Headship, Submission and Women in Ministry

[StanJ]

Stan, your opinion means very little here, considering some of what you believe yourself, and your own insistence that you are always right.
Newsflash....Jesus' mother was a woman.

You mean to you, and that has been obvious for some time. Just NOW the issue is what you DON'T believe, not what I do.

So you would have no problem with your children addressing you as woman, and not Mother or Mom?

 

[Barrd]

You mean to you, and that has been obvious for some time. Just NOW the issue is what you DON'T believe, not what I do.

So you would have no problem with your children addressing you as woman, and not Mother or Mom?

They've called me "Woman", they have also called me "Lady" and, of course, Ma'am. And, no, I have no problem with it.

And I honestly do not see how what I believe or don't believe ought to make any difference to you. I don't make a huge deal out of arguing with you about your beliefs, although I do not agree with them. I'd appreciate the same courtesy from you. Thank you.

 

[Barrd]

Okay, this thread has made it very apparent Barrd. You are one very jaded individual. "Schmuck" "Jerk"... I don't know what some guy did to you but this thread shows you have some issue with guys getting away things. Then, you have the nerve to say that what is in the Bible is not from God??? You have taken a serious walk here. This is pushing heresy, you know that, right? Im not going to sit here and have a quote battle and pick apart everything you have posted.

I'm willing to bet, the "God you love" is reading you posts and doing the best face-palm ever. You have deep issues you need to address. Further more, and you have been told this numerous times, you need get your theology straight.

In this thread, if what is in the bible doesn't agree with how you would have handled it you toss it out as coming from Moses instead of God. Here is where you went wrong in you early walk. You guessed this all on your own. So you missed a lot of the basics of bible teaching. But you say you don't need a teacher... Oh yes you do, Barrd. You especially with your whimsical heresy. Beware the false prophets, Thankfully, 99% of the members on here don't believe a word you say.

If anyone or anything ordained you, then they are just as confused as you are. And yes, this is a bit of a personal attack. That is because refuting scripture with you is pointless because you are so bent that you are right. This is the problem with KJV onlyers. Never properly taught.

But to lightly touch on your scripture posts in this thread, most of them don't even address and or apply to what you are trying to say. It seems as if you just toss darts at the bible and say "yep, this one looks good".

To recap, I don't know what some guy did to you, but its apparent you have problems with it.

God Bless

So, wait. Let me get this straight.
A man may falsely accuse his wife of adultery, right? He's "suspicious", so he takes her to the priest, and puts her through this "test".
But, hey...he's her husband (master)...so it's all good.
But then I come along and call him a "shmuck"...and I'm the bad guy?

I'll try to remember that...

Oh, and I'm not a "KJV onlyer". I like the way the aulde Englishe sounds...it just feels more...I dunno...sacred. But that is strictly a personal preference, and has absolutely nothing to do with the accuracy of the text as opposed to the NIV version that lots of folks seem to prefer.
They all say more or less the same thing...I just think the KJV says it prettier...

 

[mjrhealth]

Its no wonder christianity is the mess it is.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

[StanJ]

They've called me "Woman", they have also called me "Lady" and, of course, Ma'am. And, no, I have no problem with it.

And I honestly do not see how what I believe or don't believe ought to make any difference to you. I don't make a huge deal out of arguing with you about your beliefs, although I do not agree with them. I'd appreciate the same courtesy from you. Thank you.

As usual you miss the point.

ANY false assertion makes a difference to me. You seem to really not GET what the purpose of a debate forum is?

 

[Barrd]

As usual you miss the point.

ANY false assertion makes a difference to me. You seem to really not GET what the purpose of a debate forum is?

Ummm....

The purpose of a debate forum is for you to show off how "knowledgeable" you are?
For you to attempt to get anyone who doesn't agree with you booted off the forum completely?

Uh...for you to "properly instruct" people?

Oh, wait....
Maybe it isn't all about you, Stan.

Maybe it is a place where all of us can air our different opinions...and maybe learn a bit from one another.
A place to share not only our differences, but our similarities...to meet each other on neutral ground, with the love that we share in common...

Nah, that can't be it. It's the "Christian" version of The Jerry Springer Show...

 

[OzSpen]

The Barrd is a writer...a teller of tales, a singer of songs, a poet...and yes, she has a creative imagination.
That's what makes a writer...but probably wouldn't be a good thing for a scholar.
The Barrd is not a scholar.
She doesn't do exegesis and exposition of Scripture...she leaves that to the people with the big brains and the letters after their names...

(PHD...Piled Higher and...uh, maybe you've heard that one before... )

The Barrd,

Writers, story tellers and poets who deal with the Scriptures are to be accurate interpreters of God's Word. That involves exegesis (getting the meaning out of a text) and not eisegesis (putting a meaning into a text). An exposition is an explanation of the exegesis.

