Grace vs Legalism

[CharismaticLady]

I keep thinking about this part of your comment.

I don't see apathy towards sin as being from the new man, and therefore I'd call apathy towards sin to be itself a manifestation of sin from the flesh. It's source is the old man. And we are the new creation, called to put off the old man, and put on the new man.

And then there is the label of apathy that maintains, if you don't think sin can remove you from salvation which you currently have, then you are apathetic about sin. But that's non sequitor. You can be fully opposed to sin, yet not believe that God will cast away His begotten children.

Much love!

Yes, it is a sin from the flesh. But there are many in the OSAS camp that believe just because they go to church they are saved, even though they are carnal and apathetic towards their lifestyle and always have been. That is the danger or such a doctrine without explaining true salvation.

I remember one man I used to debate with on another forum that believed as you do, and we came to the understanding and agreement that OTSAS. Once truly saved, always saved.

 

[marks]

Yes, apathy.

What Christian is apathetic towards sin?

 

[marks]

Our spirit has gone from mortal to immortal. I know some believe everyone's spirit has been eternal always, but I don't.

And just to clarify, can never become mortal again?

 

[marks]

I remember one man I used to debate with on another forum that believed as you do, and we came to the understanding and agreement that OTSAS. Once truly saved, always saved.

For me . . .

OSAS = OTSAS

 

[CharismaticLady]

What Christian is apathetic towards sin?

Pseudo-Christians. Those who teach as Behold teaches, that Jesus has our sin, so any acts of the flesh we do now are done without penalty.

 

[CharismaticLady]

For me . . .

OSAS = OTSAS

But you are OTSAS, and so am I; but others are not who believe in OSAS. It is for their sake I call this the most dangerous doctrine in the Church

 

[CharismaticLady]

And just to clarify, can never become mortal again?

Right, so this is why that verse in 2 Peter 2 is alarming to me. Do you understand what I mean? It would have been better for them if they never had become immortal in their spirit.

If someone whose spirit has become immortal, and then goes back into willful sinning, and dies in that unrepentant state, they will be in hell forever. Those unsaved with a mortal spirit will be destroyed immediately.

 

[marks]

Pseudo-Christians. Those who teach as Behold teaches, that Jesus has our sin, so any acts of the flesh we do now are done without penalty.

And your view is that if we commit sin now, it separates us from God, and we spiritually die again, ceasing to be reborn. This is correct?

Much love!

 

[marks]

But you are OTSAS, and so am I; but others are not who believe in OSAS. It is for their sake I call this the most dangerous doctrine in the Church

Look at what you are saying.

OSAS Once saved always saved, but your objection is ONRSNAS, Once not really saved, not always saved.

 

[marks]

Right, so this is why that verse in 2 Peter 2 is alarming to me. Do you understand what I mean? It would have been better for them if they never had become immortal in their spirit.

If someone whose spirit has become immortal, and then goes back into willful sinning, and dies in that unrepentant state, they will be in hell forever. Those unsaved with a mortal spirit will be destroyed immediately.

I think you have to look at who he is addressing this to. These are after the flesh, not the Spirit. And annihilation of the wicked, certainly debatable! And some straightforward statements, too.

This line of thinking reminds me of @Episkopos , I think his view is that those who have not been born again will cease to exist, and that the redeemed who fail (he has his definition what that means, I'll let him fill that in) end up forever in outer darkness in torment and pain.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

And your view is that if we commit sin now, it separates us from God, and we spiritually die again, ceasing to be reborn. This is correct?

Much love!

I believe it would take a lot to completely reject Christ and go back into perdition as in Hebrews 10:26-39. For me, if I fail to act immediately on a sin that is unintentionally committed, but it comes to my attention, God's voice is silent. But when I completely reverse the sin, I hear Him clearly again. He's already told me I am being held to a higher level of obedience, due to the office He told me He was giving me, so this may not be the case for everyone.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Look at what you are saying.

OSAS Once saved always saved, but your objection is ONRSNAS, Once not really saved, not always saved.

Correct, but they BELIEVE they are OSAS, when they were never saved to begin with. Understand?

This is a different topic than the dog returning to his vomit. That is complete apostasy AFTER being truly saved.

 

[marks]

If someone whose spirit has become immortal, and then goes back into willful sinning, and dies in that unrepentant state, they will be in hell forever. Those unsaved with a mortal spirit will be destroyed immediately.

I'm still not satisfied with your idea of sin. Isn't God completely holy? Won't the life He gives to us be completely holy? Won't the living of the life He gives to us be in complete holiness?

