lord when judgment falls). When I am "in Christ" and he is in me, I am saved. As Paul puts it, "Christ in you, the hope of glory." When I am baptized "in Christ" I become part of the body of Christ and thus I am part of the one who is salvation. In my view, holiness is not something given to us as a possession. Christ is holy and when I am in Christ, I am made holy by virtue of my connection with him. If I sever myself from Christ, I sever myself from that which is holy and my salvation. Jesus uses the illustration of a vine and branches. The branch is alive by virtue of its connection to the vine. If the branch is cut off, then it dies and becomes useless. My salvation and life is found "in Christ" and apart from Christ I can do nothing and I am nothing. Christ alone is my hope and my salvation. I am alive through my connection to him, but ONLY through my connection to him. If I deny him and reject the Savior who bought me, I turn from my personal salvation as well...as the two are connected. Thus, salvation is personal and an event, but that event is through the connection I have with the Son of God.

I hope that makes sense. Perhaps a bit of rambling

 

[Angelina]

Yes, but the new and better (new) covenant IS such
because of the precious indwelling Holy Spirit,
whose job it is to bring us home.
But, we can reject what Jesus has done
and what the Holy Spirit is trying to do!
However, most believers today think that
He is just trying to get us to merit rewards!

The Holy Spirit teaches us about Jesus. He is our helper and supplier of truth and yes we can reject what is being presented us to our detriment and possible, destruction...

 

[justaname]

I agree. There is an event of salvation and Jesus is salvation. When I come to know Jesus, I come to know my Savior and salvation (and that salvation will be realized on the Day of the Lord when judgment falls). When I am "in Christ" and he is in me, I am saved. As Paul puts it, "Christ in you, the hope of glory." When I am baptized "in Christ" I become part of the body of Christ and thus I am part of the one who is salvation. In my view, holiness is not something given to us as a possession. Christ is holy and when I am in Christ, I am made holy by virtue of my connection with him. If I sever myself from Christ, I sever myself from that which is holy and my salvation. Jesus uses the illustration of a vine and branches. The branch is alive by virtue of its connection to the vine. If the branch is cut off, then it dies and becomes useless. My salvation and life is found "in Christ" and apart from Christ I can do nothing and I am nothing. Christ alone is my hope and my salvation. I am alive through my connection to him, but ONLY through my connection to him. If I deny him and reject the Savior who bought me, I turn from my personal salvation as well...as the two are connected. Thus, salvation is personal and an event, but that event is through the connection I have with the Son of God.

I hope that makes sense. Perhaps a bit of rambling

WW,

This makes complete sense. I would say this is the key statement where we agree: (and that salvation will be realized on the Day of the Lord when judgment falls). I also concede if we draw near to Jesus only to walk away permanently we forfeit any chance of salvation. It is not as if I do not comprehend the teaching of loss of salvation, rather I am not convinced this is what is being taught by the Bible. (Please don't take this statement the wrong way) What you present is completely understandable, yet I do not stand under it's teaching. The logic is sound, yet the presuppositions are not yet settled for me.

The term Paul uses, "in Christ" I see as reserved for only those who fulfill that commitment until the Day of the Lord. I am unaware of the Bible teaching of those in Christ ever separating from Him. As it is the Holy Spirit is given as a seal until the day of redemption.

Do those who fully submit to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord ever go into rebellion again? Those who do change their mind, were they ever fully submitted? Does Christ enter those He knows He will eventually leave, those He knows are not fully committed to Him?

Not that you need to answer these questions posed. I give them to cause us to think.

Perhaps you could look to post #87 though and comment on that.

 

[FHII]

Ooohh! :unsure: My old buddy Andyy was one of them. I miss the guy terribly! I didn't agree with some of his theo...well a lot of his beliefs but I liked him anyway.

I remember him! Great guy and I miss him too!

