Guide To The Post Tribulation

[Taken]

So, you're basically saying you have final say in regards to what scripture 'applies' to you.

Basically Correct.

In other words...if you don't particularly like the Church authority you're supposed to sit under, you can give yourself a pass. With 'Gods okay' of course. Which no one else could possibly back up...they'd have to trust your say so.

No. Not in your "words".
What does what "you" say have to do with "me"? Nothing.

That just smells a little dodgy to me, and not exactly something I feel you could prove via scripture.

What "you" said, (for me), is not what "I said", so ya sure, what "you said", I agree, "smells doggy".

We can say that not all scripture is about us.

You can say that.
And I can say: I decide what Scriptures APPLY to me.

But all of it speaks to our life in one way or another. Because all of it speaks towards God's character, or sin character. We have one, and we are constantly trying to be in relationship with God. That makes all of scripture "profitable".

Of course ALL Scripture IS profitable. I never said otherwise.

I speak for myself.
All Scripture does not Apply to me.
Scripture itself Determines WHAT Applies to a Person.
A person Freely chooses what he believes and DOES.
It is BY the Individual's Choices, BY Which The Individual determines WHAT Applies TO Him.

Scripture has Three Basic components given of God;
Laws
Statutes
Precepts

Laws- are moreso specific People/Area.
(Can be Common Rules, written, distributed regarding Specific People/Area)
The Law of Moses was specifically Given TO Gods People, Tribes. It didn't matter What Area they lived or moved to, the Law was TO them FOR Them.)

Statutes- ( of God ) are moreso Broader, written and Have A range applibility to All people, whether or Not All believe it or apply it to Themselves.

Precepts- a precept is intended to regulate Behavior and Thoughts.

Anyone can Profit from Reading Scripture to Grasp Gods INTENT for LAWS given to a Particular People; Grasp Gods INTENT for His Written (BY God Himself) Statutes; and Grasp Gods INTENT to regulate Behaviors and Thoughts.....Between An Individual and God...and Between A man and A man.

The Structure is seen all throughout Scripture:
"IF" an Individual DOES "this"..."then" the RESULT of what the Individual Will Be..."that".

It is an "IF"..."THEN" will Apply...scenario.

The "IF" is solely an Individual's CHOICE.
The "THEN" is Expressly what WILL Apply to the Individual.

Neh 9:
[14] And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

I see this as a logic fallacy. Some places on earth are already under the greatest persecution or 'tribulation' imaginable.

It has nothing to do with Logic.
It has everything to do with Prophecy that Shall come to pass.
"Some places" ? That is a far cry Form the Whole World.

Drought, starvation, war, pestilence, poverty, fear, terrorism. They die even now, having chosen for Christ or not.

^ THAT is not a phenomenon. "Isolated places" ( aka/ "some places" ) all over the world Have Experienced those things FOR centuries.

"They" do not "need" a special 3.5 years. Why would the rest of the world?

NEED? WHO said anything about "NEED"?

It is About Dividing "ALL" the "they's"...aka ALL People.

Already addressed this:
All people suffer Tribulations/trials/hardships, during "their" individual lifetimes. (For all kinds of things).
God HAS been DIVIDING People and Separating the DIVIDED since the Beginning of mankind.
God has Set the TIMES AND ORDER AND WAY He Wiil SEPARATE The DIVIDED. (With Him From Without Him).
Anyone can Learn His times, order, ways and Believe it or not.

Which 1 Cor 15 tells us is AT Christ's second coming. He 'hands over the kingdom to the Father' AFTER defeating the last enemy; death.

Death is defeated at the Rapture, which again, is at his return.

No, Death IS NOT Defeated AT the Rapture.
The Rapture IS "A Specific Time, Order, Way",
"Christ" Jesus IS "redeeming" (taking, claiming, calling to meet Him)... HIS Bride.

No, the Rapture IS NOT, "Jesus", the Son of man's RETURN TO Earth.

The Son of Man Left Earth.
The Son of Man (With Power), will Return "TO Earth"...

Do you not understand?
Heaven...Clouds....Earth are 3 Different Places?
It is the Son of man that CAME to Earth...
It is the Son of man that RETURNS To Earth...

And we know, from Rev 20, that when death is defeated, it is cast into the lake of fire, which is after the 1000 years.

Already addressed that.

It's not about 'hours'. It's about fellowship with our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Hour is simply a measurement of time.
Multiple hours is Increase of Time Spent Fellowshipping...which I believe Scripture IS clear IS spending Time to the Glory of God.

And No...I do not believe that Time Spent with Others Glorifying God IS EXCLUSIVE, to spending Time with ONLY those IN Christ.

Paul mentions the importance of this, so I don't dismiss it.

Neither do or did I dismiss that. I do not require to be in a man-made Church Building to fellowship with other Converted people, nor is that where I expect to speak the Word of God to non-believers.

And even if you disagree with you Pastor on some things, any Pastor worth his salt is happy to discuss such things,

I just told you, I do Not go to A Church, so why would you think I have a Pastor?

I have Friends that are Pastors, and Friends that are Converted, and Friends that Are Not Converted. My own Mother had her Degree in Theology.

thus you have a teaching, growing, iron sharpening iron moment. It's hard to have those when you're by yourself.

How did you come to a conclusion, I was by myself? I didn't say that. I have the Perfect Teacher, Christ Jesus, and simply do not feel a need to go to a man-made Church, when daily I take advantage of reading, studying, Gods Word and have exchanges with others, ANY Time or place.

True, the Spirit whispers, but the NT clearly encourages us to be in fellowship, so I believe that is better. No judgement though, I know for some people it just isn't feasible.

You seem to be Under the impression Fellowship is Limited to an approx 150 hours per year, an average person spends in Church.
Seems we have a different idea of what Fellowship means. I believe Fellowship can be Any Time or place.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

This statement is very confused.
Rapture? Where is any prophecy that says the Lord will rapture His people to heaven?

Death was defeated at the Cross, but it will not be no more until after the Millennium, Rev 21:4
1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy for after the GWT, no one receives immortality before then.

