God commands disobedience to his word

[tabletalk]

I chronically hear Christians say that God would never command people to go against his word... I really can't believe people that know scripture hold on to that belief... it's easily proven False yet the myth remains strangely prevalent.

God says thou shall not kill and then orders the Israelites to kill many people including women, children, and babies that were without sin.

Here is an example:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Numbers 21:9 ►
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

God commanded Moses to do the exact opposite of what he formerly commanded.
View attachment 1589
Not to mention, it looks a bit satanic.

God can do whatever he wants to.

God can and has had people do the opposite of what scripture says. The first Christians did the opposite of what the Mosaic law commands. Yet Jesus said he came not to abolish the law or remove one word from the law. God changes his mind a lot

So, if the a church does something that the Bible says not to do, who knows if it was actually inspired by God? Since God has a reputation for commanding people to go against his word, I wouldn't put it past him to be responsible for the decisions of church councils

The Bible alone Doctrine is built on a premise that blows itself up! The Bible alone is all that is needed to prove that the Bible alone is not the sole rule of sacred theology! Ouch!

I love you all it's just I constantly hear Christians calling other Christians pagan based on a "Bible alone" premise, and I seek unity and tolerance among Christians. That's all!

Your example of a graven images left out a very important part of the command: "...you shall not bow down to them nor serve them..."
Was the bronze snake worshipped?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I chronically hear Christians say that God would never command people to go against his word... I really can't believe people that know scripture hold on to that belief... it's easily proven False yet the myth remains strangely prevalent.

God says thou shall not kill and then orders the Israelites to kill many people including women, children, and babies that were without sin.

Here is an example:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Numbers 21:9 ►
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

God commanded Moses to do the exact opposite of what he formerly commanded.
View attachment 1589
Not to mention, it looks a bit satanic.

God can do whatever he wants to.

God can and has had people do the opposite of what scripture says. The first Christians did the opposite of what the Mosaic law commands. Yet Jesus said he came not to abolish the law or remove one word from the law. God changes his mind a lot

So, if the a church does something that the Bible says not to do, who knows if it was actually inspired by God? Since God has a reputation for commanding people to go against his word, I wouldn't put it past him to be responsible for the decisions of church councils

The Bible alone Doctrine is built on a premise that blows itself up! The Bible alone is all that is needed to prove that the Bible alone is not the sole rule of sacred theology! Ouch!

I love you all it's just I constantly hear Christians calling other Christians pagan based on a "Bible alone" premise, and I seek unity and tolerance among Christians. That's all!

You forgot: Proverbs 17:15 KJV
[15] He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

Which is what God did on the cross.

If you believe you can change God's mind, then great. Shouldn't we all pray in this manner? Isn't that petitioning?

 

[Trump0101]

Loving Mary or talking to her is not idolatry to me, personally.
But to others it sure seems it..especially if they were not brought up loving her
as Jesus' beloved Mother.
I think for girls she became someone to want to emulate...her love, obedience, purity seemed palpable.

She was extremely helpful. Extremely helpful is an understatement. I had serious mommy issues because my mom was cheating on my dad when I was 4, and other things she did, and that damaged my views of women in general, and I badly needed a mother figure in my life, and the Virgin Mary was the perfect mom... I needed maternal nurturing and tenderness... Praying the rosary was the most healing spiritual practice I've ever indulged in.

 

[Trump0101]

Not to mention, the rosary has been an extremely powerful weapon against Satan, that is why Padre Pio called the rosary the weapon

 

[michaelvpardo]

God says thou shall not kill and then orders the Israelites to kill many people including women, children, and babies that were without sin.

Here is an example:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Numbers 21:9 ►
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they

I love you all it's just I constantly hear Christians calling other Christians pagan based on a "Bible alone" premise, and I seek unity and tolerance among Christians. That's all!

