Headship, Submission and Women in Ministry

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

There is not any such phrase in the Bible that OT or NT writers write 'under the auspices of God'. That prepositional phrase is nowhere to be found in the Bible, in my understanding. This we do know that Scripture uses statements such as 'breathed out by God' (2 Tim 3:16 ESV), 'by inspiration of God' (2 Tim 3:16 KJV), or 'men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit' (2 Peter 1:21 ESV).

So which of these meanings do you indicate when you use 'auspices of God'? The Merriam-Webster Dictionary gives these options:

So does the Bible come under the 'kindly patronage and guidance' of God (auspices in plural)? I suggest you use the language of the Bible to describe its own authority, rather than The Barrd's own poetic invention.

Alright. Moses wrote under the inspiration of God, then, if that pleases you better. Not a whole lot of difference, but let's not argue over semantics.
The point is what you said earlier. God did not dictate to Moses.

You say, 'When you read the four gospels, for instance, each man is telling essentially the same story...but from a different pov'. It doesn't seem as though you have read the Gospel of John lately to make that kind of statement.

To be quite honest, I'm up to my eyebrows in Deborah right now. There's not much information outside of the little bit in Judges about her...looks as if, if I'm going to do her story, I'll have to rely on my own creativity. Of course, I always put a disclaimer "this is a work of fiction and does not pretend, in any way, to be anything else" both in the front matter and also in an Author's Afterword in every book I release.

Because God wrote the 10 commandments on tablets of stone, does not mean that the rest of the Pentateuch is not theopneustos (breathed out by God, as in 2 Tim 3:16). Since the rest of the law was written by the hand of Moses does not make them any less authoritative than what God wrote on tablets of stone. Why? Because 'all Scripture' is breathed out by God, and in 2 Tim 3:16 this was particularly referring to the OT. To be breathed out by God is no more or less authoritative than what was written on tablets by the hand of God.

I'm afraid I disagree here, Oz.

You say, 'The Law of Moses is that which was "done away". The Ten Commandments cannot be "done away"'. Not so, Ma'am! Try reading Ex 20:8-10 (ESV) - the Sabbath Day commandment. Do you worship on the Jewish 7th day Sabbath? See: 'No Sabbath-worship for Christians'. I know Seventh-Day Adventists and Seventh-Day Baptists disagree, but I've attempted to address those issues in my article.

For you, Oz, I will go to a different version than my own beloved King James...

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

I don't see a word there about worship, do you? It talks about not doing any work, and not having anyone else do any work for you, and tells us how God blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy....but there is nothing in this commandment, which was written by God Himself, Personally, about worship.

You comment about 'Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties? Now, that sounds interesting....'

I have and recommend 3 publications that deal with an extensive range of Bible difficulties. They are:

• Gleason L Archer 1982. Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Regency Reference Library (Zondervan Publishing House).
• Norman Geisler & Thomas Howe 1992. When Critics Ask: A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books.
• Walter C. Kaiser Jr., Peter H. Davids, F. F. Bruce & Manfred T. Brauch 1996. Hard Sayings of the Bible. Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press.

There may be later editions of these works. These editions are the ones I have in my library.

So, you have not one, but three such books in your library. :unsure:
In other words, you admit that there are parts of the Bible that might be...ummm....difficult? :unsure: :huh: :unsure: :unsure:
Hooodathunk.... :wacko:

There is an earlier work from the 19th century that was a pattern for these later and more comprehensive volumes. That is John W Haley n d. An Examination of Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible. Pittsburgh: Whitaker House. Its whole text is available online HERE.

I'll give that a look in a bit. I have to admit, I'm interested...

Your view on the authority of the first 5 books of the Bible, the Pentateuch, sounds wishy-washy to me with a fair bit of The Barrd's poetic license thrown in. That's dangerous when it comes to dealing with the inspiration of Scripture - all of Scripture.

You ought to have figured out by now, Oz...The Barrd looks at everything through her poet's eyes...
I can no more help it than I can help breathing...


Oz

 

[StanJ]

What the woman needs protection from is her husband's jealousy.

My "misandry"? Oh, now that is rich, that is!
I have admitted to being a "feminist"....that is, I think the sexes ought to be truly equal, in every way.
I have four beautiful, intelligent daughters and three...no, make that six...gorgeous, intelligent grand daughters, who deserve every chance. I know how hard I had to struggle, and I am determined that they will not go through a similar experience.
I also have three handsome, intelligent sons, and seven handsome, intelligent grandsons. I don't want my boys to have to take a back seat, either.
In other words, I don't want to see either sex "lording it over" the other. I want my children's and grandchildren's marriages to be happy...I don't want anyone to think that they have to "submit" to anyone else, nor do I want anyone to think that they have to be "dominant".