Well, if you read my post again, you will note I never actually say that "the Lord will rapture his people to heaven".
But, if my statement confused you, I'll explain it again, showing the scriptures this time:


But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:20–26

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed....When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:50–52, 54

Okay, what we are seeing in this passage is obvious. AT Christ's return, we receive our 'firstfruit' bodies, as Christ already received his. THEN comes the end, as he has just defeated the last enemy. We can know this because it tells us. WHEN 'we are changed in the twinkling of an eye', THEN death is swallowed up in victory. The very act of both dead Christians and still alive Christians receiving their resurrection bodies is the final blow to death. Thus, Christ has then defeated all rule, authority and power, and will then hand over 'the Kingdom' to his Father.
But, some may say, how do we know this happens AT Christ's return, and not 1000 years afterwards? There are several verses that corroborate the 'Rapture'...what is commonly know as the snatching up and changing of Christians both dead and alive, with Christ's second coming AND the judgements of living and dead; just and unjust.

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. -1 Thessalonians 4:16–17

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats....And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:31–32, 46

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:12–15

1 Thess 4 shows us that the believing dead are raised at the SAME time as those alive in Christ. AT his second coming. And Matt 25 and Rev 20 show that living just and unjust; dead just and unjust are judged AT the same time.
And Rev 20 clearly puts the death of death, which again, is referred to in 1 Cor 15 as being AT Christ's second coming...as something that happens at the moment when we shake off the 'imperishable'.
All these verses link this event as one and the same, not two played with a 1000 year in between, or even 3 with a 7 year gap, then a 1000 year gap.
And no...I don't think the bible tells us that we'll be "Raptured" into heaven. Just to meet the Lord in the air. And like citizens who have gone out of a city to welcome an important dignitary, we'll then return with him to earth, either a remade one, or to watch him remake it. And the New Jerusalem, which he is even now preparing for us, will come down out of heaven; Rev 21:2

 

[Naomi25]

If I were here to "make friends", I'd have to nod my head with all your misinformation/disinformation, so that won't happen. I'm here to tell the TRUTH about Scripture, including Prophetic topics, -- kinda like how when Peter had his "view" of what Jesus should do, Jesus rebuked him and called him "satan".

Bobby Jo

Ah, I see. So, you justify being rude because you tell yourself you're standing up for 'truth'.
Truth is good, truth is essential. But part of 'truth' is love, and kindness, and patience and understanding. Without those things...you're just a clashing gong.

 

[Naomi25]

The church is the body of Christ. A saint is one who follows this body of Christ while alive. Some call for the "living church". I doubt that is a thing. We are not perfect, until we die in Christ and present with the Lord. A saint would be the church alive on earth, thus we use saint and not "living church". Any follower of Jesus during the judgments are literally accepting the Lamb. It is clearly stated that Jesus as the Lamb will be directly involved in the harvest of humanity. It will be on earth, just as Jesus was gathering the OT saints who would die, before the day on the Cross. After the Cross saints were the NT church. Understanding that in the 6th seal, the Lamb will come in person, is the key here.

The seal was not just opened to scare people. As for it being the very day of wrath, is not a given. No one dies at all in the text of the 6th seal. The death and harvest of the seals was done in the 4th seal. We are not given any time frames, because the 6th seal is the surprise "thief in the night". No more surprises after that. There are millions of written opinions on all that happens from then on. The only surprises will be on those, whose opinions, were wrong.

Im sorry, not exactly sure of your point here. To clarify, I know what a Saint is...it's clearly defined in scripture as someone who follows Christ and belongs to God, who perseveres even to the point of death. My conversation with Taken, he was asking to prove that there were Christians in Revelation...basically he was asking me to prove if there were people coming to faith on the earth after the Rapture, during the Tribulation. My point was that the term "Saint" in Revelation appears again and again, and there cannot be any doubt that that term refers to people who belong to Christ.

 

[Naomi25]

You can say that.
And I can say: I decide what Scriptures APPLY to me.

Of course ALL Scripture IS profitable. I never said otherwise.

I speak for myself.
All Scripture does not Apply to me.
Scripture itself Determines WHAT Applies to a Person.
A person Freely chooses what he believes and DOES.
It is BY the Individual's Choices, BY Which The Individual determines WHAT Applies TO Him.

And the basic notion that humans are faulty and are notoriously BAD at picking and choosing things they do or don't like or do or don't suit them has no never mind in any of that. You remember 'sin', right? You remember this verse, right: Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Or is this one of the things that doesn't apply to you?

I'm sorry. This is where I get off the wagon. I just don't have time to get into deep discussions with people who feel they have the authority to decide how much of scripture applies to their lives.

 

[Joseph77]

Im sorry, not exactly sure of your point here. To clarify, I know what a Saint is...it's clearly defined in scripture as someone who follows Christ and belongs to God, who perseveres even to the point of death. My conversation with Taken, he was asking to prove that there were Christians in Revelation...basically he was asking me to prove if there were people coming to faith on the earth after the Rapture, during the Tribulation. My point was that the term "Saint" in Revelation appears again and again, and there cannot be any doubt that that term refers to people who belong to Christ.

THere are a couple or more points changed within this post that while not urgent now, could be helpful later...
One is , for instance, that there is a difference between "there were Christians in Revelation" vs "refers to people who belong to Christ" (in the Book of Revelation).

Others familiar completely with the languages and customs in the first century have shown that in the books of Hebrews and the Apocalypse (Revelation), there is no mention of the church. (Ekklesia in the first chapters is not at all the same as "church" as often used in English versions of Scripture) ....

To follow up on this is not possible nor probably on topic in this thread, and maybe not even on this forum, I don't know.

Another footnote of sorts - after one third of the people are killed in the book of Revelation,
the remaining two thirds of people on earth REFUSE to repent of worshiping demons. (i.e. they are wholly lost).

Perhaps there is a remnant saved, yes.... but it is clearly few.

 

[Taken]

And back in the day there were Jews walking around calling themselves Jews, safe in their circumcision, when Paul up and tells them that there circumcision meant nothing unless their hearts were also circumcised. So Jews weren't Jews and non-Jews WERE Jews.

My point being...PAUL'S point being: it doesn't really matter what WE call ourselves or others, it only matters what the state of our hearts are, and that we cannot hide from God. He knows what we are, and that's all that matters.

