Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

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robert derrick

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Let’s assume … just for the sake of discussion … that I agree with everything in your post.
Did you ever actually address my question about the paradox of Paul claiming an CONFIDENCE that no man can possess (not even an Apostle)?
Yes, I see your point of my apparent self-contradiction. I was not saying that Paul was sure of what each individual would do. He was stating Scripture of God for all, of what God will do, if...

I only point out that Paul could be more sure of the Philippian church as a whole, as perhaps compared to that of Corinth, based on their consistently good record. But, of course, he would state the same Scripture to the Corinthians, as a matter of common salvation.

The main point is that I don't see enough Scripture to justify: will complete = will complete no matter what you say or do in future...

It is simply a statement of God's ability and will for His people; however, the record of His people is full of failure on their part, with God needing to respond accordingly to salvage what remnant He can. God's will is that all men should be saved. Will all men be saved? No. But it is God's will. Yes. But God's will for another living soul is dependent on their will to comply, because when he made them a living soul, He gave us free will and intelligence and heart to decide, which is His image: free will. Different from animals and angels.

And so far as the last great persecution before His return and rapture, there must be a falling away first (2 Thess 2;3), exactly as there was with the children of old, so that a remnant is once again reserved to God.

This Scripture is actually the only such verse that gives any definite insight of timeline to the Lord's return: except there be a falling away first. I believe that falling away is with the rise of the First beast, who uses great deception to lure away from the faith of Jesus. He will most likely be a legalist beast also, which is the record of them that have troubled the believers in Galatians, as well as the Pharisees with Jesus Himself.
 
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atpollard

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I almost hate to jump in between you guys in fear of being crushed. The theological ping pong game has been enlightening. This debate has existed for many years and I'm certain will not go away. For myself, I cannot accept the eternal security, O.S.A.S theology for many reasons but I think the most clear-cut scriptures are James 5:19-20.

Brethren if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sin.


You had to be in the TRUTH in order to wander from the TRUTH. The price of leaving the TRUTH is death.
Would applying that message to every Israelite living from the birth of Jesus until John the Baptist called then to “Repent for the Kingdom of God is near” impact it’s meaning?
(Do THOSE Christians ‘not count’?)

[shrug] ... Just wondering out loud since James was associated with the Judaisers.
 

robert derrick

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Would applying that message to every Israelite living from the birth of Jesus until John the Baptist called then to “Repent for the Kingdom of God is near” impact it’s meaning?
(Do THOSE Christians ‘not count’?)

[shrug] ... Just wondering out loud since James was associated with the Judaisers.
Were their any 'Christians' before the cross? I'm talking about them that drink His blood indeed and are thereby washed clean from their sins by faith. I'm not referring to such believers being first called Christians in Antioch, where Paul was ministering.

But the message has always been the same:
There is if it is designed to separate between soul and spirit, between the unsaved and the saved. Reborn people are different, and the Bible has many places to help sort us out.

Much love!
There really is no need to parse soul and spirit here. This is a simple dispute about saved, and then not saved.

To abide, we must first be grafted in. (Rom 11)

Abiding in the Vine has nothing to do with them that abide still in unbelief, or have never believed.

And James was not known as a 'Judaizer' by the Lord nor His apostles, nor them he wrote to.

That is a false characterization made by believers who have a problem with justification by works, and not by faith only, which is dead being alone without works of faith to prove and perfect the faith. Or as Paul said, to go on to perfection (Heb 6:1).

Also, Paul was not preaching justification by faith only or alone. No Scripture says that. He was rebuking going on to perfection and justification by the law without faith, or by a false faith and corrupt persuasion that is not from God, but from man. (Gal 5:8)

First comes faith, then comes love, then comes works of faith in the baby carriage. Then comes growing up to discern both good and evil according to Scripture, and not according to man's reasonings nor rules:

I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. (1 John 2:14)

Simply put: if we don't abide in the faith of Jesus unto the end, we won't be saved in the end, because we are saved by God with grace through His faith, not the faith of another, nor of our own making.

God saves by grace the new man of the faith of Jesus. If that faith is corrupted or dead, then no more new man for God to save by grace.

He that was a believer of Jesus, and is not now a believer of Jesus.

Either that is possible, or it is not. That is the proving ground of this whole thread.
 

robert derrick

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Living under grace vs living under the law.

