God's will, your will, eternity....why our will?

[Stranger]

While we are in Hebrews @Stranger its worth making a few connections worthy of mention.

The title "Elohim" is a name bestowed on angels and men.

It is written, 'Worship him, all ye Elohim' (Psalms 97:7). This is quoted by Paul in the Hebrews 1, as a command of the Everlasting Father to the angels, that they should honour the Lord Jesus as His Son.

The connection in Heb 2 quoting Psalms 8:5 'Thou hast made him a little lower than the Elohim'. Paul applies this to Jesus saying, 'We see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels' (Hebrews 2:9).

Jesus was inferior to them appox. thirty years, from the birth of the flesh to his resurrection; when he was exalted far above them in rank and dignity, even to the 'right hand of power', which is enthroned in light, where dwells the Majesty in the heavens."

From the above we conclude that when the term Elohim is used in regard to the angels, the word signifies "mighty ones" through whom God manifested Himself.

God does not manifest Himself through divine beings who are made in anothers gods image.

Remember there are no other gods

Yes, the term "Elohim" is used to speak to God, to men, or to angels. So? That doesn't make angels created in the image of God. It doesn't make angels divine.

Stranger

 

[face2face]

What previous 16 verses are you talking about?

Whose statement is that..."If Jesus had been an Angel he could not have helped the 'children of promise"? If it is mine, where did you get it?

Again, for Heb. (2:16-17) see my explanation in post #56.

Stranger

You are using Hebrews 2:16 to prove your unbiblical theory, when its actually speaking of something entirely different.

And you didnt answer the question because you are all over the place.

Why did Jesus NOT come to save Angel's, but the "children of Abraham"?

Because Hebrews 2:17 answers it for you!!!!!

Therefore he (Jesus ) had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that Jesus might be a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people.

The section of scripture you quoted has NOTHING to do with being made in God's image and likeness....its about the Atonement God was providing for the children of Abraham (His Children) so they can one day have Divine nature and no longer suffer under sin and death.

Whew!

It's not difficult Stranger.

 

[face2face]

Yes, the term "Elohim" is used to speak to God, to men, or to angels.
Stranger

Impressive!
Now join the dots

 

[Stranger]

You are using Hebrews 2:16 to prove your unbiblical theory, when its actually speaking of something entirely different.

And you didnt answer the question because you are all over the place.

Why did Jesus NOT come to save Angel's, but the "children of Abraham"?

Because Hebrews 2:17 answers it for you!!!!!

Therefore he (Jesus ) had to become like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that Jesus might be a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people.

The section of scripture you quoted has NOTHING to do with being made in God's image and likeness....its about the Atonement God was providing for the children of Abraham (His Children) so they can one day have Divine nature and no longer suffer under sin and death.

Whew!

It's not difficult Stranger.

No, (Heb. 2:16-17) is speaking to exactly what I said it did.

No, I asked where you got the statement that you built your question on. Tell me whose statement it is and I will answer your question.

(Heb. 2:17) has everything with Jesus being made in God's image, and thus in mans image who is in the image of God. Just as (Heb. 1:3) says that Jesus is "the express image of his person". The exact very image. Something the angels are not.

I know it's not.

Stranger

 

[face2face]

@Stranger

The word tselem (image uesed in Genesis 1:26) means a shadow, or an image, a likeness.

The word is reproduced in Daniel 2:32 in relation to the image, and relates to form or appearance.

Example:

In Genesis 5:3 it states that "Adam begat a son in his likeness after his image" which illustrates its use here.

Do you understand what is being implied in Gen 1:26?

I ask this becuase you might have some crazy notion it means something entirely different.

Let's hope not.

Angels are in the image (form and appearance) and likeness (character) of God.

We have been made in their image - God and His Elohim

 

[Stranger]

Impressive!
Now join the dots

I did. dot dot dot That doesn't make the angels created in the image of God.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

@Stranger

The word tselem (image uesed in Genesis 1:26) means a shadow, or an image, a likeness.

The word is reproduced in Daniel 2:32 in relation to the image, and relates to form or appearance.

Example:

In Genesis 5:3 it states that "Adam begat a son in his likeness after his image" which illustrates its use here.

Do you understand what is being implied in Gen 1:26?

I ask this becuase you might have some crazy notion it means something entirely different.

Let's hope not.

Angels are in the image (form and appearance) and likeness (character) of God.

We have been made in their image - God and His Elohim

Yes, I understand (Gen. 1:26). Man is created in the image of God.

Only man is in the image of God. Not angels.