Circumcision was an OT Covenant with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, forward To their "Faithful" Hebrews/Tribes.
Gods portion of the Covenant;
WAS circumcision of the Heart.
A man's portion of the Covenant;
WAS foreskin circumcision.
A Covenant is a Promise.
And a promise is sealed with an "oath" between two parties...in this case:
God and A man who Agrees.

Paul is explaining:
The TRIBES, have made "the foreskin circumcision" more of a "Tradition" rather than "an Agreement", of the Covenant.

Paul's Teaching is based on Jesus' Teaching And Historical Knowledge;

The Historical Knowledge IS;
The Tribes Lost their "WAY" following God.
They began "following" Gentile's "WAYS".
The were IN bondage 400 yrs. (in a foreign lands, sub-servantant to foreign Gentile kings.) And Called "Lost".

They had Kept the Tradition and Custom of "foreskin circumcision", But: were NOT impressing "it was a Covenant Promise Agreement With God of Agreement To Be "Faithful To God."

We can find the Historical Accounts in Scripture, After release from 400 years of bondage...all happy, when God intervened on their Behalf...and all doubting, when facing another trial...and murmuring and complaining God was not acting quick enough.

(The Red Sea, Needing water, Needing food, Making themselves a god golden calf.)

We can find Jesus saying:
John 8:
[37] I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
[39] They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Almost sounds contradictory, eh?
But it's Not.
It is revealing: the knowledge of "the SEED".
For ANY man to Become an occupant of Gods Kingdom IN Heaven (soul & spirit) after bodily death...that man MUST be out of Abraham's (stock/ direct line sperm seed).
(well, not ALL Are out of Abraham's direct stock seed.)
However: God established, a WAY, and ORDER, for (Gods Own Word...and Humans To: take upon themselves, The STOCK seed of Abraham.)
Jesus (our Example) did that: He was the FIRST.
Phil: 2:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant...
Gal 3:
[6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
[7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.[9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then [/B] are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Jesus: who is the Word of God, in the Flesh, was THE FIRST...NOT of the STOCK SEED Descendant of Abraham, To take upon Himself the Stock SEED of Abraham, thus making Himself, A Lawful Descendant of Abraham's FAITHFUL descendants...and Lawful Heir...
To Abraham's Promised Land...AND King David's (Everlasting) Throne, WHICH ...
The Land and Throne...are the Precise Location of Christ Jesus' KINGDOM ON Earth, during the 1,000 yr Reign.

Heb 2:
[16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Rom 4:
[13] For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

That ^ was Jesus' comment...to the Jews:
They were Stock SEED of Abraham...but they DID NOT Have The "Faithfulness" of Abraham.
The Faithfulness of Abraham, EFFECTS Gods Promise: to Circumcise THEIR Heart.

Men who Are Not of Abraham's Stock seed...but yet Become "VOWED Faithful" To God...
Become the Stock seed of Abraham: Children/son's of Abraham and
Thus heirs To Abraham's Promised Land, (Christ Jesus' Earthly Kingdom) AND
Become Circumcised IN THEIR Heart, BY the Power of God (which IS Christ), Receive the SEED of God, (Which IS Christ), WHICH IS:
A man receiving:
A NEW Heart:
A NEW Seed (Gods Seed), In their New Heart.
A Birth of "their" NEW spirit.
And "the Spirit of God" in their New Heart.
And HOW a man's Natural "spirit" becomes "Born Again", to a "spiritual spirit", that can Never Die...thus the Promise of Eternal Life IS Effected...

Point:
Jesus our Example was First.
Any man thereafter, taking upon himself the Seed of Faithful Abraham AND the SEED God...is Promised Forever Life With the Lord God.

Point:
This is an Offering OF God.
A man MUST Accept and Agree To the Offer, BY an Oath/Vow.
^ That is an Individual, "by his own word" making A Heartfelt Confession.
^ That receives the Response From God To:

Ezek: 18
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezek: 36:
[26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

^ That IS Receiving A "CONVERSION".

Point: a man MUST HAVE Both: The Seed of Abraham AND the SEED God...

^ That IS a "CONVERTED" man.

Many Of the Tribes of ISRAEL ARE of the Stock seed of Abraham: But Not of the SEED of God.

Many Calling themselves Christians Are Neither of the seed of Abraham, or of the SEED of God. (Not having made "a heartfelt" confession/VOW of belief, thus have Not been "Converted".

A Day will Come: unexpectedly TO unaware men of the World...(The End of Days Tribulation)...
The "Wrath of the Lamb" having been Rejected.
SEALS...(first to those Stock seeds of Abraham, who are NOT SEEDS of God. "They" come into belief...Become Converted (Bodily killed, yet Justified to Be Bodily Raised IN Glory)
During the TRUMPS...
More Stock seeds of Abraham Become "Converted", believing, and receiving Gods SEED...
(Also Gentile's, coming into Belief, Bodily Killed, FOR (Converting) and (Tribesmen and Gentiles) having Become ... Converted...
"Their" (soul Saved, spirit Quickened), and come out of the Tribulation and Raised Up to Heaven...while their Dead Bodies "remain ON Earth", Waiting for the End of 1,000 year Reign, for their Bodies to Be Raised in Glory...
Once ALL Converted During the Tribulation of SEALS and TRUMPS are finished...
The Door for a man to Receive a Conversion IS Closed.
Then comes The portion of Tribulation of BOWLS/VIALS ...of "Gods Wrath And Vengeance" (God having been Rejected) upon The Corrupt Earth and Corrupt men and Corrupt angelic spirits.

The "Already Converted:"
BE THEY of Abraham's Day...
BE THEY of the 12 Disciples Day...
BE THEY After the Apostles Day...
ARE NOT Subject TO:
The Lambs Wrath/ "SEALS"
Are NOT in the (SEALS/TRUMPS Tribulation COMING INTO Faith)
Are NOT Converting During the Tribulation, and Coming Out of the Tribulation.
Are NOT becoming MARKED with the Anti-Christ and Subject TO Gods Wrath (BOWLS).
Are NOT lying Bodily Dead for 1,000 years while Christ Jesus' Kingdom Reigns on Earth, waiting For the "Son of man" TO Return.