 

[Angelina]

It really is incredible how we have come from such diverse backgrounds,upbringing and denominations yet we have the same glue that sticks us all together and makes us a family here on earth ~ Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior of the world. One day I will see that old buddy of mine again but still his presence is certainly missed on this side of heaven. :unsure:

Bless ya!

 

[justaname]

It really is incredible how we have come from such diverse backgrounds,upbringing and denominations yet we have the same glue that sticks us all together and makes us a family here on earth ~ Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior of the world. One day I will see that old buddy of mine again but still his presence is certainly missed on this side of heaven. :unsure:

Bless ya!

I miss and love him too.

 

[Angelina]

I know you do justaname,
I wonder what he's doing right now. I can imagine him with that crazy bullhorn hat on tapping away happily at his puter...some times I thought he was just too clever for his boots

 

[justaname]

I know you do justaname,
I wonder what he's doing right now. I can imagine him with that crazy bullhorn hat on tapping away happily at his puter...some times I thought he was just too clever for his boots

He could dig up a pic for every occasion. He was/is very comical. In the grand scale it will not be long before we are all together with the Lord. Yes we are in the Lord already, yet I can only imagine how much greater it will be in the age to come.

17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

Come Lord Jesus, come.

My latest sun is sinking fast, my race is nearly run
My strongest trials now are past, my triumph has begun
Oh come Angel Band, come and around me stand
Oh bear me away on your snow white wings to my immortal home
Oh bear me away on your snow white wings to my immortal home
Oh bear my longing heart to Him who bled and died for me
Whose blood now cleanses from all sin and gives me victory
Oh come Angel Band, come and around me stand
Oh bear me away on your snow white wings to my immortal home
Oh bear me away on your snow white wings to my immortal home

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

This song is for Andy though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Q9AX-RKQU

 

[ATP]

No, Jesus gave his life in order to atone for sin. Salvation comes when we believe and accept that.

Right, and scripture says once we believe we have eternal life..

Isa 45:17 NIV, John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV / Prov 1:33 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV

So basically once you are saved there is a possibility you won't always be saved because it that was a fact then we wouldn't be instructed to endure and persevere and run the race excetera excetera excetera.

Persevering and running the race is about crowns in heaven. It has nothing to do with original salvation.

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 - Crown 1 - Crown of Righteousness— Loved the Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8 NIV
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27 NIV
3 - Crown 3 - Crown of Life— Endured Patiently through Trials - James 1:12 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV
4 - Crown 4 - Crown of Glory— Godly Leaders Who were Examples to Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV
5 - Crown 5 - Crown of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, Dan 12:3 NIV

but the fact is that when somebody falls into apostasy they do negate whatever baptism they received be at water or Holy Spirit.

It's impossible for a believer to abandon his faith when he is sealed until redemption.

and being eligible is not the same thing as receiving.

Stan, we become eligible for eternal life once we confess and believe. Confessing and believing is the same thing as receiving. God will do the rest.

John 14:18 NIV I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

No, seed first root second, it's a pretty basic agricultural concept. Peter is talking about the word of God being imperishable not us or our salvation.
John is talking about a life style of sinning. Instead of cherry-picking verses that have no actual relationship to one another you want to read the verses you pull out in the context of where they are. 1 John 2:1 says what it says and in light of that this verse will make more sense. You don't form a doctrine and then run around the Bible looking for individual verses to pull them out of context and use them to support your doctrine. That is called eisegesis.

Stan, the imperishable seed is implanted in you by the root because you believed the truth, the truth which remains in us forever.

All principles in the Bible remain the same regardless of whether they're in the Old Testament or the New Testament. justaname tried to make a point and I showed him that his point is not valid as he presented it. You can feel free to show me exactly where the Bible teaches about this demarcation that you advocate here?

That's not true. Believers are no longer under the law but under grace. Jesus death and resurrection brought about the new covenant Stan.

Oh and by the way to your discussion with Angelina and sanctification, Romans 8 teaches us that we are sanctified after we are saved, so I have no idea where you get this idea of the Walk of sanctification or whatever you called it?

There's actually four types of sanctification...