Stranger

 

[face2face]

No, (Heb. 2:16-17) is speaking to exactly what I said it did.

No, I asked where you got the statement that you built your question on. Tell me whose statement it is and I will answer your question.

(Heb. 2:17) has everything with Jesus being made in God's image, and thus in mans image who is in the image of God. Just as (Heb. 1:3) says that Jesus is "the express image of his person". The exact very image. Something the angels are not.

I know it's not.

Stranger

Okay Stranger I will play along

Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants.

New Living Translation
We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham.

English Standard Version
For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.

Berean Study Bible
For surely it is not the angels He helps, but the descendants of Abraham.

Berean Literal Bible
For surely He helps not the angels, but He helps the seed of Abraham.

New American Standard Bible
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

King James Bible
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For it is clear that He does not reach out to help angels, but to help Abraham's offspring.

International Standard Version
For it is clear that he did not come to help angels. No, he came to help Abraham's descendants,

NET Bible
For surely his concern is not for angels, but he is concerned for Abraham's descendants.

New Heart English Bible
For, truly, he did not come to help the angels, but to help the offspring of Abraham.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For death was not authorized over the Angels, but death was authorized over the seed of Abraham.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
So Jesus helps Abraham's descendants rather than helping angels.

New American Standard 1977
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For verily he did not take the angels, but he took the seed of Abraham.

American Standard Version
For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham.

English Revised Version
For verily not of angels doth he take hold, but he taketh hold of the seed of Abraham.

Webster's Bible Translation
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Weymouth New Testament
For assuredly it is not to angels that He is continually reaching a helping hand, but it is to the descendants of Abraham.

World English Bible
For most certainly, he doesn't give help to angels, but he gives help to the seed of Abraham.

 

[face2face]

@Stranger if you believe you are made in the image and likeness of God and we know the angels appear in the same image and likeness of men, who do you believe they take their form and appearance from?

 

[Stranger]

Okay Stranger I will play along

Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants.

New Living Translation
We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham.

English Standard Version
For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.

Berean Study Bible
For surely it is not the angels He helps, but the descendants of Abraham.

Berean Literal Bible
For surely He helps not the angels, but He helps the seed of Abraham.

New American Standard Bible
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

King James Bible
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For it is clear that He does not reach out to help angels, but to help Abraham's offspring.

International Standard Version
For it is clear that he did not come to help angels. No, he came to help Abraham's descendants,

NET Bible
For surely his concern is not for angels, but he is concerned for Abraham's descendants.

New Heart English Bible
For, truly, he did not come to help the angels, but to help the offspring of Abraham.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For death was not authorized over the Angels, but death was authorized over the seed of Abraham.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
So Jesus helps Abraham's descendants rather than helping angels.

New American Standard 1977
For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For verily he did not take the angels, but he took the seed of Abraham.

American Standard Version
For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham.

English Revised Version
For verily not of angels doth he take hold, but he taketh hold of the seed of Abraham.

Webster's Bible Translation
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Weymouth New Testament
For assuredly it is not to angels that He is continually reaching a helping hand, but it is to the descendants of Abraham.

World English Bible
For most certainly, he doesn't give help to angels, but he gives help to the seed of Abraham.

And your point is?

The understanding of the verb used is determined by the context. And the context is exactly as the King James interprets it.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

@Stranger if you believe you are made in the image and likeness of God and we know the angels appear in the same image and likeness of men, who do you believe they take their form and appearance from?

I already told you before. Angels appear as men because they are appearing to men. But angels themselves are not created in the image of God.

Stranger

 

[face2face]

@Stranger

Okay we keep playing....you are considering the phrase “taketh hold of” in your now favoured KJV in Hebrews 2:16 epilambanomai means to ‘take, catch, lay hold on, take possession of ...’.

The next use of this word in this epistle is Hebrews 8:9 which is a very relevant passage. When one takes hold of a child’s hand one is leading, guiding and keeping it from harm—the very way in which God took hold of the seed of Abraham in the wilderness—who themselves needed to hold on but failed to do so.

The Lord Jesus, knowing that he was a partaker of our condemn nature, took hold of the seed of Abraham (the only people to whom he was sent at first) to lead, guide and ultimately to save them.

God did not send forth His Son to guide and save angels. Isaiah 41:8 read with verse Isaiah 41:9 speaks of the servant (also named Jacob) as “thou whom I have taken hold of ... from the ends of the earth”.

Context is not what you are forcing upon it.

Certainly the modern translators have corrected the mistranslation in the KJV.

But you already knew that right?

