Hebrews 10:26-31

[Tong2020]

"First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean." Matthew 23:26​

You're not really changing on the inside if you're not changing on the outside. Ultimately, you can't separate the two as you are trying to do.

Does not change what Peter said ~ growing in the Spirit (2 Peter 1:5-10)

7Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil... 1 John 3:7-8

Don't throw away John's words just because you know of an atheist that's more kind to the poor than most Christians. You need to broaden your view of what righteous works looks like in a person's life. It includes the manifestations of all of the fruit of the Spirit, not just kindness or mercy, for example. Being righteous as He is righteous also means being a patient person, a forgiving person, a faithful person, a gentle person, a self controlled person. Works of righteousness, all of which are visible to the naked eye.

These unbelievers who can be generous in times of need are the same soulless creeps who can otherwise be so greedy, and hateful, and immoral as a matter of lifestyle. They do not lead lives of righteousness just because they give to charity. The righteous life includes a lot more than that. And, you'll notice in scripture that the love Christians have is especially noteworthy in regard to the people of God. Unbelievers are not very sympathetic and loving to the church, that's for sure.

Not throwing away any scriptures sir.

Nothing you said there refutes the fact that people, both Christian and non-Christian, does works which appears good and righteous. Yet we know that not all of them could have been born of the Spirit. So then, it could not be by works nor by doing works.

And as I said, looking at works and the man (oneself) is an old covenant mind. Looking at the Spirit and Jesus Christ is the new covenant mind. But perhaps you don’t understand what I mean by that.

Tong
R1630

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Then my contentions will go unanswered by you....and I will win the argument by default.

The only thing you are going to win in here is “ The Booby Prize”...... you think that I am stupid enough to take you transparent Bait?

 

[Tong2020]

This shows me this has indeed been a breakdown in communication due to language differences.

Our righteous works give us the assurance that we have already obtained salvation. This has nothing to do with righteous works somehow securing salvation. Works provide the evidence that we are already saved and, therefore, ready to meet Christ when he comes back.

Ignoring the excuse....

And I am telling you that it’s not works that gives the Christian the assurance that he had already obtained salvation, and that it is the word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit in him who does.

<<<Works provide the evidence that we are already saved>>>

Since you refer to Hebrews 6:10-11, I pointed out that it is a mistake to use Hebrews 6:10-11 to support the idea that believers should look to their works as evidence of their election. For verse 11 simply does not say that.

If there is any better evidence that one is saved and is born of the Spirit, it is not works. I have already explained why in my post#1089.

Tong
R1631

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ignoring the excuse....

And I am telling you that it’s not works that gives the Christian the assurance that he had already obtained salvation, and that it is the word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit in him who does.

<<<Works provide the evidence that we are already saved>>>

Since you refer to Hebrews 6:10-11, I pointed out that it is a mistake to use Hebrews 6:10-11 to support the idea that believers should look to their works as evidence of their election. For verse 11 simply does not say that.

If there is any better evidence that one is saved and is born of the Spirit, it is not works. I have already explained why in my post#1089.

Tong
R1631

Acting like Jesus in this world is how we know we are saved and ready to stand before Jesus on the day of judgment.....

...whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him. 1 John 4:16-17
​

See it? Whoever lives in love is in God and God is in him (the do-good unbeliever does not live in love). That's how love is perfected in us—by God being in us. And that is so we may have confidence on the day of judgment, because we act like Jesus in this world.

And we know that John is talking about active, outward love, not just inner spiritual change, by this......

18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth... 1 John 3:18-19
​

Love being outward "in action and in truth" is how we know that we belong to the truth. So, as you can see, this is all spelled out very plainly for us in the Bible. If this is convicting to any one of us, what we need to do is start acting on the spiritual impulses inside of us in obedience to God and not suppress them. Or, get saved if we don't have the spirit in us provoking and motivating us to act righteously. What we are not to do is change the Bible so it doesn't mean we know we are saved by our outward, sincere Christlike actions.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Acting like Jesus in this world is how we know we are saved and ready to stand before Jesus on the day of judgment.....

...whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him. 1 John 4:16-17
​

See it? Whoever lives in love is in God and God is in him (the do-good unbeliever does not live in love). That's how love is perfected in us—by God being in us. And that is so we may have confidence on the day of judgment, because we act like Jesus in this world.

And we know that John is talking about active, outward love, not just inner spiritual change, by this......

18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth... 1 John 3:18-19
​

Love being outward "in action and in truth" is how we know that we belong to the truth. So, as you can see, this is all spelled out very plainly for us in the Bible. If this is convicting to any one of us, what we need to do is start acting on the spiritual impulses inside of us in obedience to God and not suppress them. Or, get saved if we don't have the spirit in us provoking and motivating us to act righteously. What we are not to do is change the Bible so it doesn't mean we know we are saved by our outward, sincere Christlike actions.

The Latest Word...the Latest Instructions are for Believers to “Follow Paul, as he follows Christ....”

 

[justbyfaith]

Any boasting in one’s work and person is never pleasing to God. So one must not get compelled.

I disagree. There is boasting in the Lord, that my life and the change that has been wrought in it is because of the Lord.

Jer 9:23, Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
Jer 9:24, But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Besides, the Christian testify of the truth by showing and telling them what scriptures say the truth is. Yes, he (life and works) too can be another form of testimony to them. The former testimony being in words and the latter being in works. Words are spoken, works are not. Words are understood by what is spoken and works are understood by what action is done. In both cases, there is no boasting and there should be no boasting. For what does the Christian have that he did not received? Also, the Christian must realize that it is the Holy Spirit who enables one to see the truth, not the Christian. So, the Christian should not make the mistake of thinking that he can do that and act as though he can. That by itself is boasting.

Of course, the thing that we boast of is something that we have received and therefore the boasting that we do is in the work of the Lord.

One should take passages in scriptures in the right and proper contexts and not beyond what message they were out to say.

John 3:16 does not speak anything about one ceasing to believe.

Regarding Luke 8:13, Jesus was not saying anything about the matter of continuing to have salvation. That is out of the point of the parable.

So, let me get this straight... you are saying that your position is that if someone falls away, they continue to have salvation?

Please state your belief on this issue.

Who declared the believer as righteous? Who makes him righteous? Jesus Christ.

Tong
R1620

No really? I didn't know that...thanks for that revelation!

You have stated the obvious...that Jesus is the one who makes us righteous is a given and should have been assumed to be my position on the matter.

Does a man have to go into lengthy posts to make sure that no one misunderstands him?

I think that previous posts should be understood and taken to be a part of what a man believes.

"working out our salvation" is not us working to keep it, or working to evolve it..

To "work out" your salvation is like working out a math problem, so that Philippians 2:12 can be reiterated by 2 Peter 1:10...these verses are saying pretty much the same thing.

IF you have sin, then you are not saved.
IF you have sin then Jesus has not died for it yet.
So, you need to get that resolved., don't you?

Try to understand that God will not let you become "ONE" with Him, if you have sin.

Try to understand this, at some point, and go from there.

If you say that you have no sin, you are deceiving yourself and the truth is not in you (1 John 1:8)....and therefore you are not saved.

As for me, even though I acknowledge that I have indwelling sin, this does not mean that I am a worker of iniquity. For the element of sin is rendered dead within me (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8), so that it no longer has any say over my behaviour (Romans 6:14).

The only thing you are going to win in here is “ The Boobey Prize”...... you think that I am stupid enough to take you transparent Bait?

Obviously, if you take the bait and engage with me, your arguments will be defeated. Which is the very reason why you refrain.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Obviously, if you take the bait and engage with me, your arguments will be defeated. Which is the very reason why you refrain.


Yes, justbyfaithplusluckyrepentance .... I must admit that you are on to my Ways—- you have been “ defeating” me since “ Day One” ( in your head! ) Hahahahahahahaha.......

 

[justbyfaith]

Obviously, if you take the bait and engage with me, your arguments will be defeated. Which is the very reason why you refrain.