THE Converted ARE:
For 7 years with Christ Jesus (body, soul, & spirit in the Clouds) and Then For 1,000 years
(body, soul & spirit) with Christ IN His Earthly Kingdom).
Invited to sit with Him in His Throne, and Minister TO the Remnant of Mortals populating the Earth For 1,000 years.

And Thereafter, Satan is Loosed. Again he seeks mortals, (some mortals make Vows to the Lord God, Some make Allegience To Satan)...

THEN is the Cycle Thrust...The "Divided" Wheat and Shaft "Separated"...Saved unto God with the Lord God...the Unsaved to hell, Divided away from God.
THEN are all bodies Raised, Judged according to Gods Books of Evidence.
THEN the Final SEPARATION:
Bodies in Glory ON Earth (with Saved soul, Quickened spirit).
Bodies of Damnation, Void of Life, Void of God, no quickened spirit, no Saved soul, Body and Soul cast into the Fire pit burned to ash of utter darkness along with Corrupt angelic spirits, who burn eternally but can not die.

THEN is what JESUS "OVERCAME" (Death), THEN is completely "OVERCOME" by the Entire Population; (called Death swallowed up IN Victory) of the Renewed Earth...and Renewed Heavens...with "no longer a Barrier" Between:
A Man and His Lord God Almighty.
Or Between:
The Habitat (Heaven) of God and the Habitat of "Faithful" Mankind.

(men Will See God and as He IS ... and the Same as in Heaven so also it will be On Earth)

Glory To God,
Taken

 

[Joseph77]

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (MEV)

"Do not let anyone deceive you in any way.

This could be a banner over internet pages, eh ? A good warning today ?

 

[Naomi25]

THere are a couple or more points changed within this post that while not urgent now, could be helpful later...
One is , for instance, that there is a difference between "there were Christians in Revelation" vs "refers to people who belong to Christ" (in the Book of Revelation).

Others familiar completely with the languages and customs in the first century have shown that in the books of Hebrews and the Apocalypse (Revelation), there is no mention of the church. (Ekklesia in the first chapters is not at all the same as "church" as often used in English versions of Scripture) ....

To follow up on this is not possible nor probably on topic in this thread, and maybe not even on this forum, I don't know.

With respect, I don't think this is as valid a point of separation as people attempt to make it. If 'Church' and 'Saint' were as different in Revelation as they are portrayed to be, then it stands to reason, logically, that we could apply these differences elsewhere in the NT.
For example: to say the 'absence of the word Church' from Revelation is meant to mean the Church is no longer on the earth, then we have a big problem in not only Hebrews, but also in 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 and 2 Peter, 1 and 2 John and Jude, where the word 'church' does not appear.
And if we also say that the word 'Saint in Revelation' means 'Christian after the Church has departed the earth', then it becomes a problem when that very term is used to refer to Christians in Matthew, Acts, Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, Philemon, Hebrews and Jude.

To arrive at Revelation and suddenly decide these terms and the appearance or absence of them mean things that they have not before, and are not specifically stated in the text, is problematic, don't you think?

Another footnote of sorts - after one third of the people are killed in the book of Revelation,
the remaining two thirds of people on earth REFUSE to repent of worshiping demons. (i.e. they are wholly lost).

Perhaps there is a remnant saved, yes.... but it is clearly few.

1/3 is still a large amount of people. And as Christians, we don't want to dismiss any soul God would call. Remember, Christ is the good shepherd that would leave his gathered flock to search out and save that single lost one. Our attitude should be the same, I think, even to those we consider 'beyond saving'. It's not for us to know.

 

[Keraz]

Okay, what we are seeing in this passage is obvious.

What we are told in your 1 Cor 15 passages, is what will happen at the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
You just assume it refers to the Return of Jesus, but it isn't and cannot be, as only when the Book of Life is opened, is immortality given and only then is Death no more. Revelation 21:4

1 Thess 4 shows us that the believing dead are raised at the SAME time as those alive in Christ.

Wrong again. Revelation 20:4 is very specific: Only those martyred by the Anti-Christ, will be raised to life again by Jesus.
ALL the rest of the dead must await the GWT Judgment at the end of the Millennium.

 

[Taken]

And the basic notion that humans are faulty and are notoriously BAD at picking and choosing things they do or don't like or do or don't suit them has no never mind in any of that. You remember 'sin', right? You remember this verse, right: Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

You remember "state of being verbs", Right?
* is, was, were, am, had, are...

You remember "pronouns", Right?
* he, she, they, them...

You remember interrogative words, Right?
* who, what, when, why, where...

You remember "conditional statements", Right?
* "IF"..."THEN".

Scripture is Full of such words; ****

You know the meaning of the word Applicability, Right?

Applicability-
the quality of being relevant or appropriate.

Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

Whose heart "IS" deceitful above all things?
Answer: The Heart, therefore that "Applie(S)" to Any man that HAS a Heart.

That ^ "Appli(ED)" to me, at my "natural birth from a natural man's "seed", I (pronoun), "HAD" a deceitful Heart.

You remember "state of being" words, Right?
Present tense: IS
Past tense: HAD

If you can not Determine the difference between WHAT IS and WHAT WAS for yourself, that would be your problem to resolve.

I don't speak FOR You.
I speak FOR myself.

I already KNOW, what Appli-ED to me at my Natural Birth...
And
I already KNOW, what Applie(S) to me NOW.
And
I already KNOW; who, what, when, why, where.

The Lord Jesus gave Every man an OFFERING.

I chose to ACCEPT the Lord Jesus' OFFERING.

BECAUSE, "I" accepted the Lord Jesus' OFFERING,
"AND"
BECAUSE, I TRUST the Lord Jesus IS Faithful,
"THAT.... "IF" I accept His OFFERING-
"THEN"...He "would" CHANGE my Heart.

Or is this one of the things that doesn't apply to you?

No-
I boldly say THAT Does NOT Apply to me.

I am Not ashamed to Profess, I Believe the Lord IS Faithful AND Trust, IF, I do what He says, THEN He WILL DO what He Said.

Matt 9:
[12] But when Jesus heard that, he [/B] said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

I'm sorry. This is where I get off the wagon. I just don't have time to get into deep discussions with people who feel they have the authority to decide how much of scripture applies to their lives.

