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justbyfaith

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You've just said a mouthful!

Are there people who believe that the Holy Spirit is testifying with their spirits that they are children of God, and are not?

This is one of those hypotheticals, it can be turned this way or that way.



Does this mean you find it impossible to know whether you are, or you are not a child of God?

Much love!
I have been pointing out that in Luke 8:13, the people who end up falling away do "believe for a while"

Do you think that God would withhold the assurance spoken of in Romans 8:16 from them simply because they will not make it to the end? I don't. I believe that the Lord gives Romans 8:16 assurance to everyone who actually believes.
 

marks

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Those who teach grace as a license for sin, teach that grace covers you even if you sin willfully against the Lord. They do not touch on the fact that real grace transforms a man so that he does not live the way that he did before. They teach false doctrines such as "the inevitability of sin" and that repentance is not a requirement for salvation. They teach that sinning is of no consequence to the believer; that there are no consequences for sinning against the Lord. They teach that grace is a license for immorality...that anything goes once you are a believer....you can do anything you want. And that this also applies to those who still want to do ungodly things.
I certainly hope you aren't posting this as some sort of representation of what I believe and teach.

The only place I see sin to be inevitable is when we for whatever reason stop living in the sure knowledge of our justification, that is, that we are completely and thoroughly forgiven of all sin for all time. And then, when we start thinking that sin is going to be a problem between me and God, we have moved from the tree of Life to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Instead of living according to the life of Christ, we are now trying to live according to our conscience, or according to some version of law. That's what our conscience is, an imperfect law written in our hearts. But notice in Romans 2, we excuse ourselves and accuse others. We don't have wisdom in our application of law, not to ourselves, not to others.

Living according the knowledge of good and evil is living rating what we do and think, deciding whether we are right or wrong, and trying to amend our thoughts and actions to conform. And when we find non-conformance, we then want to take the next right action, and make it right with God.

Since we've been reconciled to God already, and now have been reborn in His pattern, righteous and holy, trying to serve law is not what is meant for us. The law is given for the ungodly. We are dead to the Law, but alive in Christ. We are dead unto sin, but alive unto God, in Jesus Christ our Lord.

The motions of sin in our members, which were by the law . . .

If we're living that way, as if under law, of any sort, aside from the Law of Love, personally serving Jesus not by a list of commands, but by His working in us, living under law is not walking in the Spirit. It's based on the idea that I'm monitoring myself to keep myself obedient and acceptable to God.

Living that way pretty much makes sin inevitable, because if this describes us, that I'm in any way "keeping myself saved" by not sinning, or, 'not letting sin go unabated for so long that . . . my faith dies / God casts me out / fill in the blank, then I've fallen from grace, and now I'm walking according to the flesh, as if I weren't born again, as if I were still unregenerate.

2 Peter 1
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The only "inevitability of sin" in the believer's life I find is if and when we might cease to practice an active faith, I think this is best described in looking away from Jesus and onto the waves. And then we have a choice. We can refocus on Jesus, otherwise, we're going to try to find our own way, and that will inevitably lead us to "what should I do/should not do?"

Outside of an active walk in faith, we'll answer that question out of our flesh, according to our imperfect knowledge of good and evil, and what I need to do to deal with this, and then, on the heels of that sin, what do I need to do to fix things with God, and until we get back to life in Christ, we are in the wrong tree.

Much love!
 

marks

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I have been pointing out that in Luke 8:13, the people who end up falling away do "believe for a while"

That's quite the leap to say that those who aren't actually saved, that God tells them they are.

Do you think that God would withhold the assurance spoken of in Romans 8:16 from them simply because they will not make it to the end? I don't. I believe that the Lord gives Romans 8:16 assurance to everyone who actually believes.

This is where we part ways.

All true children of God will endure.

Much love!
 

marks

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This was in my lunchtime reading:

Jeremiah 17
5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.
8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

The more I read through this passage, the more I see relevant to this discussion.

Much love!
 

justbyfaith

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That's quite the leap to say that those who aren't actually saved, that God tells them they are.



This is where we part ways.

All true children of God will endure.

Much love!
So then, in your opinion, there are those who believe who are not truly children of God?
 

Behold

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What does licentiousness mean to you, that you believe grace is licentiousness?


Its not the word that is the issue.
Its the twisting of Jude's statement..
He is saying....."evil men have subverted the understanding of GRACE, and have caused people to think that Grace, if taught correctly, is licentiousness".

Paraphrase.....>"Legalsist and Heretics , led by the devil, have taught baby Christians the idea that Grace is "greasy" and "hyper", when its taught CORRECTLY.

See it?

The liars have created the idea that you are teaching licentiousness (license to sin) when you teach that Grace is God's GIFT, and you dont earn it, and its FREE.
This same issue was happening to Paul.
These same lying heretics were saying about Paul's teaching of Grace, that he was teaching license to sin....
"Paul is preaching that we are to sin, so that Grace will come".
So, its the same lie, but now they call it "license to sin". or "teaching licentiousness".

