God's will, your will, eternity....why our will?

[bbyrd009]

I am probably making it harder than it really is.

redefine "eternity" for yourself, however seems better to you, imo

 

[KBCid]

Yes I know it is not 'my' and is 'our'. But it is one God. Not two beings with one purpose. This is why I disagree with your statement. As I said, it rang of more than one God. And as it turns out, that is what you are saying.

Why do you keep twisting what I am saying? I directly quoted scripture here;
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Where does it say there are two Gods in that verse? There are two being who represent God. Catholics like to assert that there are three beings who represent one God do you think they are really asserting three Gods?

Well, this is why I said 'prior to the fall'. Their, Adam and Eve's, will was in accord with God's will. Their will was indeed the will of God. Wasn't it? And when they exercised their will contrary to the will of God, bad things happen. They were ok until God's will was not being exercised.

How do you not get that A&E will was not God's will? If it was then they would not have fallen. So, since you can't seem to grasp that point then you define exactly how beings who are following God's will could possibly fall.

Your comparison to society after the fall doesn't work, because we contend with our fallen nature, satan, and the world, and choose between them and God. I am speaking of our will in eternity. So, it was God's will prior to the fall. In eternity, it will be only God's will also. So, if God's will is the only will, why make man with an individual will? Again these are not answers I am giving. Just thinking out loud.

Why does it have to be God's will for eternity?. Try this thought experiment "what rules would you put in place for all the free willed beings that will exist eternally?" Give it your best educated shot.

 

[Stranger]

Why do you keep twisting what I am saying? I directly quoted scripture here;
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Where does it say there are two Gods in that verse? There are two being who represent God. Catholics like to assert that there are three beings who represent one God do you think they are really asserting three Gods?



How do you not get that A&E will was not God's will? If it was then they would not have fallen. So, since you can't seem to grasp that point then you define exactly how beings who are following God's will could possibly fall.



Why does it have to be God's will for eternity?. Try this thought experiment "what rules would you put in place for all the free willed beings that will exist eternally?" Give it your best educated shot.

Romanists do not assert that there are three beings. Unless they have moved farther away from the Scripture then I last heard. There is one God in three persons. That is different than beings.

Are you saying, prior to the fall, that Adam and Eve when they exercised their will, that it was not the will of God? That what they willed, was not the will of God?

Adam and Eve fell because their will was no longer the will of God. In other words, it is only God's will that works. It is only when they line their will with God's will. Making it all God's will. Which, makes me say, what does that do to individual will? Individual will simply submits to God's will.

You use the term 'free will' pretty loosely. How is it free when only God's will is allowed.

It is God's will for eternity, because God is eternal and it is His will that is always followed. Are you saying that there are going to be 'rules' for believers to follow in eternity? And just like Adam and Eve, we will need to comply or else? This is interesting.

Stranger

 

[face2face]

God created me in 'His' image. Not 'their'.
Was Adam in a state of correction before the fall?

State of obedience to Gods Word & Will (same) in that Adam was to teach his wife and guide her, tend the garden and care for the natural and spiritual things of God.

What part of our existence does God's will not control? All you are saying is that Adam and Eve were free to do whatever came to mind as long as it was in the will of God. In other words, as long as my will was the will of God, then it is allowed.
So why my will?
Stranger

Profound questions.

The Bible informs us there are certain things God cannot do (i.e. lie, break His promises, die etc)...therefore God does not have free will, as we do (free will needs to be defined here).

God is He who is not liable to sin, nor can be liable: all moral creatures of the flesh, as having free-will, can be inclined to acts of life or death.

Righteousness (and love) then constrains (2 Corinthians 5:14) us to perform right acts which are in accordance with His eternal will. (correction) Does Love also constrain God and the Lord Jesus Christ? I think not - God is Love its not something He needs to Will.

Paul in Acts 18:5 and many other examples show we need to allow the Love of God to constrain and compel us to act out His Will.

Free will in it's purest sense is only made possible when we have a permanent consequence to rebellion, which in our case is death, the total cessation of life.