Your example misrepresents the scripture it was taken from. The commandment goes on to say, "you shall not bow down to them or serve them." It wasn't that God simply prohibited the making of images, but He commanded that His people make no images to bow down before and serve. The bronze serpent described in the book of numbers was never intended to be an object of worship, but Israel was commanded to look up at it and by doing so be relieved of the plague of fiery serpents (seraphim). The scripture later describes the destruction of that same image because there were those among the Israelites who worshipped it under the name Nehustan (2 Kings 18:4) The New Testament reveals it as being a symbolic representation of Christ upon the cross by Jesus's own words, the bronze being representative of judgment: John 3:14-15.
The commandment translated as "Thou shalt not kill" is intended as "Thou shalt not murder" as God never contradicts Himself and it was God that gave us the covenant of Noah demanding blood for blood: Genesis 9:6.
When it came to the Caananites, God commanded that they be put to the ban, Holy for destruction, and because of their evil and idolatrous practices including infanticide, and since God knows all things, He also knew that Israel would fail even in that act. Obedience to His word is not optional, but as the scripture says, "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Corinthians 3:6)
Christians aren't given the option of judging their brethren ( James 4:11), but they absolutely are to judge peoples actions, to discriminate between good and evil, to choose the good and to rebuke evil. That is a requirement of love.
Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. Proverbs 27:6
"let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." James 5:20

 

[Marymog]

How do you know the Council of Ephesus, which decided Marian devotion was okay, was not inspired by God?

Hi,

I don't believe your question is historically accurate and I do not understand how it is germane to our discussion.

Mary

 

[michaelvpardo]

Loving Mary or talking to her is not idolatry to me, personally.
But to others it sure seems it..especially if they were not brought up loving her
as Jesus' beloved Mother.
I think for girls she became someone to want to emulate...her love, obedience, purity seemed palpable.

Nothing wrong with loving saints, the problem is with elevating their significance. The queen of heaven was a pagan deity that went by numerous names prior to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This mystery religion deity survives in the church among those who equate the saint with the deity and that amounts to pure idolatry. They actually do the mother of Jesus a disservice in making her an object of worship, something that she herself would never allow.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Nothing wrong with loving saints, the problem is with elevating their significance. The queen of heaven was a pagan deity that went by numerous names prior to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ......

Good way to put it..yes, the pagan Goddess, I suppose..which would be the feminine aspect of the Creator, put another way.
It would be hard to tell what is in a person's heart for Mary...love, asking for intercession or worship...that is, if one saw a person praying at a Mary statue in a church or at a Shrine.
Personally, I would not care what a person was doing...it's their biz.
I'm a spiritual sentry between my ears...but, not the police of others.
Not that I wouldn' like to be a grammar cop.

 

[Helen]

I really "love " Paul and all his epistles...but I don't ask him to pray for me.
I don't 'talk' to the old saints. I'm saving that for later

 

[BreadOfLife]

Nothing wrong with loving saints, the problem is with elevating their significance. The queen of heaven was a pagan deity that went by numerous names prior to the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This mystery religion deity survives in the church among those who equate the saint with the deity and that amounts to pure idolatry. They actually do the mother of Jesus a disservice in making her an object of worship, something that she herself would never allow.

And YOU do Jesus and His Mother a disservice by lying about her.
Catholics don't "worship" Mary or anybody else other than God.

A little advice:
Try being honest, for a change . . .

 

[michaelvpardo]

And YOU do Jesus and His Mother a disservice by lying about her.
Catholics don't "worship" Mary or anybody else other than God.

A little advice:
Try being honest, for a change . . .

Haven't lied once. Grow up and stop telling lies.

 

[Trump0101]

Haven't lied once. Grow up and stop telling lies.

The catechism forbids giving the Adoration that belongs to God Alone to anything less than God

 

[michaelvpardo]

The catechism forbids giving the Adoration that belongs to God Alone to anything less than God

Agreed, but that hasn't stopped the existence of societies and orders within the church for "devotional" purposes. My own mother was a member of at least two, one of which was devoted to the saint who's name she shared, Mary.

 

[michaelvpardo]

You forgot: Proverbs 17:15 KJV
[15] He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

Which is what God did on the cross.

If you believe you can change God's mind, then great. Shouldn't we all pray in this manner? Isn't that petitioning?