Back in the day, what was being "protected" was not the woman...it was the bloodline. I think we all know that. While men, it seems, were encouraged to spread their seed as widely as possible...multiple wives, concubines, harlots, etc...women were to remain sexually faithful to just one man, and bear his children, and his alone.
The "jealousy" turns out to be a dread of leaving his inheritance to another man's child.

Having worked in a law office that dealt with wills and trusts, I can tell you, this is a major concern to this day. Want to see the really ugly side of people? Watch 'em when there is a death in the family...I've seen and heard things, sitting across from the grieving family, that would make even an old goat like you sick to think about.

But that's another story for another day...

More assumptions and deflection Barrd.
Your family's status has nothing to do with your comments here, but as usual you deflect to irrelevant flotsam. Your vernacular here conveys your sentiments, but it seems only you don't see it?

 

[OzSpen]

I doubt Jesus ever used words like exegis, but than He had nothing to prove, humble is the word I believe.

Mar 9:34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
Mar 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

mjr,

Jesus also didn't give give me lessons in Greek grammar so that I can translate the NT from Greek to English. So is learning Greek grammar legitimate or not.

Jesus didn't provide us with an exposition of the Trinity, calling it the Trinity.

Your argument that Jesus didn't use the word, exegesis, is a red herring. Jesus practised exegesis because he got the meaning from out of the text of Scripture and did not impose some foreign interpretation on Scripture.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The Barrd,

The Barrd looks at everything through her poet's eyes... I can no more help it than I can help breathing.

The Barrd needs to look at Scripture the way she looks at the local newspaper - through exegetical eyes and reading grammar in context. If it's poetry, you interpret as poetry with lots of imagery. If it's narrative, interpret as literal meaning with normal grammar and cultural understanding.

You can help it The Barrd. To plead, 'I can no more help it', sounds too much like the alcoholic.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I support what is right, seems im ignored a lot. Guess im treading on some toes.

Do you want me to exegete the meaning you stated here, or do you want me to superimpose my own meaning and make it eisegesis?

 

[Barrd]

Do you want me to exegete the meaning you stated here, or do you want me to superimpose my own meaning and make it eisegesis?

He's right, though, Oz.
He's been making his little observations all through the thread.
It wasn't until I thanked him for his support that you noticed him.

And the truth is, I don't usually pay him much attention, either. Mj is...well, he's just Mj, that's all.

 

[Born_Again]

I'm going to burn up all my daily "Likes" on Oz's posts. HAHAHA

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,


The Barrd needs to look at Scripture the way she looks at the local newspaper - through exegetical eyes and reading grammar in context. If it's poetry, you interpret as poetry with lots of imagery. If it's narrative, interpret as literal meaning with normal grammar and cultural understanding.

You can help it The Barrd. To plead, 'I can no more help it', sounds too much like the alcoholic.

Oz

When I look at the local newspaper, I see stories. When I watch the news on television, I see stories. There is poetry even in the weather report.
It's all around us, Oz...and it is beautiful...

Perhaps I am like an alcoholic, then...addicted to the beauty of God's Creation....

 

[Barrd]

I'm going to burn up all my daily "Likes" on Oz's posts. HAHAHA

I wasn't aware there was a quota.
I don't really pay that much attention to such things. This isn't a popularity contest....or is it?

 

[Born_Again]

When I look at the local newspaper, I see stories. When I watch the news on television, I see stories. There is poetry even in the weather report.
It's all around us, Oz...and it is beautiful...

Perhaps I am like an alcoholic, then...addicted to the beauty of God's Creation....

Wow, that did not help your case any. Like, at all.

 

[Born_Again]

I wasn't aware there was a quota.
I don't really pay that much attention to such things. This isn't a popularity contest....or is it?

Its not a quota, you can only give so many out in a day. The site only allows so many.

 

[StanJ]

He's right, though, Oz.
He's been making his little observations all through the thread.
It wasn't until I thanked him for his support that you noticed him.
And the truth is, I don't usually pay him much attention, either. Mj is...well, he's just Mj, that's all.

He's not right, but those of us who do have him on ignore, actually ignore him.

 

[StanJ]

Its not a quota, you can only give so many out in a day. The site only allows so many.

Explanations won't help BA.

 

[Born_Again]

Explanations won't help BA.

Yea, I know. I thought I'd give it a shot, you know, hope for the best?

 

[Jun2u]

This matter of “submission” and “usurping of authority” is not understood by many professing Christians. I mean, for instance, if there was a matter or command coming out from God or Paul, who would these Christians believe? Exactly…they will believe God without question but sadly NEVER in practice! They will always quote and say “Paul said this” or “Peter said that“, instead of saying, “God said this in the Book of Romans” or “God said that in the Book of 1 Peter”. I believe these are so because we have a fear that whatever truths we find/read in scriptures must be “believed”, “accepted” and “obeyed“, even if our beliefs differ from the passages we just read. Like the subject matter of this OP.