Preparatory sanctification: the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing us to the cross. (2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2)

Positional sanctification: a process or a procedure takes place by which a believer, the moment that he believes, becomes in the sight of God holy. That is why believers in the New Testament are called saints. (1 Corinthians 1:2)

Progressive sanctification: something that goes on daily constantly in the Christian life. It may have degrees; The Bible does speak about two degrees: about infants and about adults. (2 Corinthians 7:1)

Prospective sanctification: the complete agreement of our position and our practice, and that will take place at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23-24; Romans 8:29)

I agree with your synopsis based on 1 John 2:1-2. When a non-believer repents, he is forgiven. When a believer repents, he is also forgiven...

But the end result is much different. When a believer repents he moves closer to God. For example, he doesn't lose salvation, regain it, lose it again and then regain it again every time he repents. The believer either quenches the spirit or grows in the spirit and moves closer to maturity in Christ.

some choose to go back and wallow in the mud after knowing Christ as their personal savior because we live in this world

2 Peter 2:22 has nothing to do with saints. In fact, that whole chapter is about false prophets and teachers.

2 Pet 2:1 NIV - The chapter starts off by telling us who the audience is, false prophets and false teachers. 2 Pet 2:1 NIV also explains how they deny Christ. Those who deny the deity of Christ are nonbelievers and are of the antichrist spirit Tit 1:15-16 NIV, 1 John 2:22 NIV, Jude 1:4-7 NIV.

2 Pet 2:3 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are still condemned, but believers in Christ are no longer condemned by God...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV.

2 Pet 2:8 NIV - This verse clearly separates the righteous from the lawless, and scripture clearly states that believers are no longer condemned as lawless. We are no longer of the antichrist spirit...2 Thess 2:3 NIV, 2 Thess 2:7-9 NIV, Heb 10:17 NIV, 2 Pet 2:7-8 NIV.

2 Pet 2:9 NIV - This verse clearly states that the unrighteous are held for punishment on the day of judgment, but scripture clearly states that nonbelievers are the one's who will experience punishment...Dan 12:1 NIV, Matt 24:21-22 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, John 5:29 NIV, John 6:35-40 NIV *, John 6:54 NIV, John 12:48 NIV, Rom 2:5 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, 1 Thess 1:9-10 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV, Heb 4:3 ESV, Rev 3:10 NIV.

Scripture also states that believers will not be punished, rather we will be rewarded at the Bema Seat of Christ...Matt 5:12 NIV, Matt 6:20 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV, Phil 3:12-14 NIV, Col 2:18 NIV, 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, 2 Tim 2:5 NIV, 2 Tim 4:8 NIV, Heb 10:34-35 NIV, James 1:12 NIV, 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV, 2 John 1:8-11 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV, Rev 3:11 NIV, Rev 11:18 NIV, Rev 22:12 NIV.

2 Pet 2:14 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people never stop sinning, but believers in Christ no longer keep on sinning...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV.

2 Pet 2:17 NIV - This verse clearly tells us that these people are springs without water, but scripture tells us that believers in Christ are springs WITH water...John 4:13-14 NIV, John 7:38-39 NIV, 1 Pet 3:21 NIV, Rev 7:17 NIV, Rev 21:6 NIV, Rev 22:1-2 NIV, Rev 22:17 NIV.

Matthew 3 seems to indicate that if the Saducees and Pharisees bear fruit in keeping with their repentance, they too have the same opportunity as everyone else and if they do not bear good fruit, they/their [tree] will be cut down and thrown into the lake of fire. God does not show partiality.

Baptism by water was the Baptism that John preached which was the baptism of repentance. Although it was only a shadow, it still riled John up enough to speak out against them.

But John could not indwell people with the Holy Spirit and the seed of God. That is the difference. Repentance unto death vs repentance by faith are polar opposite Angelina.

Heb 6:1 NIV Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

- ATP

 

[StanJ]

Right, and scripture says once we believe we have eternal life..

