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The one who does not cling to Jesus in faith can evidently fall away according to verses 1-8.
But the one who does cling, cannot fall away: Jesus is the anchor of his soul.
Yes, a person can have faith and then fall away (Luke 8:13).
Whether such a person is truly saved or not is a side issue. For all practical purposes they are saved; while they are not of the elect. Because they have faith.
So let's look at it from a practical perspective. You say you have faith; and that this means that you are eternally secure. But can you be certain that your faith isn't the kind of faith that is spoken of in Luke 8:13?
Are you saved merely because you have faith? Are you eternally secure merely because you have faith?
Because the person in Luke 8:13 has faith and according to you is not saved.
So that means you can have faith in Jesus and not be saved. How then will you be saved?
But if a person is saved by grace through faith, then the person who has faith in Luke 8:13 is saved while they have that faith.
Because it is shallow, lukewarm, or nominal, their faith will not last, it will not stand the test, the person will fall away when they are tempted or when trouble arises because of the word.
Do they then continue to be saved? To say that they do is to believe in heresy.
If you say that they were never saved in the first place, at least they didn't fall away then, did they?
See the verse:
Luk 8:13, They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Read one verse further . . .
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
The writer is not speaking of things that accompany salvation. They are persuaded of better things than these, and things that accompany salvation.
All of these things,
were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
All of these are seen in Jesus' ministry to the Jews. Consider . . . all those He taught, and healed, and shared His ministry with, the 12, the 70, the multitudes healed and delivered from unclean spirits.
Think of Judas. He experienced all these things, and fell away. The Pharisees, rejected all of this, to be rejected themselves. All those who experienced the Son of God.
But whether this is specifically what it's referring to, or something different . . . these are not what accompanies salvation.
Much love!
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
These have NO root. Only an emotional experience. Even the demons believe! Testing shows who is genuine, according to Peter.
Matthew 13
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Much love!
By salvation, here, I believe that the author of Hebrews is referring to being elected by God.
If the person who has faith may not be saved, what is a man saved by?
There is salvation and there is salvation.
One is when a person for all practical purposes has made a decision to believe in and follow Christ; but has no root in themselves. They still believe.
The other is when God has chosen them from before the foundation of the world to gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven. These will persevere to the end.
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I don't agree.
Being regenerate is so entirely different from remaining unregenerate.
You may say anything you like, however, saying you have faith does not save you. Relying on Jesus for life, receiving Him as Lord, however you want to describe what we do, we come to God in repentance, believing His Word, and He renders us innocent, and gives us new life. And that new life is forever, as I understand it.
In being reborn we are secure in Him, our Father.
Can we really say that shallow, lukeward, nominal faith is saving faith? Does God give us rebirth because we have a 'nominal faith'? We say we have faith but we don't?
I don't think so myself.
Much love!
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
I know I'm going in for a brain MRI because of a brain tumor, but I usually understand plain English. This I can't make heads nor tail of. Maybe rephrase. What are you getting at. My question is we are to walk in the Spirit. Do you think it possible to quit walking in the Spirit? And then go back into the Spirit another day?
When I speak of salvation in these terms (not being saved from a storm, for instance), what I am referring to is the we receive Jesus, and God gives us forgiveness and rebirth. We become a new person who didn't exist before, begotten of God, and no longer of the line of Adam. Being born God's child, we inherit Sonship with Jesus by adoption, and we receive His nature by birth.
And I don't thing there is a lesser or greater version of that.
Much love!
Simply stated, I don't believe that any sin, whatsoever, results from our walking in the Spirit of God.
We can compare ourselves to the Love Chapter, to the Fruit of the Spirit, anything less than these is not the Spirit.
The fruit of the spirit is gentleness. If we are not being gentle, that's not the Spirit, and if it's not the Spirit, it's the flesh, and do we have power over the flesh?
I suggest that simply in resting in Jesus, gentleness wraps us like a blanket. And so on.
Much love!
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
1 John 1:7 pulled me up quickly from thinking like that. What type of sin is Jesus still cleansing us from? Isn't all our past sin already cleansed? This person is walking in the Spirit at the same time!
I would point out from this that a man may believe that he is saved and yet may not be. He may for all practical purposes be a Christian and yet not be saved.
How then, is this doctrine, called eternal security, any kind of security?
How can anyone be certain that their assurance isn't a false one?
Past sin? Or all sin?
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
All sin. Meaning, any and every and all sin. No matter of what description. That which is not of faith is sin. If you know the good you should do and don't do it, this is sin.
All sin.
Much love!
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
@marks
Here are two verses which we each can say proves our point.
Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Luke 3:17
His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.”
One indicates that the chaff is burned UP (destroyed), and the other indicates it keeps on burning. So we have to keep an open mind. I rarely fight my stance. I just hope that my unsaved acquaintances are just destroyed quickly.
Here are two verses which we each can say proves our point.
Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Luke 3:17
His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.”
One indicates that the chaff is burned UP (destroyed), and the other indicates it keeps on burning. So we have to keep an open mind. I rarely fight my stance. I just hope that my unsaved acquaintances are just destroyed quickly.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
All past sin.
1 John 1:9 is how to BECOME a Christian, meaning only once, and you are born again and filled with the Spirit.
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