That is why God cannot rebel against Himself (He cannot cease to exist) - He cannot be divided in Love, Spirit or any part of Himself. His Oneness connects with this reality.

If Angels never die then they never sin because the "wages of sin is death". Romans 6:23

This is God's own eternal law - if He or any spirit being sinned, it would be met with the judgement of death.

Liberty to live within the constraints of God's righteousness enables the angel to have free will, however they do not have the evil propensities to sin like we do because we have the passions of the flesh i.e Adam & Eve falling.

Free will must be defined.

Angels free will, is defined as in the Spirit, they cannot chose to sin (being immortal and sinless creatures).
Men, on the other hand, have free will and they mostly chose to sin.

F2F

 

[KBCid]

Romanists do not assert that there are three beings. Unless they have moved farther away from the Scripture then I last heard. There is one God in three persons. That is different than beings.

Here is their dogma;
I. THE DOGMA OF THE TRINITY
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the (catholic) religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.
The Blessed Trinity - Encyclopedia Volume - Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholic Online

So tell me is a person a being? Would you and your wife be 2 persons and yet one being? "The twain shall be one".
If man is the image of God according to God then how do you view the male and the female?

Are you saying, prior to the fall, that Adam and Eve when they exercised their will, that it was not the will of God? That what they willed, was not the will of God?

God does not exercise his will beyond what is necessary for multiple beings to exist together. Ever see a command that says you can only be creative a certain way? You have to get a grip on what societal laws entail. You are still not grasping that the basic rules necessary for living beings to exist in harmony do not impinge on the freedom of the individual to do whatever creative thing they can imagine. God gave examples of what he meant about the societal rules in the OT and you will find not one rule or law that goes beyond the interface between God and man or man and man. If you want to sit in your field all day long and draw squiggle people in the dirt you have all the freedom in the universe to do that. Now if you want to draw squiggle people in your neighbors yard without first asking your neighbor then your action could create disharmony with your neighbor thus, basic societal rules must always exist when there is more than one being in existence.

Adam and Eve fell because their will was no longer the will of God. In other words, it is only God's will that works. It is only when they line their will with God's will. Making it all God's will. Which, makes me say, what does that do to individual will? Individual will simply submits to God's will.

Couldn't A&E have changed their will from what they had previously chosen to now be against God's will?

You use the term 'free will' pretty loosely. How is it free when only God's will is allowed.
It is God's will for eternity, because God is eternal and it is His will that is always followed. Are you saying that there are going to be 'rules' for believers to follow in eternity? And just like Adam and Eve, we will need to comply or else? This is interesting. Stranger

Your freedom of will was a Gift from God as part of your existence. You did not have to exist nor do you have to go on existing. Being that you did not form yourself then you as an individual being owe your ability to have any choice in anything at all to your maker. Tell me why should you question your makers will? Do your children question the will you push on them? Does your will encompass every single part of your children's individual will or do you allow them to be creative in their own ways as long as they obey some basic societal rules....
......You can go out with your friends after you do your chores.....
......

 

[Stranger]

Here is their dogma;
I. THE DOGMA OF THE TRINITY
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the (catholic) religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.
The Blessed Trinity - Encyclopedia Volume - Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholic Online

So tell me is a person a being? Would you and your wife be 2 persons and yet one being? "The twain shall be one".
If man is the image of God according to God then how do you view the male and the female?



God does not exercise his will beyond what is necessary for multiple beings to exist together. Ever see a command that says you can only be creative a certain way? You have to get a grip on what societal laws entail. You are still not grasping that the basic rules necessary for living beings to exist in harmony do not impinge on the freedom of the individual to do whatever creative thing they can imagine. God gave examples of what he meant about the societal rules in the OT and you will find not one rule or law that goes beyond the interface between God and man or man and man. If you want to sit in your field all day long and draw squiggle people in the dirt you have all the freedom in the universe to do that. Now if you want to draw squiggle people in your neighbors yard without first asking your neighbor then your action could create disharmony with your neighbor thus, basic societal rules must always exist when there is more than one being in existence.