Yes, justbyfaithplusluckyrepentance .... I must admit that you are on to my Ways—- you have been “ defeating” me since “ Day One” ( in your head! ) Hahahahahahahaha.......

(If that is the case, then engage with me and contend for your pov)

Actually, it is only in your head that any of what you say holds water as it is opposed to what I am saying; that repentance is necessary for salvation. I think that I have shown clearly that this is the case and you have not been able to refute my scriptural reasons for believing this.

But if what I am saying is false, you should be able to show that it is false; instead you have leveled empty threats against me, saying that I am preaching a false and perverted gospel and that according to Galatians 1:6-9 I am accursed because of it.

Well, if I am accursed, then John the Baptist and Ezekiel are also accursed and you will not be seeing them in heaven.

How funny that you, who teach grace as a license for immorality, will be in heaven; while Ezekiel and John the Baptist, who were preachers of righteousness, will be found outside of the kingdom!

 

[Tong2020]

Acting like Jesus in this world is how we know we are saved and ready to stand before Jesus on the day of judgment.....

...whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him. 1 John 4:16-17
​

See it? Whoever lives in love is in God and God is in him (the do-good unbeliever does not live in love). That's how love is perfected in us—by God being in us. And that is so we may have confidence on the day of judgment, because we act like Jesus in this world.

And we know that John is talking about active, outward love, not just inner spiritual change, by this......

18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth... 1 John 3:18-19
​

Love being outward "in action and in truth" is how we know that we belong to the truth. So, as you can see, this is all spelled out very plainly for us in the Bible. If this is convicting to any one of us, what we need to do is start acting on the spiritual impulses inside of us in obedience to God and not suppress them. Or, get saved if we don't have the spirit in us provoking and motivating us to act righteously. What we are not to do is change the Bible so it doesn't mean we know we are saved by our outward, sincere Christlike actions.

You said “You do works to confirm your calling and election,” which is coming from your reading of 1 Peter 2. That is the issue I was addressing. For which I have shown that what Peter was saying relative to that it is growing in the Spirit or Spiritual growth is that which makes one’s calling and election sure or confirms it.

So, unless you are putting up another point of discussion, I would say that the scriptures you quoted does not speak about confirming one’s calling and election, unlike in 2 Peter 1.

Tong
R1637

 

[Tong2020]

I disagree. There is boasting in the Lord, that my life and the change that has been wrought in it is because of the Lord.

Jer 9:23, Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
Jer 9:24, But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

I don’t know why you disagreed with my statement “Any boasting in one’s work and person is never pleasing to God.”

But yes, there is boasting in the Lord. And that is different from boasting in one’s work and person or boasting in one’s self.

Of course, the thing that we boast of is something that we have received and therefore the boasting that we do is in the work of the Lord.

Well, not all do. Some forgets about that and so begins to boast in himself, his works.

Tong2020 said: ↑
One should take passages in scriptures in the right and proper contexts and not beyond what message they were out to say.

John 3:16 does not speak anything about one ceasing to believe.

Regarding Luke 8:13, Jesus was not saying anything about the matter of continuing to have salvation. That is out of the point of the parable.

So, let me get this straight... you are saying that your position is that if someone falls away, they continue to have salvation?

Please state your belief on this issue.

What I was just saying in what I posted is that we should take passages in scriptures in the right and proper contexts and not beyond what message they were out to say.

Anyway, let me get to your request.

It is not my position that if someone falls away, that is, reject Christ or the gospel, that he continue to have salvation. My position is that if someone (one who calls himself a Christian) reject Christ or the gospel, he is shown to be not a genuine Christian. As such, the matter of him continuing to have salvation is really of no basis or senseless. My position is that no genuine Christian would later reject Christ or the Gospel.

No really? I didn't know that...thanks for that revelation!

You have stated the obvious...that Jesus is the one who makes us righteous is a given and should have been assumed to be my position on the matter.

Does a man have to go into lengthy posts to make sure that no one misunderstands him?

I think that previous posts should be understood and taken to be a part of what a man believes.