I'm sorry for you as well.
Jesus Has OFFERED and IS the WAY for Every man TO BECOME:
"Made WHOLE"...body, soul & spirit.

BEFORE the End of Days Tribulation:
(The Anti-Christ, World Wide- Destruction, Disease, Famines, Fear, Wrath, Death...)

The Lord Shall Descend FROM "Heaven" TO the "Clouds". And those "IN Christ", Already MADE "WHOLE"...shall Rise Up to Meet "The Lord".

1 Thes 4:
[16] For "the Lord himself" shall "descend from heaven" with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead "in Christ" shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are "alive" and remain shall be "caught up" together with them in the clouds, to "meet the Lord" in the air: and "so shall we ever be with the Lord."

"IF" you Still have a Deceitful Heart
(Jer 17:9)

"IF" you Still have NOT been made WHOLE
(Matt 9:22)

"IF" you are Still IN need of a Physician
(Mark 2:17)

"IF" you Still have not accepted Jesus' Offering
(Heb 10:10)

"IF" you are Still NOT "IN Christ",
(1Thes 4:16)
"AND"
Can Not Hear "His" Voice
(John 10:27)

"THEN"...you CAN remain ON Earth During the End of Days Tribulation...
"Suffer"...With the Diseased WHO NEED a Physician, TO Save Them.

And You Can be Subject TO: "the Lambs Wrath" (Rev 6:16)
Until ..."you decide" to ACCEPT the Lords Offering...and Make Becoming "WHOLE", Apply To You.
And "Then".... "IF" you Accept the Lords Offering, You can "THEN" wash your garment,
And Come Out of The Tribulation.
(Rev 7:14).

Me?
I have Already Accepted The Lords Offering.
No need for me to be IN The Tribulation "deciding THEN" to Become MADE WHOLE, TO come OUT of the Tribulation.

You DO know, Noah was Saved, Lifted UP above the Face of the Earth? Right?

You Do know, WHY? Because THOSE ON Earth, Subject TO that Tribulation...were ungodly, Right?

Well another Tribulation is Coming, Greater than the Flood Days Tribulation...
And the ungodly AND unChrist like...WILL be on Earth...suffering BECAUSE of THEIR Rejection of God and Christ.

2 Pet 2:
[5] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

If you choose to BE ON Earth With the ungodly, and those NOT IN Christ...During the great Tribulation...that IS your Choice to Make that Apply TO you.

I have chosen differently. I have Chosen TO BE with My Lord God, (IN Christ, IN the Clouds) During The Great Tribulation, UP Above the Face of the Earth...and THAT was my choice to have That Apply to me.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

What we are told in your 1 Cor 15 passages, is what will happen at the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.
You just assume it refers to the Return of Jesus, but it isn't and cannot be, as only when the Book of Life is opened, is immortality given and only then is Death no more. Revelation 21:4

Yes, I agree it happens 'after' the Millennium. The problem comes when people start reading their preconceived notions about what the Millennium IS into these passages.

And it isn't 'assumption' when the passage outright tells it occurs 'when Jesus comes':

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. -1 Corinthians 15:23

And considering the passage also tells us that AT this event; his coming, we receive our new immortal bodies and THEN we are able to say that death is defeated....I'd say the 'assuming' lies with you...sorry.

Wrong again. Revelation 20:4 is very specific: Only those martyred by the Anti-Christ, will be raised to life again by Jesus.
ALL the rest of the dead must await the GWT Judgment at the end of the Millennium.

Again, bringing preconceived notions to a text will usually land you in the sort of waters where other verses will then be contrary to the one you are attempting to argue for.
Consider: IF Rev 20:4 is telling us that a resurrection of ONLY believing, martyred dead will happen before the events of 1 Cor 15; what most people recognize as describing 'the Rapture'...or the time when Christian people both alive and dead are giving their resurrection bodies AND before the GWT judgement of Rev 20:11, then what do we make of these other passages:

The Time of the End
“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Daniel 12:1–2

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. -John 5:28–29

The Final Judgment
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats...
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:31–32, 46

The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.” -Revelation 11:18


Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. -Revelation 20:11–12

The picture that emerges is, if not clear, then certainly persuasive enough that a person should consider. An 'hour', or 'time' is set, when the one who 'sits on the judgement throne' will judge both living and dead. Both just and unjust. Nowhere in any of these verses do we find suggestions of different times or seasons for different resurrections.
But, you say, what about Rev 20:4...doesn't it say exactly that? Not strictly, not if you let scripture interpret scripture. Let me show you.

Revelation 20:4–6
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Ok...so, this verse is describing the "first resurrection", right? Those the second death has no power over.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, -Ephesians 2:4–6

having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, -Colossians 2:12–13

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. -Colossians 3:1

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. -Romans 6:5

Being "In Christ" is strongly portrayed in scripture as Christians having already passed through spiritual death and come to life with him, in him. It is clearly arguable that the "first resurrection" spoken about in Rev 20 is the moment a Christian is born again. Because, without a doubt, once this happens, we know the second death (spiritual death) has no power over us. We await the 'second resurrection', which is a bodily one...that which is spoken of in 1 Cor 15 or 1 Thess 4. Some people will pass through the 'first death'...bodily death, but again, the second death has no hold on someone who has already experienced the 'first resurrection'.

Now, I expect you might point out that Rev 20:4 mentions specifically those who have been martyred for standing up against the 'mark of the beast', and not worshiping him. This is probably a greater, in depth conversation. I don't see this as a huge problem to my understanding of the text, because of how I see 'the mark' or even the AC. It would take, however, some time to plot out that understanding. Very briefly, as I see Revelation as a highly symbolic book (but still dealing with very real, very true and essential realities via symbols), I don't view 'the mark' as a literal hand or forehead tattoo, but rather the actions of people; deed and thought, as they give themselves over to the culture and 'rulers' of this wicked world. There may indeed be a final man of sin, but as John said, the Church has been living with many antichrists...that spirit is well and truly in the world. Every time a Christian stands firm in their faith; through hardship, persecution or even martyrdom, refusing to compromise, they are refusing to take that mark, to worship the way Satan has set up his system here on earth.

That's how I see it all, anyway, and feel there are enough biblical verses to support the view.