Couldn't A&E have changed their will from what they had previously chosen to now be against God's will?





Your freedom of will was a Gift from God as part of your existence. You did not have to exist nor do you have to go on existing. Being that you did not form yourself then you as an individual being owe your ability to have any choice in anything at all to your maker. Tell me why should you question your makers will? Do your children question the will you push on them? Does your will encompass every single part of your children's individual will or do you allow them to be creative in their own ways as long as they obey some basic societal rules....
......You can go out with your friends after you do your chores.....
......

Your questions of the Trinity do not apply. To put God on the same level as human relationships is foolish. God is far above that. As far as the Roman profession of the Trinity, Catachism #253, "The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons,...." If 'person' is the same as 'being' why do you use the term 'being'?

The husband/wife relationship is not given to describe the Trinity. Man is made in the image of God, and the woman is taken out of man. You should really give the location of where you say such stuff.

You said a lot, but didn't answer my question. Are you saying that what Adam and Eve willed and did prior to the fall, was not the will of God?

Concerning Adam and Eve wishing they could change their will, I think Eve would have wished such a thing. I don't think Adam did or does.

I don't question God's will. My question is why God gives man a will, when only His will is to be allowed. I do not believe man has 'free will'. He has a will, but it is not free. Only God can exercise free will. His will is free. Our will is constantly tempted, manipulated, and thrown into circumstances out of our control. It is not free.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

State of obedience to Gods Word & Will (same) in that Adam was to teach his wife and guide her, tend the garden and care for the natural and spiritual things of God.


Profound questions.

The Bible informs us there are certain things God cannot do (i.e. lie, break His promises, die etc)...therefore God does not have free will, as we do (free will needs to be defined here).

God is He who is not liable to sin, nor can be liable: all moral creatures of the flesh, as having free-will, can be inclined to acts of life or death.

Righteousness (and love) then constrains (2 Corinthians 5:14) us to perform right acts which are in accordance with His eternal will. (correction) Does Love also constrain God and the Lord Jesus Christ? I think not - God is Love its not something He needs to Will.

Paul in Acts 18:5 and many other examples show we need to allow the Love of God to constrain and compel us to act out His Will.

Free will in it's purest sense is only made possible when we have a permanent consequence to rebellion, which in our case is death, the total cessation of life.

That is why God cannot rebel against Himself (He cannot cease to exist) - He cannot be divided in Love, Spirit or any part of Himself. His Oneness connects with this reality.

If Angels never die then they never sin because the "wages of sin is death". Romans 6:23

This is God's own eternal law - if He or any spirit being sinned, it would be met with the judgement of death.

Liberty to live within the constraints of God's righteousness enables the angel to have free will, however they do not have the evil propensities to sin like we do because we have the passions of the flesh i.e Adam & Eve falling.

Free will must be defined.

Angels free will, is defined as in the Spirit, they cannot chose to sin (being immortal and sinless creatures).
Men, on the other hand, have free will and they mostly chose to sin.

F2F

I disagree. God alone has free will. His will is not dictated by any other than Himself. You cannot use God's attributes against Him to say He doesn't have free will. God cannot cease to be God. His will would never be to sin, etc. etc. It is a foolish argument. He wills with no external force trying to force His will.

Angels did sin and will die. Apparently human flesh was not needed for them to sin. Indeed, because the angels sinned they will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire.

In Adam and Eves perfect state, they had no conflict with the flesh and spirit.

Free will is defined. Only God has it. Man has a will, but it is not free.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

I disagree. God alone has free will. His will is not dictated by any other than Himself. You cannot use God's attributes against Him to say He doesn't have free will. God cannot cease to be God. His will would never be to sin, etc. etc. It is a foolish argument. He wills with no external force trying to force His will.

Angels did sin and will die. Apparently human flesh was not needed for them to sin. Indeed, because the angels sinned they will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire.

In Adam and Eves perfect state, they had no conflict with the flesh and spirit.

Free will is defined. Only God has it. Man has a will, but it is not free.

Stranger

got any Scrip to support any of this? ty

 

[face2face]

I disagree. God alone has free will.