No, the totality of scripture says that we attain eternal life when Jesus returns.

Persevering and running the race is about crowns in heaven. It has nothing to do with original salvation.

The crown is eternal life. You seem to have a problem distinguishing metaphorical language.

It's impossible for a believer to abandon his faith when he is sealed until redemption.

And yet Hebrews 6 contradicts you. Thanks but I'll stick with the Bible.

Stan, we become eligible for eternal life once we confess and believe. Confessing and believing is the same thing as receiving. God will do the rest.

Yes, keyword being eligible, and if we endure we will receive eternal life when Jesus returns. 1Cor 15:52
Obviously we don't receive it when we confess and believe because Hebrews 9:27 says it is appointed for every man to die once and then the judgement.
You continue to misrepresent what the word of God says.

Stan, the imperishable seed is implanted in you by the root because you believed the truth, the truth which remains in us forever.

The imperishable seed is the word of God as I have already explained to you and it is not implanted in me I accept it. Again you misrepresent the word of God.

That's not true. Believers are no longer under the law but under grace. Jesus death and resurrection brought about the new covenant Stan.

I said principles not laws. You need to stop not only misrepresenting God's word but my words as well. Discussions will go nowhere if you continually equivocate about what I say.

There's actually four types of sanctification...
Preparatory sanctification: the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing us to the cross. (2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2)
Positional sanctification: a process or a procedure takes place by which a believer, the moment that he believes, becomes in the sight of God holy. That is why believers in the New Testament are called saints. (1 Corinthians 1:2)
Progressive sanctification: something that goes on daily constantly in the Christian life. It may have degrees; The Bible does speak about two degrees: about infants and about adults. (2 Corinthians 7:1)
Prospective sanctification: the complete agreement of our position and our practice, and that will take place at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23-24; Romans 8:29)

That's RT vernacular, that is not the vernacular of the Bible so please stop misrepresenting the word of God. In the context of where sanctification is found in Bible, the scripture itself defines what it actually connotes. The only thing that sanctifies us is God. Nothing we do can sanctifies us or makes us holy. In fact sanctification is the process of making us whole. To be holy is to be used of God as he desires. Holy = Wholly.

 

[justaname]

Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things-things that belong to salvation. - Hebrews 6:9

This most overlooked section of Hebrews 6 I would like to bring to our attention.

The anonymous author has just given the dreaded section concerning for it is impossible in the case of...
The assumption is always they are believers that had salvation then lose it. Yet here in 6:9 it said "we feel sure of better things-things that belong to salvation."

So I question, was the veiled subject in the previous section ever about losing salvation? Did these in the previous section ever have salvation to begin with? Why is it the author makes the point to verify distinctly the confidence of salvation for his/her audience? Could this previous section be the non-believing Jews that were present at Jesus' incarnation? Is it these who have rejected their messiah have no further chance for salvation?

Remember this epistle is written to Jews to strengthen their confidence in the New Covenant.

Now re-read this section with this in mind. Notice how the author mentions the land (nation). Remember the punishment of 70 AD. Remember the triumphant entry of the Christ where He was greeted Hosannah! Remember the crowds that later cried out crucify Him. Remember how they all went out to be baptized by John the Baptist during his ministry: "Repent!" They were witnesses to the Light of the world. The Bread from heaven shared Himself with them. The true tabernacle of God was with them giving signs and wonders.

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. - Hebrews 6:4-8

Some did drink the rain of Christ, tasted of His goodness, and have chosen to believe. Now they have become children of God awaiting a new and better home. Others drank the reign of Christ only to bear thistles and thorns. Their temple was burned and destroyed, the city razed, and they were dispersed throughout the nations. Jesus' prophecy rang true, not one stone will be left. I see no remenant of the old temple today.

The Good Shepherd knows all His sheep by name, and He will not lose one within His flock. This is His promise to all who believe. Do you believe?