 

[Keraz]

That's how I see it all, anyway, and feel there are enough biblical verses to support the view.

Thanks Naomi, a good reply.
However, I maintain my stance; No one will receive immortality until the Book of Life is opened - After the Millennium.
Will there be mortals and immortals together at any time? I don't see it as possible, or logical.

Therefore, all the rebuttals you made are simply prophesies for what will happen at the GWT Judgment.

Jesus said: The men and women of this world marry, but those who have been judged worthy of a place in the spiritual world do not marry, for they are no longer subject to death. They are like angels, they will be the children of God, because they partake in the Resurrection. Luke 20:34-36
It is the lot of mankind to die once, then comes the Judgment. Hebrews 9:27

ONLY at the Great White Throne Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15, after the Millennium: does Judgement of every individual take place. There is no 'changed bodies', 'glorified humans, or immortality for anyone before then.
But; during the Millennium, we are told that life will be generally much longer. Isaiah 65:20

 

[Naomi25]

Thanks Naomi, a good reply.
However, I maintain my stance; No one will receive immortality until the Book of Life is opened - After the Millennium.
Will there be mortals and immortals together at any time? I don't see it as possible, or logical.

Therefore, all the rebuttals you made are simply prophesies for what will happen at the GWT Judgment.

I don't disagree that immortality will come at the opening of the book of life...or that it occurs after the Millennium. I also agree that it is completely illogical for mortals and immortals to be living side by side; there is no biblical basis for it. And I also agree that the prophecies given point that that GWT moment, when all, live or dead, just or unjust, will be judged. I just contend that when taken together, the verses point to that time as being AT Christ's return....meaning the millennium is now. I suggest we let the bible form our idea of what the "millennium" means, and I don't see a future, literal 1000 year reign on earth being found in scripture.
Thus, when Christ returns, the '1000 yr' Kingdom is wrapped up and 'given' to the Father (1 Cor 15), this is the moment death is defeated, people are judged and receive their immortal bodies; be it for everlasting righteousness or wrath.

Jesus said: The men and women of this world marry, but those who have been judged worthy of a place in the spiritual world do not marry, for they are no longer subject to death. They are like angels, they will be the children of God, because they partake in the Resurrection. Luke 20:34-36
It is the lot of mankind to die once, then comes the Judgment. Hebrews 9:27

ONLY at the Great White Throne Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15, after the Millennium: does Judgement of every individual take place. There is no 'changed bodies', 'glorified humans, or immortality for anyone before then.
But; during the Millennium, we are told that life will be generally much longer. Isaiah 65:20

See my reply above. In regards to Isaiah 65:20, a verse used as a foundational text in building a future, literal, earth-bound millennium, people seem, intent on missing the very clear context given about the passage:

New Heavens and a New Earth
“For behold, I create new heavens
and a new earth,
and the former things shall not be remembered
or come into mind. -Isaiah 65:17

We are quite clearly told the passage is about 'the new heavens and new earth'. People come to the verses underneath and declare it 'must be literal' and therefore be describing an 'age' where it's not as bad as it is now, but not the eternal state. But in doing so they completely violate verse 17.
Instead, should we not look at the rest of the passage, like v20, as metaphorical descriptions of how blessed this new heavens and earth will be? Like other bible passages (Is 55:12) that tell us that the mountains break forth into singing and the trees clap their hands, we do not expect these things to literally occur, but read them as poetic prose about something so wonderful it almost defies logical thinking.

 

[Keraz]

See my reply above. In regards to Isaiah 65:20, a verse used as a foundational text in building a future, literal, earth-bound millennium, people seem, intent on missing the very clear context given about the passage:

I am glad you agree that immortality is only given when the Book of Life is opened. As described in Revelation 29:11-15

Regarding Isaiah 65:17-25.
My first point is that all the prophesies, [excepting for the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation] are mixed up, as Isaiah 28:10 tells us.
Isaiah 65:17 is plainly a prophecy for Eternity, after the new heavens and earth are made.
But Isaiah 65:18-25, is about the Millennium period, when My chosen ones will enjoy the fruit of their labors. Verse 22b

Your disbelief in the Millennium reign of Jesus, is a hard one. Probably nothing that I can show you will change your mind.
The most obvious proof of a final 1000 years, with Jesus as King over the world, is the Biblically provable fact of there having been 5990 +/- 1 or 2 years from Adam, until now. This is paralleled by Genesis; work for 6 'days', then rest for the final 'day'.

If the Prophetic Word is the truth of what will happen, then we can expect dramatic things over the next few years. Culminating in the glorious Return of Jesus.
To do what? Judge everyone and then wipe out everything excepting those found worthy? This is quite contrary to what Revelation 20-22 describe.

 

[Naomi25]

I am glad you agree that immortality is only given when the Book of Life is opened. As described in Revelation 29:11-15

Regarding Isaiah 65:17-25.
My first point is that all the prophesies, [excepting for the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation] are mixed up, as Isaiah 28:10 tells us.

Forgive me, but I don't see Isa 28:10 telling us anything even remotely connected to Revelation or the order of prophecies that occur within. Is 28 seems to be about the wastage of the people and their inability to receive instruction from God.
If you have some startling evidence that can connect this passage with Revelation in any way, I invite you to share it.

Isaiah 65:17 is plainly a prophecy for Eternity, after the new heavens and earth are made.
But Isaiah 65:18-25, is about the Millennium period, when My chosen ones will enjoy the fruit of their labors. Verse 22b

Again, you seem to presume the passage switches focus...backwards in time...with no discernible proof. If the passage begins by talking of the new heavens and new earth, what then gives you the right or reasonable expectation...except a preconceived notion about when and what the millennium must be...to make a jump from one line to the next, at nothing more than....what? A "this doesn't fit my notion"?
Again, if you have startling evidence that the author is deliberately switching topics, by all means provide it. But without it, it seems the most rational and faithful reading of the text is to assume the language the author goes on to use is poetic musings about the wonders to come....something we see time and again in scripture, so it's not without precedent.

Your disbelief in the Millennium reign of Jesus, is a hard one. Probably nothing that I can show you will change your mind.