He that shall lose His life shall find it.

Living under grace is a complete crucifixion of the old man and life. Not just of sin, but of personal will. Even if it is not a transgression of law of God, we still do not do anything, except it be by faith (Rom 14:23).

Living under the law is to only avoid transgression, and while the desire is to please God by faith, it is not practiced in the little things or daily activities of life that are lawful to do.

Saved believers can be living under the law: not to be justified by it, but simply to avoid transgressing it. Which is good in itself. But living by faith under grace goes deeper into the heart, to where nothing is justified in our deed, except it be by faith, whether lawful or not.

If there was ever such a thing as the 'pure church' of God in the beginning, it was this: that they repented entirely of their past life as pagan or Jew, and submitted themselves entirely to the daily living of faith in Jesus personally. The 'law' only came into play by forced intrusion of lawgivers, whether Judaizers or Gentile rule makers.

Good Christians today mostly live by faith under the law. They avoid transgression and do desire to please God, and God is pleased, and they are saved. However, living under grace by faith is to submit oneself in every degree to the will of God in their lives: no habit, no tradition, nor societal norm, no entertainment, no gathering, nothing of the commonplace is exempt from the rule of faith in Jesus.

Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. (James 4)

It is the difference between losing one's life and finding it only in Jesus Christ, and losing one's sins and finding good living with God.

The latter is a righteous life with God, but the former is the life in Christ Jesus. (Luke 12:21-32)
 

TheslightestID

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I decided to place this in the DEBATE forum because I have no expectations that @Curtis will engage in anything approaching a brotherly discussion on the Calvinist teaching from the Doctrines of Grace commonly called “Perseverance of the Saints”.

BEGIN FORMAL DEBATE:

It has been falsely claimed by my esteemed opponents that Perseverance of the Saints and O.S.A.S. (once saved always saved) are identical, that they spring from the non-biblical and false teachings of Calvinism and they both teach: “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”.

I offer the simplest possible response, just one word sums it up.

Balderdash!

Rather than fight rumors and innuendos and false claims about what Calvinism teaches with endless, unheeded protestations about “straw men” (I was told Calvinists have to use that word in every discussion :) ), I will simply present an explanation from R.C. Sproul of Ligonier Ministries written by a Presbyterian Calvinist to explain to other Calvinists the meaning of Perseverance of the Saints. I then invite my opponent, @Curtis to respond in proper debate form and refute my belief (Perseverance of the Saints) as defined by Mr Sproul as “unbiblical” using scripture and logic to refute the actual claim rather than to attack the imaginary claims of some “invisible Calvinists” that teach whatever it is that @Curtis may have heard.


TULIP and Reformed Theology: Perseverance of the Saints
FROM R.C. Sproul Apr 22, 2017

Writing to the Philippians, Paul says, “He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end” (Phil. 1:6). Therein is the promise of God that what He starts in our souls, He intends to finish. So the old axiom in Reformed theology about the perseverance of the saints is this: If you have it—that is, if you have genuine faith and are in a state of saving grace—you will never lose it. If you lose it, you never had it.

We know that many people make professions of faith, then turn away and repudiate or recant those professions. The Apostle John notes that there were those who left the company of the disciples, and he says of them, “Those who went out from us were never really with us” (1 John 2:19). Of course, they were with the disciples in terms of outward appearances before they departed. They had made an outward profession of faith, and Jesus makes it clear that it is possible for a person to do this even when he doesn’t possess what he’s professing. Jesus says, “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Matt. 15:8). Jesus even warns at the end of the Sermon on the Mount that at the last day, many will come to Him, saying: “Lord, Lord, didn’t we do this in your name? Didn’t we do that in your name?” He will send them away, saying: “Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23). He will not say: “I knew you for a season and then you went sour and betrayed Me. No, you never were part of My invisible church.” The whole purpose of God’s election is to bring His people safely to heaven; therefore, what He starts He promises to finish. He not only initiates the Christian life, but the Holy Spirit is with us as the sanctifier, the convictor, and the helper to ensure our preservation.

I want to stress that this endurance in the faith does not rest on our strength. Even after we’re regenerated, we still lapse into sin, even serious sin. We say that it is possible for a Christian to experience a very serious fall, we talk about backsliding, we talk about moral lapses, and so on. I can’t think of any sin, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, that a truly converted Christian is not capable of committing.