 

[Wormwood]

The term Paul uses, "in Christ" I see as reserved for only those who fulfill that commitment until the Day of the Lord. I am unaware of the Bible teaching of those in Christ ever separating from Him. As it is the Holy Spirit is given as a seal until the day of redemption.
Do those who fully submit to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord ever go into rebellion again? Those who do change their mind, were they ever fully submitted? Does Christ enter those He knows He will eventually leave, those He knows are not fully committed to Him?
Not that you need to answer these questions posed. I give them to cause us to think.
Perhaps you could look to post #87 though and comment on that.

Justaname,

I only have about 5 minutes so I will be brief but will respond more later. Thanks for your reply.

First, let me address the context of the passages in John you cite. Those passages are in reference to the crowds that chose to follow Jesus in opposition to the religious leaders that rejected Jesus. Jesus is commenting about those who follow him in contrast to those that follow the Pharisees. Jesus is making it plain that he is the gate and that those who want to know the Father will listen to him and find access to the Father through him. Obviously, this would have really angered the Pharisees that thought their Law and traditions were the gate and that they were the shepherds. So, I dont really see this to be so much about eternal security of the individual as it is Jesus simply proclaiming that those who desire to know God will listen to Jesus. I can share more about this later...

The reason I believe a person can rebel again after coming to know Christ is based on Scripture. I think there are a vast number of Scriptures that speak of a person knowing God or having the Holy Spirit and then falling away. Galatians speaks to this. 2 Peter 2 speaks about those who had been "washed" returning back to the mire. Romans warns believers about being "cut off" if they do not continue in belief. Jesus warns his own disciples about remaining "in him." 1 John uses the word "remain" (meno) over 20x in reference to holding to the truth and not following after false doctrines. Paul speaks of numerous companions that followed him who have deserted and "shipwrecked" their faith...and in so doing encourages Timothy to hold to the standard of teaching he received from him. Jesus warns the churches in Revelation so that they might not have their name blotted from the book of life. There are so many warnings directed at believers about growing strong in the faith and holding to the truth that it simply makes no sense to me that God would issue such warnings if the potential of falling away didnt exist.

Sorry, but I have some meetings this morning. Gotta run.

 

[Angelina]

But the end result is much different. When a believer repents he moves closer to God. For example, he doesn't lose salvation, regain it, lose it again and then regain it again every time he repents. The believer either quenches the spirit or grows in the spirit and moves closer to maturity in Christ.

This is where our point of contention is...A person who has heard the gospel that brings salvation, who has come to a revelation in their heart and an understanding of Jesus sacrifice on the cross can still fall away because they have not grown from there. They are never the less, a Christian. I know of people who have stayed in this position of being a baby Christian for years but have not grown up in their Christianity. They have fallen from there because they have no root or because of persecution or because they have decided that the price is too high. Some have even known Christ and have chosen to walk away, not because they had never known Christ personally in the first place but because they have a free will and like the life of not being accountable for their actions. It really depends on what is happening in their heart and to be honest, you cannot place a timeline on when a believer chooses to deny themselves, take up their cross and follow Jesus. That is why the process of sanctification needs to follow salvation. Salvation is a free gift but the process of sanctification is not an easy walk...One must lead after the other otherwise there is no growth and no fruit of repentance being produced which is what we are called to produce. Fruit! Matthew 3:8, 10, Matthew 7:16-17, 18, Matthew 12:33, Matthew 13:23, John 15:2, 4, 8, Galatians 5:22-23, Philippians 1:11, Colossians 1:10, Hebrews 12:11, 2 Peter 1:5, 6, 7, 8,

But John could not indwell people with the Holy Spirit and the seed of God. That is the difference. Repentance unto death vs repentance by faith are polar opposite Angelina.

I did not say that John could indwell people with the Holy Spirit? I was referring to John's ministry ~ The baptism of repentance was a shadow John rebuked the Pharisees and the Sadducees expecting them the produce fruit in keeping with their repentance. Nothing to do with anything else...please try to stick to the same line of thinking without veering off somewhere else.