And if these are so, then how can we ascribe the life that God gives us to be the source of sin - any sin of any description?

Isn't it true that if our behavior or thoughts vary in the slightest from complete holiness, that this cannot have it's source in God, or in the life He gives us?

And so then what is the source of even sins we may tend to excuse as minor, insignificant, is any sin insignificant? Even the "smallest" sin you can think of . . . cannot find it's source in God, or His work in us.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

I think you have to look at who he is addressing this to. These are after the flesh, not the Spirit. And annihilation of the wicked, certainly debatable! And some straightforward statements, too.

This line of thinking reminds me of @Episkopos , I think his view is that those who have not been born again will cease to exist, and that the redeemed who fail (he has his definition what that means, I'll let him fill that in) end up forever in outer darkness in torment and pain.

Much love!

I like @Episkopas, but I'm not on the same page with him in Eschotology. This is my own view after reading many parables of the chaff and bundles of tares being burned up and destroyed. Also knowing that hell was not made for man, but for the immortal fallen angels, who knew God, personally, and still betrayed Him.

 

[marks]

Correct, but they BELIEVE they are OSAS, when they were never saved to begin with. Understand?

This is a different topic than the dog returning to his vomit. That is complete apostasy AFTER being truly saved.

So your issue is not with OSAS, rather, with a false conversion, correct?

 

[marks]

I believe it would take a lot to completely reject Christ and go back into perdition as in Hebrews 10:26-39. For me, if I fail to act immediately on a sin that is unintentionally committed, but it comes to my attention, God's voice is silent. But when I completely reverse the sin, I hear Him clearly again. He's already told me I am being held to a higher level of obedience, due to the office He told me He was giving me, so this may not be the case for everyone.

That's the passage, Hebrews 10:26. You can't go back and offer a sheep or a goat after you've learned about Jesus. There remains no sacrifice for sins, ie, this is IT. Jesus or nothing.

I believe that God has very personal and individual relationships with each of us, and I think it's good to stick to the specifics of Scripture without letting it get colored by my own individual experience and perceptions of God. The Scriptures will always stay with what's common to all of us I think, but I don't find it productive look in someone else for what God is doing with me apart from that.

And Scripture is to define me, not my experiences and perceptions.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

I'm still not satisfied with your idea of sin. Isn't God completely holy? Won't the life He gives to us be completely holy? Won't the living of the life He gives to us be in complete holiness?

What makes you think that those with the Spirit of God indwelling them cannot be holy in this lifetime? Hebrews 12:14

And if these are so, then how can we ascribe the life that God gives us to be the source of sin - any sin of any description?

The source of sin??? Where did this thought come from??? I don't remember saying anything along this line of reasoning?

Isn't it true that if our behavior or thoughts vary in the slightest from complete holiness, that this cannot have it's source in God, or in the life He gives us?

The thought could be from Satan, but it is only sin if you stop and dwell on it so that it could lead to action. James 1:14-15. Resist Satan (and his thoughts) and he will flee from you.

And so then what is the source of even sins we may tend to excuse as minor, insignificant, is any sin insignificant? Even the "smallest" sin you can think of . . . cannot find it's source in God, or His work in us.

I really can't relate to what sin that would be. You have control of your mind.

Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. Phil. 4:8

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @marks.

My view of Hebrews 6 is that it speaks of the eternal security of the "true" believer, actually.

Verses 9-20 show forth Jesus as being the anchor for the soul, as He has entered into that which is behind the veil. It is a twice immutable thing that God will keep the one who clings to Jesus in faith.

Verses 1-8 show forth the importance of clinging to Jesus so that you do not fall away.

If anyone clings to Jesus, Jesus is an anchor for his soul.

But if anyone does not cling to Him, they may very well indeed fall away. Sin is deceitful and hardening, Hebrews 3:12-13.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So your issue is not with OSAS, rather, with a false conversion, correct?

Yes, but so many are told they are saved when they aren't. And if they are also taught, OSAS, then they are in a false assurance.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That's the passage, Hebrews 10:26. You can't go back and offer a sheep or a goat after you've learned about Jesus. There remains no sacrifice for sins, ie, this is IT. Jesus or nothing.

I believe that God has very personal and individual relationships with each of us, and I think it's good to stick to the specifics of Scripture without letting it get colored by my own individual experience and perceptions of God. The Scriptures will always stay with what's common to all of us I think, but I don't find it productive look in someone else for what God is doing with me apart from that.

And Scripture is to define me, not my experiences and perceptions.

Much love!

It seems we still disagree that not all sin is willful. I'll keep my Old Testament definitions - our schoolmaster.