The Bible states that holy men of old spoke as God the Holy Spirit moved them. Moses was commanded by God to write the things God had told him and put in a book (Ex 17:14; 24:7; 32:32-33), the same with Jeremiah in (Jer36:1-4), and likewise, with Paul in (1 Co 14: 37) where Paul said that ALL that he wrote was commanded and given to him by the Lord, and it would have been true also for Peter, John, and the Old and New Testament writers. These written words then became the Bible but not many Christians understand God is the Author of the Bible, for had we known this there would only have been one denomination and one belief system in the world because it will be mandatory for us to “accept“, “believe”, and “obey” the written Word. But man as a sinner is desperately wicked and will never turn to Scripture unless God intervenes in his life.

One other matter, every letter, every word, every phrase, and every thought God wanted to convey in the original manuscripts was written by Him, therefore; He is the only entity who is qualified to define the contents contained in the Bible alone and in its entirety. Does God require of us to have a knowledge of Hebrew and Greek to understand Scripture? No, that’s the reason we have concordances and the principles God laid out in 2 Timothy 3:16 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 which are essential to understanding the deeper meaning of difficult passages.

There is really nothing mysterious concerning “women to keep silence in the churches” or “to usurp authority over man”. IMO God has in view His Devine economy a “chain of command” as you will, found in 1 Co 11:3.

Concerning “women not to usurp authority over a man ”…1 Tim 2:11-14. I believe this is teaching that women are NOT to teach where “saved men” are present as in a church environment or in any form of gathering of the saints where saved men are present. Surely she can teach the Gospel to unsaved man and to children in any environment. If this is not true then the Great Commission is only given to man believers. In fact, Joel prophesied that in the last days God will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh Acts 2:17-18. The prove is that on Pentecost 3,000 were saved as the church continued to grow to this day.

I would like to turn to another matter. Today is Super Bowl day and some of you have been discussing this event since the playoffs. I’m amazed and flabbergasted how some of you in these forums and on this thread openly teach others how to deliberately sin. You know who you are! Normally, I don’t point out sin in others as I too am a sinner. However, I must act like Paul who remonstrated Peter in the Book of Acts.

In the Old Testament, the Jews were commanded to cease from work on the Saturday Sabbath, if not they were stoned to death. In the New Testament, the Sunday Sabbath is the Lord’s Day and it is a day of work. That is, this is the day that the Lord has made. It is a worship day. It is a time to read and study the Bible, a day to write letters to family members and friends about the Gospel …etc...etc…etc…Isa 58:13-14.

Isa 58:13-14 can be shown to be the Sunday Sabbath.

To make an innocent mistake is forgivable but to deliberately show others how to sin…I don’t know? I suppose your credibility is marred and will now be suspect.

To God Be The Glory

 

[OzSpen]

The Barrd,

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy [Ex 20:8-11].

I don't see a word there about worship, do you? It talks about not doing any work, and not having anyone else do any work for you, and tells us how God blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy....but there is nothing in this commandment, which was written by God Himself, Personally, about worship.

Not a word about worship???

What does it mean to 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy'? Do you know the meaning of 'holy'?

 

[OzSpen]

Jun2u,

Does God require of us to have a knowledge of Hebrew and Greek to understand Scripture? No, that’s the reason we have concordances and the principles God laid out in 2 Timothy 3:16 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 which are essential to understanding the deeper meaning of difficult passages.

How would you ever have an English translation of the OT and NT without some with the knowledge of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek?

You will never understand the grammar of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek by knowing the content of concordances, etc. Concordances are helpful, but to understand grammar for translation requires a much more comprehensive knowledge of the grammar of the original languages than concordances will give.

You are putting down those whom you need to make the original languages intelligible in the many languages of today.

As for the 'deeper meaning of difficult passages', why is a knowledge of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek grammar inadequate for God to use?

Oz

 

[mjrhealth]

Actually Ozpen, Jesus walked in teh Spirit, something it took the apostles a while to do. Jesus even when he was young suprised teh Pharisses with His wsidom, well i am not suprised it was Godly not mens wisdom. You seek not after God but your own wisdom, How can you seek teh things to be true if God hasnt told you what they are. Is ok your not alone. I wonder how long the ignore list is...

 

[Jun2u]

Oz

I’m sorry I didn’t make myself clear. What I meant was is not the English translation or any foreign translation in the reader’s native tongue sufficient enough to understand scriptures without the knowledge of Hebrew or Greek?

Most definitely I commend the translators for their work.

To God Be The Glory

 

[mjrhealth]

scriptures without the knowledge of Hebrew or Greek?

You need God, nothing else will do.