So, M'am, every Christian is to be an exegete who gets the meaning of Scripture from the Bible and does not impose his or her meaning on the text. I find you do more than your share of imposing your views on the text, so that you arrive at a view of the authority of Scripture that has an air of story-telling and poetry - removed from the text.

Exegesis is not just the work of those with a PhD, ThD, and DD qualifications. You digress in an endeavour to justify what you do.

It's time for The Barrd to take stock of what she does with Scripture and to deal seriously with the biblical text - instead of creatively inventing what she thinks the text means.

Oz

 

[Born_Again]

Thank you, Stan. I do not for one second believe that I have taken a position against God's Word...I think I have been misunderstood in this thread...and not for the first time.

Yes, I realize that my way of thinking about some of these issues is pretty radical...but then, I am not bound by anything at all except my own love for my Lord and my God...and His love for me.

I am, as another friend puts it, "Blissfully Unaffiliated".

I read about Jesus, and I find Him to be the very personification of LOVE. Everything He does, every word He says is motivated by His great love. There is no bigotry in Him, no hint of sexism in Him at all. All I see in Him is that great, irresistible love.
Knowing Him is to know what it means to be truly loved. Knowing Him is to know peace.

All this foolish arguing over whether or not women should teach or lead a service is the epitome of ridiculous...those barriers were torn down long ago.

Yes, I believe that God Personally wrote the Ten Commandments. They are simple, brief, and to the point. They deal with man's relationship, first to the God Who Created them, and then with his fellow-men. These laws are basic, necessary, and immutable.

I believe that Moses, who had been inspired by God, wrote most of the rest of the Law of Moses personally. That he did this under the auspices of God is a given, that he was inspired of God is also a given...however Moses wrote the law, not God.

There is a distinction between the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses. There has to be, because the Ten Commandments are, as I keep saying, the foundation for human civilization. This seems so obvious to me that I am amazed to find so many disagreeing with me. How could you have a human society without "thou shalt not steal" or "thou shalt not kill"? Of course, you can't.

It seems pretty obvious to me as well that when Paul wrote about "all scripture" he could not possibly have been referring to the Bible. How could he have been referring to a Book that did not exist yet? Yet we do know that Peter referred to Paul's letters as scripture, and also mentioned "other scripture". What, then, constituted "scripture"? I have no idea what "all scripture" might have meant to Paul...the Torah, certainly, but what, if anything, else? Most of us never give it a thought...to us "all scripture" is the Bible we hold in our hands...but what was it to Paul?

Oh, and there is nothing at all wrong with searching the scriptures to see whether what you are being told is actually true...

One wonders what books those noble Bereans were searching through for their answers?

Hmmmm.........

2 Peter 2:1-3 (ESV)

False Prophets and Teachers
2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Hmmmmm.......

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

Writers, story tellers and poets who deal with the Scriptures are to be accurate interpreters of God's Word. That involves exegesis (getting the meaning out of a text) and not eisegesis (putting a meaning into a text). An exposition is an explanation of the exegesis.

So, M'am, every Christian is to be an exegete who gets the meaning of Scripture from the Bible and does not impose his or her meaning on the text. I find you do more than your share of imposing your views on the text, so that you arrive at a view of the authority of Scripture that has an air of story-telling and poetry - removed from the text.

Exegesis is not just the work of those with a PhD, ThD, and DD qualifications. You digress in an endeavour to justify what you do.

It's time for The Barrd to take stock of what she does with Scripture and to deal seriously with the biblical text - instead of creatively inventing what she thinks the text means.

Oz

Oz,

You have seen what The Barrd does with scripture...and as I recall, you thought I was quite good at it.

But for those who have not seen, here is a later piece:

​

Teach me Lord, and guide my way
I love you more each passing day.

Guide me lord, you are my heart
To me Your love You do impart

When it is difficult to cope
You are my strength, You are my hope.

You help me up if I should fall
You are my guide, You are my all

Teach me Lord, and guide my way
I love you more each passing day.​

A simple little piece, to be sure, but quite good, I think. It was sort of whipped out in a hurry for a friend's birthday, actually...

Now, let me whisper in your ear, Oz...
In my own "jaded" opinion, I'm not that smart. There is absolutely no way I could write the way that I do, if God was not with me. The way I see it, I must be doing something right.

As far as me being out on a limb all by myself...well, that puts me in pretty good company, doesn't it? Maybe I'm not "always right" like so many on this board. I make mistakes. Sometimes i stumble over my own tongue.

But I'm not always wrong, either, Oz...even if 99% of the folks on this board don't believe a word I say. I do recall having read something somewhere about a narrow road with just a few travelers...as opposed to a broad, well traveled highway.
I think I'll stick to my lonely wilderness road...