But what Jude is explaining, is that these liars have created the idea that if you preach GRACE as He taught it and Paul delivered it, you are teaching Licentiousness.
Thats the devil's lie.
He's been telling it for 2000 yrs.
 

Behold

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I agree, which is why I said:

That revelation knowledge is understanding His Word.

God's word is all spiritual revelation.
The Spirit of God gave it, and spiritual men wrote it down.
Its being revealed all the time to the person who can discern it.

"the word of God is spiritually discerned"..
 

Behold

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Those who teach grace as a license for sin, teach that grace covers you even if you sin willfully against the Lord.

ITs best not to pretend that all your sinning is an accident.
I beg to differ. Nearly every sin you have committed this month, was known to you and willful.
If you deny this, then you just sinned again, on a public forum.
Resit that sin, and maybe the devil will flee from you.

Here me clearly.
ALL sin is resolved by the Blood of Jesus, including your next 456.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Its not the word that is the issue.
Its the twisting of Jude's statement..
He is saying....."evil men have subverted the understanding of GRACE, and have caused people to think that Grace, if taught correctly, is licentiousness".

Paraphrase.....>"Legalsist and Heretics , led by the devil, have taught baby Christians the idea that Grace is "greasy" and "hyper", when its taught CORRECTLY.

See it?

The liars have created the idea that you are teaching licentiousness (license to sin) when you teach that Grace is God's GIFT, and you dont earn it, and its FREE.
This same issue was happening to Paul.
These same lying heretics were saying about Paul's teaching of Grace, that he was teaching license to sin....
"Paul is preaching that we are to sin, so that Grace will come".
So, its the same lie, but now they call it "license to sin". or "teaching licentiousness".

But what Jude is explaining, is that these liars have created the idea that if you preach GRACE as He taught it and Paul delivered it, you are teaching Licentiousness.
Thats the devil's lie.
He's been telling it for 2000 yrs.

That's what I was afraid you meant. No, it is when grace is taught as you are teaching it - INCORRECTLY. Yes, the Word of God is spiritually discerned, so why can't you understand God's holiness? He is not going to keep us in a carnal state where His Son just pays our punishment. NO! He is going to change our fallen nature, itself, and empowers us to not even commit the act of the flesh. That is what is meant by born again. It is not just a catchy phrase, but literally a supernatural change in our desires.

Here is my analogy of what it is like when our carnal nature is baptized in the Holy Spirit and born again: "It is like being born with the nature of a lion, loving to kill, and having only a taste for blood and fresh meat. But the law says to not kill and only eat grass. Then that lion becomes born again into a divine new creature, a lamb. The lamb never desires to kill and loves to only eat fresh green grass. Therefore that law to not kill and eat only grass is very easy for the lamb, but impossible for the lion." You see, the lamb couldn't kill and eat meat and blood even once. It has no desire to. It is not in their nature. We do what comes naturally: either that of a lion, or that of a lamb. You can’t be both.

Does the lamb eat grass in order to go to heaven; or because he loves grass?
 

Behold

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That's what I was afraid you meant. No, it is when grace is taught as you are teaching it - INCORRECTLY.

I teach Paul's version of Grace.
He received it from Jesus.
That Colossians 2:13 is true, "all" sin is forgiven, and we have permanent peace with God, only and strictly based on the eternal redemption that is gained by Christ, and given to all who are born again as "the gift of Righteousness".
If you teach that any self effort is to be attached to God's Salvation or God's Grace, then if you are born again, you are "fallen from Grace", are in opposition to the Cross, are a Truth Denier, and are a devout heretic. Legalist.
See, you can't add anything to the Blood of Jesus, as a part that you are to do, to be saved or to stay saved.
There is NO SIN that is not dealt with, already, by the Blood of Jesus, including tomorrows.
GRACE has no missing part that you are to fill in by lifestyle, or self effort.
If you think it does, and you teach that it does, then you are cursed of God and are a Galatians 1:8.
 

marks

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So then, in your opinion, there are those who believe who are not truly children of God?
Even the demons believe, and shudder!

They are not saved. Someone who says, Yes! This sounds great! and they say the prayer, and go home, but they haven't actually committed themself to God in faith, and aren't born again, these, when they are put to the test, fail, because they are not actually reborn.

Much love!
 

marks

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The liars have created the idea that you are teaching licentiousness (license to sin) when you teach that Grace is God's GIFT, and you dont earn it, and its FREE.
I've seen this for years.

It's very unfortunate. Sin doesn't matter between me and God, or shall I say, it matters in the same way a tumor matters, or pneumonia. If I'm eating the wrong thing, it's hurting me, and God would have me eat was does not hurt me.

If I'm thinking the wrong thing, it can hurt me also.

So we need right thinking.

