(tim_from_pa;58934)
No, Jeff. The bible teaches Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And likewise, those who believe were chosen from the foundation of the world. That's predestination.
Ahh, I see. So God planned to have Adam and Eve screw up, sin, and cause the needless death and suffering of millions of people. It was all part of God's plan. And somehow that justifies him? Look - if God's plan all along was for Jesus to die, then that's fine. As God, that's his prerogative. But you can't tell me that such a God is all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful, because one of those options has to go. By knowing the qualities of God, we can know his actions. And for an all-powerful and all-loving God, planning to have humans sin, punishing them for that sin, and then sending his own Son to die to somehow remove that sin - well, that sounds ludicrous. If God is all-powerful, then he could have simply made a different plan, one that didn't involve all that dying, suffering, and "extinguishment." Since he did not, that at least makes a very strong argument against his "all-loving" quality.(tim_from_pa;58934)
Yet, there is free choice and we are still responsible for our actions. I'll let you ponder that one for a night.
I had a response for this, but in the interest of making my post shorter, I have deleted it. Free will is somewhat of a tangent from the discussion.(tim_from_pa;58934)
The things you deem contradictory in Christian faith I see as merely defining the limits of reason based on your senses.
Such reasoning is not based on the senses whatsoever. That is why it is called reasoning. It is the process of logic, not the process of perception.(tim_from_pa;58934)
This is why I NEVER get involved with other Christians debating free choice and predestination other than to say they both exist. I can tell by your understanding of logic that they cannot and therefore is ludicrous. I can tell you they do.
And on what do you base your claim? Because when you throw out reason as a justification for your beliefs, then you, by definition, are believing something entirely unreasonable. Generally that's seen as a bad thing. I could tell you that I believe that God both does and does not exist. You would call that a contradiction, and tell me it's not possible. But if I say, "God told me that he does and does not exist," then suddenly it's okay? Divine revelation, whether from God himself, or through the pages of Scripture, do not deny the need for reason and logic. Otherwise you base your beliefs on whatever you feel is most comforting to you.(tim_from_pa;58934)
As for being pragmatic, what I meant was that I may not agree with the way God allowed things to happen, but my myopic understanding should not be the basis for judging God, either as God works out of space and time. What I was saying was that I have to work with what I got whether I like it or not. Likewise, I can have faith in God whether I like Him or not.
Let me try to produce an argument, and then we can discuss this further. You are essentially saying that "God knows best, we may not always understand why he does things", correct? Let me produce my counter-argument.First off, if God is truly what we think he is, then yes, you're right. God may have a better understanding of the world than we do. However, at the same time, he has given us insight into who and what he is in the Bible. This is where the concept of an all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing God comes from.Now, let's say that I know you're somewhat environmentally conscious. Based on that information, I could make a reasonable assumption that if you had some garbage, you would throw it in a trash can instead of littering on the ground. But I might be wrong, of course. It's just a general assumption to work with. However, if I know that you are extremely environmentally conscious, my assumption grows - I will be more sure that you would, indeed, throw out that trash. If I know you are the founder and leader of Greenpeace, I could place quite high stakes that you will throw trash in the garbage instead of littering. To do so would simply be out of character.In other words, as one's qualities grow more extreme, we can more reasonably assume that one will act on these qualities. In the case of God, however, we have the absolute most extreme case of qualities. God is not just sometimes loving, he is ALL-loving. God is not just pretty strong, he is ALL-powerful. God isn't just a bright guy, he is ALL-knowing. And one more quality that Christians know about - God is NEVER-changing. So we can place absolute certainty that God will always, always, always act according to his character. If given the choice between something loving and not loving, he will pick the loving option. What's more, if given the choice between something loving and something more loving, he will choose the more loving option.My argument thus far, then, is this:1. As qualities become more extreme, we can be more confidence that the person with these qualities will act according to them.2. God displays the most extreme qualities possible.3. Therefore, we can place ultimate confidence that he will act according to these qualities.I'm sure you agree with all of this so far. If not, then show me where I have gone wrong.The problem, however, is that although God is all-knowing, we, unfortunately, are not. Therefore, we have limited knowledge of "the big picture," so to speak. Therefore, we may mistakenly conclude that God acted against his character, when really this was not the case. HOWEVER, I don't feel that this objection is justified. Why? Let me explain.While we do have but a small glimpse into the timeline, God has, thankfully, given us quite a view. Christians believe that the Bible gives us incredible insight into God's plan for our lives and indeed for the whole of human history. We can see right from the beginning of time all the way up until, at the very least, Jesus. He tells us quite clearly his plans and his actions in human history. To say then, that we are ignorant of God's "big picture view" is simply unjustified. We do have God's view. We even have a glimpse, some would say, of the future, where God's plan is for Jesus to return, judge the nations, and set up his eternal kingdom. So, in other words, we see God's view from beginning to endless end - we see right from the beginning of time to the very end, narrated at least indirectly by God himself. True, we will never have the mind of God, but we know his character, and we know his plan. If the two contradict, then we can determine, quite reasonably, that something is amiss.Here is where I would claim that there is, indeed, a problem. For we know that God is all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful, and yet his plan shows him to be less than that. If we know these characteristics, and these characteristics are extreme, then we can know with absolute certainty what God would do in any given circumstance, and we can know what kind of plan God would produce. This plan, filled with death, pain, suffering, and horrors unimaginable, simply does not line up - redemption or not. At least one of the qualities of God must be rejected in order to bring the two back into alignment. If God is not all-loving, then we can see that his plan included non-loving elements. If God is not all-knowing, then we can say that he didn't know the outcome of his actions. If God is not all-powerful, then we can say that he was helpless to change some crucial part of the plan. But to try to accept all of these qualities, and yet try to force this plan to fit into these qualities, is simply an untenable conclusion. It is a conclusion based not in reason, but in comfort. You want to believe that God has a plan for all of us, and that he loves us and wants what is best for us, and that things will be better in the future. But this is, quite simply, an unreasonable belief.Your other option, then, is to throw out reason entirely. And that's up to you, I suppose. But reason is an important part of our lives, something that we rely on every day, and, well, the Bible also tells us that God made us and endowed us with reason. If God has given us something he wants us to reject, then it almost makes him malicious in nature. Reason is a useful tool, and for God to want us to reject that makes him, well, unreasonable, I suppose. The Bible itself tries to be reasonable, even if it fails. So, if you choose to reject reason, good luck to you. You'll only be fooling yourself....