We look, for example, at the model of David in the Old Testament. David was surely a man after God’s own heart. He was certainly a regenerate man. He had the Spirit of God in Him. He had a profound and passionate love for the things of God. Yet this man not only committed adultery but also was involved in a conspiracy to have his lover’s husband killed in war—which was really conspiracy to murder. That’s serious business. Even though we see the serious level of repentance to which David was brought as a result of the words of the prophet Nathan to him, the point is that David fell, and he fell seriously.

The apostle Paul warns us against having a puffed-up view of our own spiritual strength. He says, “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12). We do fall into very serious activities. The Apostle Peter, even after being forewarned, rejected Christ, swearing that he never knew Him—a public betrayal of Jesus. He committed treason against His Lord. When he was being warned of this eventuality, Peter said it would never happen. Jesus said, “Simon, Simon, Satan would have you and sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you, so that when you turn, strengthen the brothers” (Luke 22:31-32).Peter fell, but he returned. He was restored. His fall was for a season. That’s why we say that true Christians can have radical and serious falls but never total and final falls from grace.

I think this little catchphrase, perseverance of the saints, is dangerously misleading. It suggests that the perseverance is something that we do, perhaps in and of ourselves. I believe that saints do persevere in faith, and that those who have been effectually called by God and have been reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit endure to the end. However, they persevere not because they are so diligent in making use of the mercies of God. The only reason we can give why any of us continue on in the faith is because we have been preserved. So I prefer the term the preservation of the saints, because the process by which we are kept in a state of grace is something that is accomplished by God. My confidence in my preservation is not in my ability to persevere. My confidence rests in the power of Christ to sustain me with His grace and by the power of His intercession. He is going to bring us safely home.​

Two things should be immediately apparent to any honest person reading the explanation of Perseverance of the Saints, by Dr. Sproul (even if you completely disagree with him and me and the P of TULIP):
  1. To claim that it is “completely unbiblical” or that it is “found nowhere in the Bible”, as some have been known to say in the heat of discussions, it patently FALSE.
  2. “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ” is NOT what the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints teaches and both Dr Sproul and I adamantly reject even the notion that that is what we teach or believe.

I yield the “soapbox” to @Curtis to address how we (Calvinists like Sproul and I) have incorrectly understood (exegesis) the verses quoted above, or have read into them meanings that are not there (eisegesis). I also look forward to reading his scriptural proof that God does not preserve His blood-bought Saints from the moment they receive God’s gift until they arrive home to the reality of “eternal life” in Christ.

Arthur

Show me one "Grace Hater" here, and if you cannot, then right from the start you are being deceitful. It speaks loudly against your point when you have to use deceiptful practices to make your point.
 

robert derrick

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What if Adam had told her that? I mean, we don't really know, do we? Why make any assumptions when it comes to the Bible?

Much love!
We only know that Eve believed it, and so was deceived in the transgression (1 Tim 2:14). Adam was not deceived about any of it. He was just the coward that played along.

One of them came up with it. Eve is the one who said it, and so it is safe to say Eve was the one convinced by it and tried to live it sincerely. And sincerely wrong.
 

robert derrick

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Show me one "Grace Hater" here, and if you cannot, then right from the start you are being deceitful. It speaks loudly against your point when you have to use deceiptful practices to make your point.
It is an accusation to subdue rebuttal.

Which never works with people who care more about what Scripture says, than what people think about it. Not being pleasers of men, but servants of Christ.
 

atpollard

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Living under grace is a complete crucifixion of the old man and life. Not just of sin, but of personal will. Even if it is not a transgression of law of God, we still do not do anything, except it be by faith (Rom 14:23).
I agree! I just would have worded it in the affirmative rather than the negative …

We serve a higher Law (Matthew 22:37-40) founded on love, so EVERYTHING we do is motivated by faith (Romans 14:17).
 

atpollard

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Show me one "Grace Hater" here, and if you cannot, then right from the start you are being deceitful. It speaks loudly against your point when you have to use deceiptful practices to make your point.
It was a reference to the DOCTRINES OF GRACE.