Of course you do ...hence why I said it's important to define the terminology "free will"

His will is not dictated by any other than Himself.

Correct.

You cannot use God's attributes against Him to say He doesn't have free will.

No "you" cannot perceive how God's attributes define and constrain His free will.

God cannot cease to be God. His will would never be to sin, etc. etc. It is a foolish argument.

He wills with no external force trying to force His will.

Okay so you are providing some insight into your definition of "free will"...your speaking of influence and control.

Angels did sin and will die. Apparently human flesh was not needed for them to sin.

Apparently means "I am not sure" but my theology doesnt work without making it so....even when Scripture teaches otherwise.

Indeed, because the angels sinned they will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire.

In Adam and Eves perfect state, they had no conflict with the flesh and spirit.

More I see you reference this lake of fire the more I realise you dont know what it is.

BTW - Adam was not in a perfect state. They were made of the earth earthy! Corruptable beings.

Free will is defined. Only God has it. Man has a will, but it is not free.

Stranger

I will put up some various definitions of free will in the hope of nailing you down a little

The ability of an agent to make genuine choices that stem from the self.

1. Libertarians argue that free will includes the power to determine the will itself, so that a person with free will can will more than one thing.

2. Compatibilists typically view free will as the power to act in accordance with one’s own will rather than being constrained by some external cause, allowing that the will itself may ultimately be causally determined by something beyond the self.

3. Hard determinists deny the existence of free will altogether.

Most Christian theologians agree that humans possess free will in some sense but sin, since human freedom is shaped and limited by human character. Thus a human person may be free to choose among possibilities in some situations but still be unable to avoid all sin.

I will leave it there for now though I am perceiving you are a hard determinist...you may like to clarify for all here that your theological determinism, means you believe God directly determines every event in your life.

If so, this will be an interesting conversation.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Further to this you all know I do not believe in an supernatural agent of evil, which influences the minds of believers etc. I do believe God and His Holy Angels have the knowledge of Good and Evil, and while we know God has not experienced Evil in His ominpotence nothing is hid from his wisdom or understanding.

The free will defense is a response to the problem of evil...arguing that God may be justified in allowing evil (even bringing it upon people) because the possibility of evil is logically inherent in free will. If free will is a great good that makes possible other great goods, then these goods might provide a sufficient reason for God in allowing evil. Our study of Job is a case in point - Job 42:11 states clearly God brought the evil, calamity or trouble upon Job.
God needs not justify Himself to any man and if God's determines discipline which are deemed as evil by onlookers, it matters not in the mind of God. He is aleardy defined as not having any evil though He uses it and shapes it at His own Will. Job 2:10 which is Job's response to his wife shows this to be true.

But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

@Stranger will need to concede that not even omnipotence can do what is logically impossible, God must accept the possibility of evil if he wishes to give his creatures free will.

God and Man have free will though its the divine liberty of will in the Spirit which is our higher calling.
God's will must be more profoundly free than mans, becuase man can make choices (toward Evil) but he lacks divine power.
However Mans will can choose acts which God cannot and vice versa.

Abraham offering Isaac was a free will offering in the sacrficing of his son. This act was inline with God's will - if Abraham choose not to offer his Son out of free will, then he would have sinned.

F2F

 

[Helen]

I don't question God's will. My question is why God gives man a will, when only His will is to be allowed. I do not believe man has 'free will'. He has a will, but it is not free. Only God can exercise free will. His will is free. Our will is constantly tempted, manipulated, and thrown into circumstances out of our control. It is not free.

I agree, and the way that I see it is like a smaller circle within a larger circle.
Our will is free ( the smaller circle) ...is free to roam anywhere and choose anything good or bad ( as Adam and Eve)...yet our circle is still within God's greater circle.

This is comforting to me...I am still encircled by his love and wisdom.. yet to a great measure I am free to choose. But my bad choices will make me sad later..so I choose His wisdom and will as much as I can...but I still blow-it sometime.

As children, free to play in the big back yard...but the yard being safely fenced. They can still fall out of the apple tree and break their arm!
That's how I picture free will.