And right thinking is that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Right thinking it that even when we were His enemies, He reconciled us to Himself, so how much more reconciliation do we think we need?

If we will rest in His Word, we have fullness of joy!

Much love!
 

marks

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He is not going to keep us in a carnal state where His Son just pays our punishment. NO! He is going to change our fallen nature, itself, and empowers us to not even commit the act of the flesh. That is what is meant by born again. It is not just a catchy phrase, but literally a supernatural change in our desires.
You act as if this isn't what we're saying.

What's up with that?
 

CharismaticLady

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I teach Paul's version of Grace.
He received it from Jesus.
That Colossians 2:13 is true, "all" sin is forgiven, and we have permanent peace with God, only and strictly based on the eternal redemption that is gained by Christ, and given to all who are born again as "the gift of Righteousness".
If you teach that any self effort is to be attached to God's Salvation or God's Grace, then if you are born again, you are "fallen from Grace", are in opposition to the Cross, are a Truth Denier, and are a devout heretic. Legalist.
See, you can't add anything to the Blood of Jesus, as a part that you are to do, to be saved or to stay saved.
There is NO SIN that is not dealt with, already, by the Blood of Jesus, including tomorrows.
GRACE has no missing part that you are to fill in by lifestyle, or self effort.
If you think it does, and you teach that it does, then you are cursed of God and are a Galatians 1:8.

Tomorrow's sin? Why not use the power that is the Spirit of God in you to not commit it in the first place? Why not be holy as the seed of the Father makes you?

That "tomorrow's sin" is how you teach licentiousness. You teach tomorrows sin is covered.

You are NOT teaching Paul. Paul taught that sin is dead. Those who keep sinning he says in Romans 6:
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

You are teaching that tomorrow's sin leads to life, not death. That is NOT Paul.
 

CharismaticLady

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Is it then your thinking that the best way to prevent tomorrow's sin is to believe that it will condemn you?

It is that assumption you will always sin that Paul doesn't teach.

I have the Spirit of God in me. I won't be committing willful sin tomorrow. Will you? You do know that when you became a Christian, your PAST sins were cleansed, and you were given a new nature that likes grass. I won't be killing anything tomorrow because I crave the taste for blood.
 

marks

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You are NOT teaching Paul.
The reality is, Paul taught that everything that is not of faith is sin, and by what you say, you place the OT definitions of Law as greater than Paul's teaching of faith. How is that not so?

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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The reality is, Paul taught that everything that is not of faith is sin, and by what you say, you place the OT definitions of Law as greater than Paul's teaching of faith. How is that not so?

Much love!

That "faith" is not against your nature. Whatever is against your new nature is sin. The eternal laws of God are written on the hearts of the born again to do them NATURALLY. Therefore, if I haven't gone against my conscience, then I have kept the laws written on my heart. 1 John 3:21-24

Behold can say, the sin I commit tomorrow, I have faith that it is NOT sin. That is turning the grace of God into licentiousness! Why "like" those posts?
 
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marks

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I have the Spirit of God in me. I won't be committing willful sin tomorrow. Will you? You do know that when you became a Christian, your PAST sins were cleansed, and you were given a new nature that likes grass. I won't be killing anything tomorrow because I crave the taste for blood.
You persist in parsing sin that the Bible does not parse.

That which is not of faith is sin.

I've explored your idea that sins unto death and sins not unto death reflect the division in the law of sins that can be covered by sacrifice, and those that cannot, and that these are either "willful" or "unintentional" sins.

I've pointed out that the sins of stealing and lying are intentional and premeditated, and were covered by sacrifice. This definition disagrees with Paul's clear statement, so as a definition of intentional and unintentional sin, it's not internally consistent.

At the end of the day, I believe that No Sin comes from the Spirit of God, so when you sin of any description, it did not find it's source with God, His Spirit, or the new creation He's made you to be. And if it doesn't come from there, there's only one other option, your flesh. Whatever that sin is.

That which is not of faith is sin. So rather, instead of, did I do anything that was against . . . the 10 commandments / the Law / the Sermon on the Mount / the "these will not inherit" list / any other list of rules, instead of that, did I do anything today that was not out of my trust in God?

If we fail to recognize when we stop trusting, which is when we start sinning, then we may realize later, Oh, I committed sin, not realizing it.

So then isn't the answer not to check our behavior against a list, instead, why not become more self aware of when we start to move out of our faith into pride, or fear, or envy, or whatever it is.

And I continue to think that if there are sins you may be committing that you consider unintentional, that a greater self-awareness can prevent these also.

The final answer is faith and love. If were are trusting God in loving others, this is the will of God.

Much love!
 

marks

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Behold can say, the sin I commit tomorrow, I have faith that it is NOT sin. That is turning the grace of God into licentiousness! Why "like" those posts?
You and I don't even seem to agree on what sin actually is. And how it is eliminated, not just some, but all.