Google them for yourself and then ask me again if you still need me to point out people here that HATE the D.O.G. and I will gladly respond. For now, I choose to NOT follow your “bunny trail” into the briar patch just because you ‘dared me to’ by calling me names.

I will note that you quoted the OP but never bothered to discuss what the Bible says or the Doctrines of Grace actually teach about God’s promise to finish what God starts in our salvation … exactly what I accused the “Grace-haters” of doing. So thank you for dropping by to offer a living illustration of what was only a hypothetical in the OP. Your contribution is noted. :cool:
 

atpollard

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Were their any 'Christians' before the cross?
I would say “yes”. The 12 (minus 1 and plus Methias) or the 70 that Jesus sent out. The 3 women that went to the tomb on Sunday morning, and the 200 gathered in the upper room 50 days later (more or less). How many more heard John, repented, met Jesus and lived Christian lives in their homes and with their families outside of Jerusalem … in Capernium? (I don’t know … some?)
 

atpollard

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And James was not known as a 'Judaizer' by the Lord nor His apostles, nor them he wrote to.
I agree. It was a hard needle to thread for me.

On the one hand, I don’t see James saying or doing ANYTHING wrong as a leader in the Bible, so I have no reason to throw any shade at the man.

On the other hand, several times in scripture other “problem children” seem to have associated THEMSELVES with James. So there must have been SOMETHING about James’ ministry that attracted people with ‘Jewish’ issues.

My only intent was to link James’ quoted comment to a Jerusalem/Israelite-Christan context as a possible thought experiment to see if it shed light on the meaning. There had to be SOME reason that Judaisers claimed to come from James … perhaps James always talked about Jewish Christians?
Would that be important for correctly understanding some of the letter from James?
[shrug]
That was all that I was wondering.
I do not advocate that ANY books IN the Bible do not belong. :)
 

atpollard

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Also, Paul was not preaching justification by faith only or alone. No Scripture says that. He was rebuking going on to perfection and justification by the law without faith, or by a false faith and corrupt persuasion that is not from God, but from man. (Gal 5:8)
On this we will have to disagree and take it up in another Topic.
It is quite enough to discuss Perseverance (Preservation) of the Saints and Eternal Security without dragging Justification into the topic except to support some minor point.

Feel free to start a topic on Justification if you really want to get into it.
I am happy to discuss anything except “Limited Atonement” (because it feels WRONG for men to argue and tell GOD who He died for … so I tread lightly when discussing things that really belong 100% to God and Scripture has no ‘smoking gun’ verse either way).
 

TheslightestID

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It is an accusation to subdue rebuttal.

Which never works with people who care more about what Scripture says, than what people think about it. Not being pleasers of men, but servants of Christ.

No, Its a deception to try to discredit those on the other end of this.

Google them for yourself and then ask me again if you still need me to point out people here that HATE the D.O.G. and I will gladly respond. For now, I choose to NOT follow your “bunny trail” into the briar patch just because you ‘dared me to’ by calling me names.

Ask you again about the D.O.G? I never asked you about that to begin with...another deception. It appears neither one of you can answer my question, but only offer more deceipt, making my original point perfectly. See, that is the thing about grace only, as you have shown, those who go that route don't have to be honest, so they tend not too.

Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments" So, yeah, there is a bit more to it than grace.
 

atpollard

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The main point is that I don't see enough Scripture to justify: will complete = will complete no matter what you say or do in future...
Here is where we are closer than it might at first appear.

“No matter what you say or do in the future …”

  • What exactly WILL someone that has been “born from above” say or do in the future?
  • What exactly WILL someone whom God has removed a “heart of stone” and replaced it with a “heart of flesh” say or do in the future?
  • What exactly WILL someone that has had the Law “written on their heart” say or do in the future?
  • What exactly WILL someone that is “a new creation” say or do in the future?

I cannot imagine being completely transformed and WANTING and CHOOSING to live a reprobate and apostate lifestyle. So the whole “live like a sinner and still go to heaven” is anathema to me. The issue is NOT that the sin is unforgivable or the salvation is revoked … the issue is that a NEW creation cannot WILL to do that!
 

atpollard

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Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments" So, yeah, there is a bit more to it than grace.
Straight to the law … “Grace-Hater”. (“My commandments” are not the 10 commandments if you bother to read the context rather than settle for quoting PART of a verse … but Grace-Haters never do.)
 