 

[face2face]

I already told you before. Angels appear as men because they are appearing to men. But angels themselves are not created in the image of God.

Stranger

So they appear as those who are made in the image and likeness of God

 

[face2face]

@Stranger

Did you notice from your quoted verse in the KJV how certain words are in italics?

"on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham"

Do you know why?

 

[Stranger]

@Stranger

Okay we keep playing....you are considering the phrase “taketh hold of” in your now favoured KJV in Hebrews 2:16 epilambanomai means to ‘take, catch, lay hold on, take possession of ...’.

The next use of this word in this epistle is Hebrews 8:9 which is a very relevant passage. When one takes hold of a child’s hand one is leading, guiding and keeping it from harm—the very way in which God took hold of the seed of Abraham in the wilderness—who themselves needed to hold on but failed to do so.

The Lord Jesus, knowing that he was a partaker of our condemn nature, took hold of the seed of Abraham (the only people to whom he was sent at first) to lead, guide and ultimately to save them.

God did not send forth His Son to guide and save angels. Isaiah 41:8 read with verse Isaiah 41:9 speaks of the servant (also named Jacob) as “thou whom I have taken hold of ... from the ends of the earth”.

Context is not what you are forcing upon it.

Certainly the modern translators have corrected the mistranslation in the KJV.

But you already knew that right?

I am considering (Heb. 2:16-17).

Yes, indeed (Heb. 8:9) in the KJV interprets it as such. Context required it. Context is part of the interpretation process. And in (2:17), we are told, "...in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren,". Which is why the KJV translates as it does. Man is made in the image of God and now the Son would become a man in every way save the sin nature. He had a human nature but not a sin nature. He did not become an angel in any way, as angels are not created in the image of God. And it is man that Christ laid hold of to save.

Modern translators change a lot of things in the Bible. Yes, I knew that.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

So they appear as those who are made in the image and likeness of God

Sometimes, yes.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

@Stranger

Did you notice from your quoted verse in the KJV how certain words are in italics?

"on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham"

Do you know why?

Yes. It is because they are not in the original. But, they help to give the sense of what is being said.. That is what translation is all about.

Stranger

 

[prashanthd]

In other words, what is the purpose of the will when only God's will is allowed?

Stranger

I understand this question in two parts -

Why God's will:

1. God is the King

Psalm 47
7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.

Epehsians 6
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Isaiah 45
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

If a King discovers that there are people who do not want his will to be done, the King would certainly destroy them.

Psalm 10
16 The LORD is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land.
Matthews 13
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Therefore The Lord taught us to pray,
Matthew 6
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.




2. Our future is uncertain

James 4
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.


3. God created us to give all glory to Him

Romans 11
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Psalm 29
1 Give unto the LORD, O ye mighty, give unto the LORD glory and strength.
2 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.(Phill 2:10)


4. For God's guidance

Proverbs 3
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.




Why our own will:

1. So that we might have understanding
Psalm 32
9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

2. To realize the gifts of God
Ephesians 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

3. So that we might have dominion on earth
Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


God created us so that we may exercise our will in doing good things.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
When we come under the influence of sin, then our will would be of sinful nature.
Psalm 19
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
Genesis 4
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


All glory to God.

 

[Stranger]

I understand this question in two parts -

Why God's will:

1. God is the King

Psalm 47
7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.

Epehsians 6
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Isaiah 45
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

If a King discovers that there are people who do not want his will to be done, the King would certainly destroy them.

Psalm 10
16 The LORD is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land.
Matthews 13
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Therefore The Lord taught us to pray,
Matthew 6
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.




2. Our future is uncertain

James 4
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.


3. God created us to give all glory to Him

Romans 11
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Psalm 29
1 Give unto the LORD, O ye mighty, give unto the LORD glory and strength.
2 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.(Phill 2:10)


4. For God's guidance

Proverbs 3
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.




Why our own will:

1. So that we might have understanding
Psalm 32
9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

2. To realize the gifts of God
Ephesians 4
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

3. So that we might have dominion on earth
Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


God created us so that we may exercise our will in doing good things.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
When we come under the influence of sin, then our will would be of sinful nature.
Psalm 19
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
Genesis 4
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


All glory to God.

We are to exercise our will in doing God's will.

God has chosen to exercise His will through our will.

Just like with the elect of God. God has the elect, chosen by Him. But, the elect only come to knowing they are elect by first exercising their will to come to Christ. Thus God's will is exercised through our will.

Stranger

 

[aspen]

Man only is created in the image of God. (Heb. 2:16-17) "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren,...."

Stranger

Where is the word ‘only’?