 

[Stranger]

I agree, and the way that I see it is like a smaller circle within a larger circle.
Our will is free ( the smaller circle) ...is free to roam anywhere and choose anything good or bad ( as Adam and Eve)...yet our circle is still within God's greater circle.

This is comforting to me...I am still encircled by his love and wisdom.. yet to a great measure I am free to choose. But my bad choices will make me sad later..so I choose His wisdom and will as much as I can...but I still blow-it sometime.

As children, free to play in the big back yard...but the yard being safely fenced. They can still fall out of the apple tree and break their arm!
That's how I picture free will.

Good analogy. We are safe.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Of course you do ...hence why I said it's important to define the terminology "free will"



Correct.



No "you" cannot perceive how God's attributes define and constrain His free will.



Okay so you are providing some insight into your definition of "free will"...your speaking of influence and control.



Apparently means "I am not sure" but my theology doesnt work without making it so....even when Scripture teaches otherwise.



More I see you reference this lake of fire the more I realise you dont know what it is.

BTW - Adam was not in a perfect state. They were made of the earth earthy! Corruptable beings.



I will put up some various definitions of free will in the hope of nailing you down a little

The ability of an agent to make genuine choices that stem from the self.

1. Libertarians argue that free will includes the power to determine the will itself, so that a person with free will can will more than one thing.

2. Compatibilists typically view free will as the power to act in accordance with one’s own will rather than being constrained by some external cause, allowing that the will itself may ultimately be causally determined by something beyond the self.

3. Hard determinists deny the existence of free will altogether.

Most Christian theologians agree that humans possess free will in some sense but sin, since human freedom is shaped and limited by human character. Thus a human person may be free to choose among possibilities in some situations but still be unable to avoid all sin.

I will leave it there for now though I am perceiving you are a hard determinist...you may like to clarify for all here that your theological determinism, means you believe God directly determines every event in your life.

If so, this will be an interesting conversation.

F2F

God's attributes cannot be placed in opposition to God. Which is what you are trying to do with His will. Whatever God wills, will be. What ever God does not will, will not be. God is not a slave to Himself. He is God and does as He wills.

No, 'apparently' means, 'so it is obvious'.

Adam was made in a perfect state. Being made from the earth didn't make him imperfect. Your statement sounds Platonic to me. Or Gnostic.

I have said, man has a will. But it isn't free will. Only God has free will. Label me however you like. I have said what I believe.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Further to this you all know I do not believe in an supernatural agent of evil, which influences the minds of believers etc. I do believe God and His Holy Angels have the knowledge of Good and Evil, and while we know God has not experienced Evil in His ominpotence nothing is hid from his wisdom or understanding.

The free will defense is a response to the problem of evil...arguing that God may be justified in allowing evil (even bringing it upon people) because the possibility of evil is logically inherent in free will. If free will is a great good that makes possible other great goods, then these goods might provide a sufficient reason for God in allowing evil. Our study of Job is a case in point - Job 42:11 states clearly God brought the evil, calamity or trouble upon Job.
God needs not justify Himself to any man and if God's determines discipline which are deemed as evil by onlookers, it matters not in the mind of God. He is aleardy defined as not having any evil though He uses it and shapes it at His own Will. Job 2:10 which is Job's response to his wife shows this to be true.

But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

@Stranger will need to concede that not even omnipotence can do what is logically impossible, God must accept the possibility of evil if he wishes to give his creatures free will.

God and Man have free will though its the divine liberty of will in the Spirit which is our higher calling.
God's will must be more profoundly free than mans, becuase man can make choices (toward Evil) but he lacks divine power.
However Mans will can choose acts which God cannot and vice versa.

Abraham offering Isaac was a free will offering in the sacrficing of his son. This act was inline with God's will - if Abraham choose not to offer his Son out of free will, then he would have sinned.

F2F

Yes, we know you do not believe the Bible.

Where does it say angels have the knowledge of good and evil? A gross assumption on your part.

God has the knowledge of good and evil. Big deal.