Just because my "exegesis" doesn't agree with everyone else's doesn't automatically mean that I'm wrong and everyone else is right...now does it?

 

[mjrhealth]

So, M'am, every Christian is to be an exegete who gets the meaning of Scripture from the Bible

Actually we are supposed to get that from God, oh thats right we have the word of God who need God, lets justs bicker and fight one another and set a bad example for those poor young christans trying to find the truth.

 

[OzSpen]

:) Anything to make you happy, my kuddly koala friend. :wub:

Every writer of every inspired scripture was writing "under the auspices of God." In other words, they were writing under His guidance, at His direction, under His control. But that doesn't mean that God dictated to them what they should write. When you read the four gospels, for instance, each man is telling essentially the same story...but from a different pov.
I don't know any better way to explain it than that.


I think that's what I just said. :unsure:


There are the Ten Commandments, which were written on tablets of stone (to show their permanence), by the finger of God, Himself.

Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Then there is the rest of the Law, written in a scroll by the hand of Moses.

2Ch 35:12 And they removed the burnt offerings, that they might give according to the divisions of the families of the people, to offer unto the LORD, as it is written in the book of Moses. And so did they with the oxen.


The Law of Moses is that which was "done away". The Ten Commandments cannot be "done away".
No Christian would ever say that, since Jesus took our sins to the cross, we may now
have other Gods before God
make or worship idols
use God's name as a curse
disrespect parents
murder
commit adultery
steal
spread vicious lies about anyone
harbor a desire for what belongs to someone else

You may have noticed that I left out the fourth commandment...for some reason, that one seems to be subject to debate. I've never figured out what it is that people have against a day off...
However, it is a commandment...and we should keep God's Sabbath.

At least, that is what The Barrd thinks about it...


I'm simply going by what is written in the Bible.

Exo 24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.


I have been curious for some time as to what the first century Christians were reading, besides the Torah.


Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties? Now, that sounds interesting....

The Barrd,

There is not any such phrase in the Bible that OT or NT writers write 'under the auspices of God'. That prepositional phrase is nowhere to be found in the Bible, in my understanding. This we do know that Scripture uses statements such as 'breathed out by God' (2 Tim 3:16 ESV), 'by inspiration of God' (2 Tim 3:16 KJV), or 'men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit' (2 Peter 1:21 ESV).

So which of these meanings do you indicate when you use 'auspices of God'? The Merriam-Webster Dictionary gives these options:

auspice

noun aus·pice \ˈȯs-pəs\

Definition of auspice

plural aus·pic·es play \-pə-səz, -ˌsēz\

1 : observation by an augur especially of the flight and feeding of birds to discover omens
2 plural : kindly patronage and guidance <doing research under the auspices of the local historical society>
3 : a prophetic sign; especially : a favorable sign

So does the Bible come under the 'kindly patronage and guidance' of God (auspices in plural)? I suggest you use the language of the Bible to describe its own authority, rather than The Barrd's own poetic invention.

You say, 'When you read the four gospels, for instance, each man is telling essentially the same story...but from a different pov'. It doesn't seem as though you have read the Gospel of John lately to make that kind of statement.

Because God wrote the 10 commandments on tablets of stone, does not mean that the rest of the Pentateuch is not theopneustos (breathed out by God, as in 2 Tim 3:16). Since the rest of the law was written by the hand of Moses does not make them any less authoritative than what God wrote on tablets of stone. Why? Because 'all Scripture' is breathed out by God, and in 2 Tim 3:16 this was particularly referring to the OT. To be breathed out by God is no more or less authoritative than what was written on tablets by the hand of God.

You say, 'The Law of Moses is that which was "done away". The Ten Commandments cannot be "done away"'. Not so, Ma'am! Try reading Ex 20:8-10 (ESV) - the Sabbath Day commandment. Do you worship on the Jewish 7th day Sabbath? See: 'No Sabbath-worship for Christians'. I know Seventh-Day Adventists and Seventh-Day Baptists disagree, but I've attempted to address those issues in my article.

You comment about 'Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties? Now, that sounds interesting....'

I have and recommend 3 publications that deal with an extensive range of Bible difficulties. They are:

• Gleason L Archer 1982. Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Regency Reference Library (Zondervan Publishing House).
• Norman Geisler & Thomas Howe 1992. When Critics Ask: A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books.
• Walter C. Kaiser Jr., Peter H. Davids, F. F. Bruce & Manfred T. Brauch 1996. Hard Sayings of the Bible. Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press.

There may be later editions of these works. These editions are the ones I have in my library.

There is an earlier work from the 19th century that was a pattern for these later and more comprehensive volumes. That is John W Haley n d. An Examination of Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible. Pittsburgh: Whitaker House. Its whole text is available online HERE.