I don't disbelieve in the millennial reign of Christ...I just think people have been painting it into a time and place-setting that scripture doesn't.
Consider: does the bible tell us that Christ is reigning now? Yes, Eph 1:20-22; Mark 16:19; Acts 2:33; 1 Peter 3:22
Does the bible tell us anything about 'Christ's Kingdom? Yes; it's not of THIS world; John 18:36. It is 'among us' Matt 12:28. Matt 13:41 tells us that at the END of the age, the angels will gather the weeds (sinners) OUT OF the Kingdom, leaving the 'sons of the Kingdom to shine like the sun'. We are told it is "not coming in ways that can be observed"...for it "is in the midst of you" Luke 17:20-21. Luke 19:12 tells us that Christ "goes into a far land to receive a Kingdom for himself". And we are told that AT Christ's return, he will deliver the Kingdom over to God 1 Cor 15:2

What can we conclude about this "kingdom" then? It is both a present reality among Christians, and also a spiritual reality as Christ rules from his throne above, over all authorities and powers. We know Christ's Kingdom will be "established forever", and as Christians we have the promises of eternal life now....but to be fulfilled when he returns and remakes the cosmos. The Kingdom, therefore, is both now...and not yet. It is both here, and where Christ is.
But the one thing we cannot conclude from any of those verses, is that the Kingdom only sets up shop on the earth in a physical, literal monarchy at some distant point in the future.
When we add this to a bible study of "this age" and "the age to come" ,where we can clearly see that 'this age' represents all things temporal...death, sickness, sin....and the "age to come" represents things eternal....no sin, no death, no tears, then where, oh where, do we fit an "extra age" that has attributes of both?
All that to say...no...you probably cannot sway me. But only because I've spent a considerable amount of time arriving where I am and compiling the verses that speak on it. You are most welcome to try and show otherwise, but I have my doubts that you will be successful!

The most obvious proof of a final 1000 years, with Jesus as King over the world, is the Biblically provable fact of there having been 5990 +/- 1 or 2 years from Adam, until now. This is paralleled by Genesis; work for 6 'days', then rest for the final 'day'.

Well, I must beg to differ on the '1000' years being tangible proof; especially considering everything I listed above...our previous conversation about Isa 65, AND the fact that Revelation uses numbers in a symbolic manner.

Also...many scholars would argue against your 'biblically provable' years between Adam and today...although I confess I'm keen to understand how you arrived there....?

If the Prophetic Word is the truth of what will happen, then we can expect dramatic things over the next few years. Culminating in the glorious Return of Jesus.

Well...considering the vastly different understandings on interpreting the Prophetic word, I'm unsure if we can expect things to come to a head shortly or not. However...while I'm fairly convinced of my eschatological view (you may have noticed!), I do like to keep my eye, ear and heart cocked should I be wrong. I have zero problem being proven wrong. By some teacher or by Christ arriving himself to set up an earthly kingdom! I just need solid biblical proof, corroborated by more solid biblical truth. And I think we're all called to be 'ready'...whenever he may return.

To do what? Judge everyone and then wipe out everything excepting those found worthy? This is quite contrary to what Revelation 20-22 describe.

Revelation 22 maybe, but Revelation 20? That Chapter shows Satan being trounced after his 'little release', his armies along with him and the nations being judged...
Combine that with many other texts in the NT about what happens AT his return, and I'm not sure how you escape the fact that no one can escape his return. When it happens, people will either go into eternal righteousness or eternal damnation. The cosmos is renewed. Rev 21-22 is about what happens AFTER that time. It speaks of the eternal...and it sounds good!

 

[Keraz]

Also...many scholars would argue against your 'biblically provable' years between Adam and today...although I confess I'm keen to understand how you arrived there....?

Here is the timeline, made up from 47 Bible verses and the known date of the Babylonian conquest in 586 BC:
7000 years from the Creation to the Completion of Mankind:

Genesis 1:27 Adam was created in 3970.5 BC subtracted back from 586 BCE, from:

Gen 5:3 Seth +130, Gen 5:6 Enoch +105, Gen 5:9 Kenan +90, Gen 5:12 Mahalalel +70, Gen 5:15 Jared +65, Gen 5:18 Enoch +162, Gen 5:21 Methuselah +65, Gen 5:25 Lamech +187, Gen 5:28 Noah+182, Gen 7:6 The Flood came when Noah was +600, Gen 11:10 Our year 2314.5 BC

Arpachshad +2 - born to Shem after the flood. Gen 11:12 Selah +35, Gen 11:14 Heber +30, Gen 11:16 Peleg +34, Gen 11:18 Reu +30, Gen 11:20 Serug +32, Gen 11:22 Nahor +30 , Gen 11:24 Terah +29, Gen 11:26 Abram +70, Abram was +52 when God called him and they left Ur. Our year 1970.5 BCE He lived in Haran for 23 years, then went to Canaan at age 75. Genesis 12:4 Total years so far = 2000


Gen 17:1, Abraham was 99 when the Covenant was made with God. +47 Genesis 17:1-8

Galatians 3:17 Paul states that the Law was given +430 after the Covenant. Total years elapsed until the Exodus – 2477, in our year 1493.5 BC.

[Many ancient records say Comet Typhon passed close the earth at that time. It was the cause of many of the disasters in Egypt.]

1 Kings 6:1 The Temple construction starts, in the 4th year of King Solomon +480 since the Torah was given at the Exodus.. 1 Kings 11:42 Solomon 40 minus 4 = +36, 1 Kings 14:21 Rehoboam +17, 1 Kings 15:2 Abijah +3, 2 Chron 16:13 Asa +41, 1 Kings 22:42 Jehoshaphat +25, 2 Kings 8:17 Jehoram +8, 2 Kings 8:26 Ahaziah +1, 2 Kings 11:1-3 Athaliah +6, 2 Kings 12:1 Joash +40, 2 Kings 14:2 Amaziah +29, 2 Kings 15:1-2 Azariah +52, 2 Kings 15:33 Jotham +16, 2 Kings 16:2 Ahaz +16, 2 Kings 18:1-2 Hezekiah +29, 2 Kings 21:1 Manasseh +55, 2 Kings 21:19 Amon +2, 2 Kings 22:1 Josiah +31, 2 Kings 23:31 Jehoahaz +3mths, 2 Kings 23:36 Jehoiakim +11, 2 Kings 24:8 Jehoichin +3mths, 2 Kings 24:18-20 Zedekiah +11, who ruled until the Babylonian captivity in our year of 586 BC.