Interesting proverb quoted, but the point is that the prerogative of saving grace is God's alone, so He is obviously exempted from such statements. The scripture expresses the "repentance" of God, but this is from our perspective , not His. God exists outside His creation as well as in it. God knows everything done, everything happening now, and everything that will ever happen, so His mind doesn't change, it only appears that way to us who experience the passage of time.

 

[ScottA]

I chronically hear Christians say that God would never command people to go against his word... I really can't believe people that know scripture hold on to that belief... it's easily proven False yet the myth remains strangely prevalent.

God says thou shall not kill and then orders the Israelites to kill many people including women, children, and babies that were without sin.

Here is an example:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Numbers 21:9 ►
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

God commanded Moses to do the exact opposite of what he formerly commanded.
View attachment 1589
Not to mention, it looks a bit satanic.

God can do whatever he wants to.

God can and has had people do the opposite of what scripture says. The first Christians did the opposite of what the Mosaic law commands. Yet Jesus said he came not to abolish the law or remove one word from the law. God changes his mind a lot

So, if the a church does something that the Bible says not to do, who knows if it was actually inspired by God? Since God has a reputation for commanding people to go against his word, I wouldn't put it past him to be responsible for the decisions of church councils

The Bible alone Doctrine is built on a premise that blows itself up! The Bible alone is all that is needed to prove that the Bible alone is not the sole rule of sacred theology! Ouch!

I love you all it's just I constantly hear Christians calling other Christians pagan based on a "Bible alone" premise, and I seek unity and tolerance among Christians. That's all!

You are confusing "Bible alone" with "language alone."

All language was confounded by God at the tower of Babel...including scripture.

But God does not change, nor does His word contradict itself. Any such claim is due to misunderstanding. The scriptures must be discerned spiritually. "To him who has wisdom" and "he who has an ear to hear, let him hear", means "he who has the spirit of God." He who finds contradictions in the word of God - does not have the spirit of God in them...regarding the matter, even if he does for other matters - for we are "as children."

Remember..."His strength is made perfect in [our] weakness"...according to His perfect plan.

 

[Wormwood]

I chronically hear Christians say that God would never command people to go against his word... I really can't believe people that know scripture hold on to that belief... it's easily proven False yet the myth remains strangely prevalent.

God says thou shall not kill and then orders the Israelites to kill many people including women, children, and babies that were without sin.

Here is an example:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Numbers 21:9 ►
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

God commanded Moses to do the exact opposite of what he formerly commanded.
View attachment 1589
Not to mention, it looks a bit satanic.

God can do whatever he wants to.

God can and has had people do the opposite of what scripture says. The first Christians did the opposite of what the Mosaic law commands. Yet Jesus said he came not to abolish the law or remove one word from the law. God changes his mind a lot

So, if the a church does something that the Bible says not to do, who knows if it was actually inspired by God? Since God has a reputation for commanding people to go against his word, I wouldn't put it past him to be responsible for the decisions of church councils

The Bible alone Doctrine is built on a premise that blows itself up! The Bible alone is all that is needed to prove that the Bible alone is not the sole rule of sacred theology! Ouch!

I love you all it's just I constantly hear Christians calling other Christians pagan based on a "Bible alone" premise, and I seek unity and tolerance among Christians. That's all!

I think you are greatly misunderstanding the Scriptures and making serious accusations against God that He is inconsistent and unreliable.

1. God instructed people not to take judgment into their own hands by murdering one another. After all, in that same context, God instructs the people to stone idolators, etc. God is not being inconsistent. God is the one establishing rules for judgment rather than people making themselves judges by which to exact their own vengeance. That is the issue. So, there is no inconsistency in God commanding people to execute his judgment...whether that is through stoning a sorcerer or seizing the land of the Canaanites.

2. The "graven image" command had to do with idolatry and worshiping images AS GOD. This was a popular practice in the ancient world. The serpent on the staff was a foreshadowing of what Christ would do for us by becoming sin for us and being lifted up on the cross. There is nothing "satanic" about this and to suggest is much is quite ignorant. In fact, later on we read that the Israelites did begin to worship the image of the serpent on the staff and as a result, God had it destroyed. So, the purpose of the staff was not to display God's likeness and create an idol for worship. Rather it was to be a tool for deliverance from the venom of the snakes..and foreshadowed Christ's work on the cross.