Your view on the authority of the first 5 books of the Bible, the Pentateuch, sounds wishy-washy to me with a fair bit of The Barrd's poetic license thrown in. That's dangerous when it comes to dealing with the inspiration of Scripture - all of Scripture.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

2 Peter 2:1-3 (ESV)
False Prophets and Teachers
2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Hmmmmm.......

If I were you, I'd turn that television off.

 

[Born_Again]

If I were you, I'd turn that television off.

Barrd,

There are a lot of TV evangelist with much more sound theology than yours. But yes, there are some that are way off their rocker.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

You have seen what The Barrd does with scripture...and as I recall, you thought I was quite good at it.

But for those who have not seen, here is a later piece:

​

Teach me Lord, and guide my way
I love you more each passing day.

Guide me lord, you are my heart
To me Your love You do impart

When it is difficult to cope
You are my strength, You are my hope.

You help me up if I should fall
You are my guide, You are my all

Teach me Lord, and guide my way
I love you more each passing day.​

A simple little piece, to be sure, but quite good, I think. It was sort of whipped out in a hurry for a friend's birthday, actually...

Now, let me whisper in your ear, Oz...
In my own "jaded" opinion, I'm not that smart. There is absolutely no way I could write the way that I do, if God was not with me. The way I see it, I must be doing something right.

As far as me being out on a limb all by myself...well, that puts me in pretty good company, doesn't it? Maybe I'm not "always right" like so many on this board. I make mistakes. Sometimes i stumble over my own tongue.

But I'm not always wrong, either, Oz...even if 99% of the folks on this board don't believe a word I say. I do recall having read something somewhere about a narrow road with just a few travelers...as opposed to a broad, well traveled highway.
I think I'll stick to my lonely wilderness road...

Just because my "exegesis" doesn't agree with everyone else's doesn't automatically mean that I'm wrong and everyone else is right...now does it?

The Barrd,

That's a red herring logical fallacy because you didn't deal with the issues I raised with you re your eisegesis and views on the authority of Scripture.

Giving me poetry is not dealing with what I wrote.

My delightful wife has just called for breakfast. I better be an obedient husband.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

Assuming that I have been a faithful wife to this jerk, I would not be in danger of the death penalty, unless he accuses me falsely.
In other words, the thing I need protection from the most is this son of a jackal that my dear father sold me to.

You know the old saying about assuming aye Barrd? The whole issue is about protecting both the wife and husband from the negative repercussions of doing just that. The more you equivocate about this, the greater you expose your misandry.

 

[StanJ]

Just because my "exegesis" doesn't agree with everyone else's doesn't automatically mean that I'm wrong and everyone else is right...now does it?

If it WERE exegesis, you would agree with the majority here. Guess you still haven't figured out the difference between exegesis and eisegesis?
But to answer your question, you ARE wrong.

 

[mjrhealth]

I doubt Jesus ever used words like exegis, but than He had nothing to prove, humble is the word I believe.

Mar 9:34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
Mar 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

 

[Barrd]

You know the old saying about assuming aye Barrd? The whole issue is about protecting both the wife and husband from the negative repercussions of doing just that. The more you equivocate about this, the greater you expose your misandry.

What the woman needs protection from is her husband's jealousy.

My "misandry"? Oh, now that is rich, that is!
I have admitted to being a "feminist"....that is, I think the sexes ought to be truly equal, in every way.
I have four beautiful, intelligent daughters and three...no, make that six...gorgeous, intelligent grand daughters, who deserve every chance. I know how hard I had to struggle, and I am determined that they will not go through a similar experience.
I also have three handsome, intelligent sons, and seven handsome, intelligent grandsons. I don't want my boys to have to take a back seat, either.
In other words, I don't want to see either sex "lording it over" the other. I want my children's and grandchildren's marriages to be happy...I don't want anyone to think that they have to "submit" to anyone else, nor do I want anyone to think that they have to be "dominant".

Back in the day, what was being "protected" was not the woman...it was the bloodline. I think we all know that. While men, it seems, were encouraged to spread their seed as widely as possible...multiple wives, concubines, harlots, etc...women were to remain sexually faithful to just one man, and bear his children, and his alone.
The "jealousy" turns out to be a dread of leaving his inheritance to another man's child.

Having worked in a law office that dealt with wills and trusts, I can tell you, this is a major concern to this day. Want to see the really ugly side of people? Watch 'em when there is a death in the family...I've seen and heard things, sitting across from the grieving family, that would make even an old goat like you sick to think about.

But that's another story for another day...

 

[Barrd]

I doubt Jesus ever used words like exegis, but than He had nothing to prove, humble is the word I believe.

Mar 9:34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
Mar 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Thank you, Mjr.
I appreciate your support.

 

[mjrhealth]

I support what is right, seems im ignored a lot. Guess im treading on some toes.