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robert derrick

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Here is where we are closer than it might at first appear.

“No matter what you say or do in the future …”

  • What exactly WILL someone that has been “born from above” say or do in the future?
  • What exactly WILL someone whom God has removed a “heart of stone” and replaced it with a “heart of flesh” say or do in the future?
  • What exactly WILL someone that has had the Law “written on their heart” say or do in the future?
  • What exactly WILL someone that is “a new creation” say or do in the future?

I cannot imagine being completely transformed and WANTING and CHOOSING to live a reprobate and apostate lifestyle. So the whole “live like a sinner and still go to heaven” is anathema to me. The issue is NOT that the sin is unforgivable or the salvation is revoked … the issue is that a NEW creation cannot WILL to do that!
I cannot imagine

I understand, however, this is the whole problem with your teaching. It doesn't matter what anyone can or cannot imagine. The only thing that matters in the things of God is the things God has said and written for us to know, believe, and do.

You are simply stating an opinion based on your own experience, and attempting to prove a teaching that Scripture does not verify: anyone who confesses faith in Jesus, who ends up turning completely away from Him in word and deed, must not have ever been saved in the first place. They were only professing with lips, not confessing from heart.

Without Scripture to prove your teaching, you have no authority nor right to make that judgment.

No doubt, you probably cannot image what reprobation from God really is: God giving up on a person completely, never to draw and deal with again until the judgment day.

And yet, that is the case plainly stated in Romans 1. And it is stated for them that once knew God.

Now, I must insist, if we are to continue on a fair and honest basis, that you respond to the Scriptures I have given before to you, which to me, prove:

There are those who once knew God, believed Jesus, confessed unto salvation, who have and can turn from God to such a point where God no longer draws them back to Him, nor even remembers their name, which He has blotted out of His book of Life and of the Lamb:

These are just a few Scriptures speaking of them that were saved and turned from God, and their latter end is worse than before Salvation:

(Heb 6:4-8) They tasted of the heavenly gift. They crucified Christ afresh. They are rejected and burned as thorns, even as Jesus prophesied of branches that abide not in Him. (John 15) They so turn from God, that it is become impossible for them to repent and are only awaiting a certain fearful judgment to come. (Heb 10:27)

(2 Peter 2:18-22) Peter warning of false teachers who turn believers from the Lord, who had clean escaped the pollutions of the world by the knowledge of the Lord, and returned once again to their old life of sin, with a latter end worse than before they were saved.

It is better for such in the judgment of God, that they had never believed in the first place.

These are Scriptures of God. Not opinion nor imagination of man. It does not matter whether we can personally fathom it or not, but only to acknowledge it as so, and not only possible, but confirmed: Judas Iscariot is the only example needed as such. A personally chosen apostle by Jesus, later called by Jesus the son of perdition. (John 17)
 
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TEXBOW

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I think we get into trouble when we impute man's limited logic on God. God is not bound to man's logic.
 

robert derrick

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No, Its a deception to try to discredit those on the other end of this.



Ask you again about the D.O.G? I never asked you about that to begin with...another deception. It appears neither one of you can answer my question, but only offer more deceipt, making my original point perfectly. See, that is the thing about grace only, as you have shown, those who go that route don't have to be honest, so they tend not too.

Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments" So, yeah, there is a bit more to it than grace.
I would call it justification by grace. We are both saved and justified by grace (Rom 3:24), but salvation is by faith first, and justification is by works following. (James 2)

So, I wouldn't call it something more than grace, but rather something commanded by God that is only obeyed by grace.

And IF such works and fulfillment of the royal law are not following, or have ceased, then God by grace cannot save what no longer is alive to save: faith that is now dead.

God only saves a soul by grace through faith in the heart. IF faith dies from the heart, then nothing for God in the soul to save.
 

robert derrick

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I think we get into trouble when we impute man's limited logic on God. God is not bound to man's logic.
I believe such a statement of "I can't imagine" to be proof of a mind that thinks their own thinking matters to the Word of God.

We are not called to imagine anything, only to believe and do what is plainly written.

Mary was not wrong for not being able to imagine how she would give birth to the Son, but in the end she needed to dismiss imagination and simply believe the word spoken to her.

We all must do that at some point or another.
 
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