3. Christ did not contradict the Law. Christ fulfilled the Law. Big difference. Jesus set up a New Covenant (or new contract). He fulfilled the requirements of the old contract and by so doing established a new contract by which we can be right with God apart from Law. This has nothing to do with God "changing his mind." It has everything to do with the Law fulfilling its purpose to lead us to Christ...a righteousness apart from law because we, as sinful people, cannot adhere God's holy requirements.

4. Because God "changes his mind" when we pray does not mean God is inconsistent or unreliable. What if God's desire is to give himself to those who are faithful and answer their prayers? This simply means God loves us and our prayers really are effective. It does not mean God is inconsistent or contrary to his own nature and purposes.

In sum, yes, God can do "whatever he wants." However, God does not defy his own holiness and nature. While his commands ARE directed at us (not himself) yet that does not make him inconsistent in keeping his own claims of what constitutes holiness. For instance, God is not a liar. God cannot lie. He does not "want" to lie because he is truth. Your claim that God is essentially erratic and unreliable is a seriously ominous statement and I suggest you do some real serious study of the Bible and soul searching before making such charges against the Almighty.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Haven't lied once. Grow up and stop telling lies.

Sure you have.

YOUR words from Post #27:
"They actually do the mother of Jesus a disservice in making her an object of worship, something that she herself would never allow."

The Catholic Church condemns the worship of anybody or anything other than God:

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods."5 God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.

2085 The one and true God first reveals his glory to Israel.6 The revelation of the vocation and truth of man is linked to the revelation of God. Man's vocation is to make God manifest by acting in conformity with his creation "in the image and likeness of God":
There will never be another God, Trypho, and there has been no other since the world began . . . than he who made and ordered the universe. We do not think that our God is different from yours. He is the same who brought your fathers out of Egypt "by his powerful hand and his outstretched arm." We do not place our hope in some other god, for there is none, but in the same God as you do: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.7

 

[michaelvpardo]

Sure you have.

YOUR words from Post #27:
"They actually do the mother of Jesus a disservice in making her an object of worship, something that she herself would never allow."

The Catholic Church condemns the worship of anybody or anything other than God:

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: "I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods."5 God's first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.

2085 The one and true God first reveals his glory to Israel.6 The revelation of the vocation and truth of man is linked to the revelation of God. Man's vocation is to make God manifest by acting in conformity with his creation "in the image and likeness of God":
There will never be another God, Trypho, and there has been no other since the world began . . . than he who made and ordered the universe. We do not think that our God is different from yours. He is the same who brought your fathers out of Egypt "by his powerful hand and his outstretched arm." We do not place our hope in some other god, for there is none, but in the same God as you do: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.7

So now the Catholic church condemns the practices of its own members? How many Mary devotees have been excommunicated? Name one. Stop telling lies.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So now the Catholic church condemns the practices of its own members? How many Mary devotees have been excommunicated? Name one. Stop telling lies.

If ANY Catholic professes to worship anybody other than God - they are ipso facto excommunicated.
You cannot profess heresy and remain a Catholic in good standing.

The ONLY person telling lies here is YOU when you made the asinine blanket statement:
"They actually do the mother of Jesus a disservice in making her an object of worship, something that she herself would never allow."

 

[michaelvpardo]

If ANY Catholic professes to worship anybody other than God - they are ipso facto excommunicated.
You cannot profess heresy and remain a Catholic in good standing.

The ONLY person telling lies here is YOU when you made the asinine blanket statement:
"They actually do the mother of Jesus a disservice in making her an object of worship, something that she herself would never allow."

Like I thought, you can't name one. Church discipline has become pretty lax everywhere, but ipso facto excommunication is a non-discipline and meaningless before God and man. By the way, you must have a serious conscience issue with idolatry as none of my statements could even be construed as "blanket" statements. Grow up, read a few hundred books and maybe you'll improve your reading comprehension. The word "they" refers to more than two. Did you complete elementary school?