I am saying man does not have free will. Thus all your speech on 'free will' is mute.

Stranger doesn't need to concede anything. Your arguing with yourself and not me. That makes it easy for you, doesn't it. You don't want to stick to what I say, you just make up your own arguments and argue with yourself. Hard to lose an argument with yourself. Isn't it?

As I said, man does not have free will.

Abrahams offering of Isaac was not free. He was commanded by God. And he submitted to it. That is not a free will. That is a submission of the will to God.

Stranger

 

[face2face]

Yes, we know you do not believe the Bible.

Where does it say angels have the knowledge of good and evil? A gross assumption on your part.

Your understanding of the Bible especially the Hebrew is showing Stranger.

The original Hebrew for “gods” or “divine beings" was always considered to be directing the listener's to God and His Angelic Host. Genesis 1:26 is the same as Genesis 3:22. God's Heavenly court is made up of God’s messengers (or angels). In Genesis 3:5 the serpent refer's to this angelic group as “gods/divine beings.” same again in Job 38:7.

Clearly you have something in your mind which is messing with your understanding.

What could it possibly be.

F2F

 

[aspen]

I have noticed that heresy can usually be traced back to altering the doctrine of the Trinity; it truly is foundational to Christianity.

 

[face2face]

I have noticed that heresy can usually be traced back to altering the doctrine of the Trinity; it truly is foundational to Christianity.

You must be speaking to Nicean Christianity which is a number of Gospel additions from the orginal.

 

[Stranger]

Your understanding of the Bible especially the Hebrew is showing Stranger.

The original Hebrew for “gods” or “divine beings" was always considered to be directing the listener's to God and His Angelic Host. Genesis 1:26 is the same as Genesis 3:22. God's Heavenly court is made up of God’s messengers (or angels). In Genesis 3:5 the serpent refer's to this angelic group as “gods/divine beings.” same again in Job 38:7.

Clearly you have something in your mind which is messing with your understanding.

What could it possibly be.

F2F

It's called Scripture. (Gen. 1:26,3:22) does not speak to angels. Angels are not made in the image of God. The serpent in (Gen. 3:5) does speak to an angel, Satan, as you have been told already. (Rev. 12:9)

(Job:38:7) does speak to the angelic host. Note there that the Lord did not say "when we sang together and when we shouted for joy" Which is how you want to read (Gen. 1:26, 3:22) as referring to angels. No, (Gen. 1:26,3:22) speaks to God. The Trinity.

Stranger

 

[face2face]

It's called Scripture.
(Gen. 1:26,3:22) does not speak to angels.

Right

Angels are not made in the image of God.

The fact they appear as men is merely a coincidence.

The serpent in (Gen. 3:5) does speak to an angel, Satan, as you have been told already. (Rev. 12:9)

Okay, so it’s speaking to angles when it suites you - those reading this post surely are scratching their heads at your blatant manipulation of Scripture.

(Job:38:7) does speak to the angelic host. Note there that the Lord did not say "when we sang together and when we shouted for joy" Which is how you want to read (Gen. 1:26, 3:22) as referring to angels. No, (Gen. 1:26,3:22) speaks to God.

Then you confirm the contradiction in one sentence.

The Trinity.

In conclusion you introduce an idea formatted by men in a council 325 AD.
Hmmmm
You are on a roll stranger...keep rolling.
F2F

 

[Stranger]

Right

The fact they appear as men is merely a coincidence.

Okay, so it’s speaking to angles when it suites you - those reading this post surely are scratching their heads at your blatant manipulation of Scripture.

Then you confirm the contradiction in one sentence.

In conclusion you introduce an idea formatted by men in a council 325 AD.
Hmmmm
You are on a roll stranger...keep rolling.
F2F

No, it is no coincidence that angels appear as men at times. Because they are appearing to men.

No, it speaks to angels when it speaks to angels. As I have shown you before.

No, I simply showed you where you were wrong concerning (Gen. 1:26,3:22)

No, I introduce the teaching of Scripture.

Rollin, rollin, rollin, keep them doggies moven....

Stranger