Total elapsed years to the first exile of Judah = 3386.5

586 BC + 613.5 years + 2 comes to 29.5 AD, the date of Jesus’ baptism. Luke 3:1 Plus 2 to include the total number of elapsed years, as our calendar system counts years from their commencement.

3386.5 + 613.5 = 4000 years from Adam to Jesus.

January 2020 AD - 29.5 AD = 1990.5 years since the commencement of Jesus’ Ministry.

1990.5 + 4000 = 5990.5 years, is where we are now. 5990.5 + 9.5 = 6000 years

2020 AD + 9.5 = 2029.5 AD

Exactly 2000 years for the present Church age, until Jesus Returns.
4000 since Abraham, 6000 since Adam. Next comes the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

7000 years is God’s decreed time for mankind.

Those who have been found worthy will go into Eternity with God. Revelation 22:1-5

 

[Bobby Jo]

Here is the timeline, made up from 47 Bible verses and the known date of the Babylonian conquest in 586 BC ...

OR something with accuracy: One could read the Prophetic Psalms and have the answer DIRECTLY.

Mathematical gymnastics aren't anywhere close to being correct, but they are entertaining.
Bobby Jo

 

[Naomi25]

Here is the timeline, made up from 47 Bible verses and the known date of the Babylonian conquest in 586 BC:
7000 years from the Creation to the Completion of Mankind:

Genesis 1:27 Adam was created in 3970.5 BC subtracted back from 586 BCE, from:

Gen 5:3 Seth +130, Gen 5:6 Enoch +105, Gen 5:9 Kenan +90, Gen 5:12 Mahalalel +70, Gen 5:15 Jared +65, Gen 5:18 Enoch +162, Gen 5:21 Methuselah +65, Gen 5:25 Lamech +187, Gen 5:28 Noah+182, Gen 7:6 The Flood came when Noah was +600, Gen 11:10 Our year 2314.5 BC

Arpachshad +2 - born to Shem after the flood. Gen 11:12 Selah +35, Gen 11:14 Heber +30, Gen 11:16 Peleg +34, Gen 11:18 Reu +30, Gen 11:20 Serug +32, Gen 11:22 Nahor +30 , Gen 11:24 Terah +29, Gen 11:26 Abram +70, Abram was +52 when God called him and they left Ur. Our year 1970.5 BCE He lived in Haran for 23 years, then went to Canaan at age 75. Genesis 12:4 Total years so far = 2000


Gen 17:1, Abraham was 99 when the Covenant was made with God. +47 Genesis 17:1-8

Galatians 3:17 Paul states that the Law was given +430 after the Covenant. Total years elapsed until the Exodus – 2477, in our year 1493.5 BC.

[Many ancient records say Comet Typhon passed close the earth at that time. It was the cause of many of the disasters in Egypt.]

1 Kings 6:1 The Temple construction starts, in the 4th year of King Solomon +480 since the Torah was given at the Exodus.. 1 Kings 11:42 Solomon 40 minus 4 = +36, 1 Kings 14:21 Rehoboam +17, 1 Kings 15:2 Abijah +3, 2 Chron 16:13 Asa +41, 1 Kings 22:42 Jehoshaphat +25, 2 Kings 8:17 Jehoram +8, 2 Kings 8:26 Ahaziah +1, 2 Kings 11:1-3 Athaliah +6, 2 Kings 12:1 Joash +40, 2 Kings 14:2 Amaziah +29, 2 Kings 15:1-2 Azariah +52, 2 Kings 15:33 Jotham +16, 2 Kings 16:2 Ahaz +16, 2 Kings 18:1-2 Hezekiah +29, 2 Kings 21:1 Manasseh +55, 2 Kings 21:19 Amon +2, 2 Kings 22:1 Josiah +31, 2 Kings 23:31 Jehoahaz +3mths, 2 Kings 23:36 Jehoiakim +11, 2 Kings 24:8 Jehoichin +3mths, 2 Kings 24:18-20 Zedekiah +11, who ruled until the Babylonian captivity in our year of 586 BC.

Total elapsed years to the first exile of Judah = 3386.5

586 BC + 613.5 years + 2 comes to 29.5 AD, the date of Jesus’ baptism. Luke 3:1 Plus 2 to include the total number of elapsed years, as our calendar system counts years from their commencement.

3386.5 + 613.5 = 4000 years from Adam to Jesus.

January 2020 AD - 29.5 AD = 1990.5 years since the commencement of Jesus’ Ministry.

1990.5 + 4000 = 5990.5 years, is where we are now. 5990.5 + 9.5 = 6000 years

2020 AD + 9.5 = 2029.5 AD

Exactly 2000 years for the present Church age, until Jesus Returns.
4000 since Abraham, 6000 since Adam. Next comes the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

7000 years is God’s decreed time for mankind.

Those who have been found worthy will go into Eternity with God. Revelation 22:1-5

I confess, I am challenged when it comes to figures and maths. But, I can track with most of that. It appears...correct me if I'm wrong...that you're basically taking the stance of the Jewish calendar, right? They think that 'creation' was around the late 3-thousands BC. And I think they believe Messiah comes at year 6000. We would say "comes again". Does that make the 7000th year the Millennium?

 

[Keraz]

I confess, I am challenged when it comes to figures and maths. But, I can track with most of that. It appears...correct me if I'm wrong...that you're basically taking the stance of the Jewish calendar, right? They think that 'creation' was around the late 3-thousands BC. And I think they believe Messiah comes at year 6000. We would say "comes again". Does that make the 7000th year the Millennium?

No. The addition and subtraction of the given time periods of the Patriarchs and Kings, has nothing to do with the Jewish calendar.
Yes, the next 1000 years will be the Millennium reign of King Jesus.

Note; the incredible exact timing of the first 2000 years, as Abraham goes to live in the holy Land.
Then the next exact 2000 years sees the commencement of Jesus Ministry.
The next 2000 years will see Jesus Return and then the last 1000 years is His reward. Psalms 110