There are those who have the mind that while they are justified by Christ, they are the one’s who make themselves to be righteous by doing good and righteous works. The intention of my post was to point out to them that it is Jesus who justifies and it is Jesus who makes them righteous.

To "work out" your salvation is like working out a math problem, so that Philippians 2:12 can be reiterated by 2 Peter 1:10...these verses are saying pretty much the same thing.

My take on that differs. Also, I don’t find Phil 2:12 and 2 Peter 1:10 as saying the same thing.

Phil. 2:12 says “work out your own salvation”. It’s not like one have something to sort out to solve as in a math problem concerning their salvation. I understand “work out your own salvation” as meaning to perform or carry out their own salvation. That is not to say that they are being told to work to save themselves nor to work their way to save themselves. But that they are to perform and carry out what salvation God works in them.

Tong
R1638

 

[HisLife]

(If that is the case, then engage with me and contend for your pov)

Actually, it is only in your head that any of what you say holds water as it is opposed to what I am saying; that repentance is necessary for salvation. I think that I have shown clearly that this is the case and you have not been able to refute my scriptural reasons for believing this.

hahaha you don't know fantasy from reality how could anyone agree with what your saying, He has and Its the same situation I find, You completely ignore the facts, How many times has he said repentance is necessary and then defines repentance and you completely ignore it, and you say repentance means turn from your sins, which isn't a term found in the bible when it comes to been saved, God repented God Didn't sin, If God repented it doesn't mean stop or turn from sin does it... so your wrong case closed, Listen and Learn from BB Humble yourself now you know your wrong and realize BB doesn't say anything that contradicts the bible from what I have seen in over 2 years, then you can thank me later, your welcome

 

[mailmandan]

hahaha you don't know fantasy from reality how could anyone agree with what your saying, He has and Its the same situation I find, You completely ignore the facts...

That is typical of spiritual narcissists who are not really interested in facts or listening to what the other person has to say, but are only looking for their next opportunity to speak.

 

[Behold]

I disagree. There is boasting in the Lord, that my life and the change that has been wrought in it is because of the Lord.

While you are writing theological junk by the pound, telling us that if we have a desire to sin, we are not born again, = you sin and confess........as you have admitted more then once.
So, really, justbyfaith.
I think you should be real quiet, for a while, until you see yourself, and resolve your own self deception.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You said “You do works to confirm your calling and election,” which is coming from your reading of 1 Peter 2. That is the issue I was addressing. For which I have shown that what Peter was saying relative to that it is growing in the Spirit or Spiritual growth is that which makes one’s calling and election sure or confirms it.

What is it about 'do these things' that you don't understand?

10Therefore, my brothers and sisters, a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:10-11​

'Doing' the qualities of the Spirit confirms that you are called and elected. When you 'do' kindness, and 'do' gentleness, and 'do' perseverance, and 'do' godliness, and 'do' love, you are putting feet on your faith, and so you show that you have the Holy Spirit in you and that you really are called and elected and have the hope of salvation.

The faith that leaves no footprints is what James calls 'dead faith'. Which, ultimately, is no faith. It's a fake, head knowledge, lip service faith that can not save you. Christians need to purposely seek to 'do' the qualities of the Spirit so they can have the assurance that they really are saved and ready to stand before Christ when he comes back. If they find they can't produce the 'do these things' part of saving faith they can seek a genuine salvation through faith in Christ and be saved when Jesus comes back.

Christ is very much interested in saving us when he comes back, not condemning us. That's why he's warned us about all this and told us how we can know for sure that we are ready to meet him in judgment. This ridiculous 'do nothing' faith of the church today is not that way.

 

[Behold]

'Doing' the qualities of the Spirit confirms that you are called and elected.

Hell is filled to the rooftop with "doers" who "cast out devils" in Jesus's Name, and gave their life to ALL the "deeds" that Legalists are always trying to pretend is how you prove you are trying to save yourself.

Here is the Final answer..
If you are not born again, you do not go to heaven.
If you are born again, is WHY you will go to heaven, and there is NO other reason.
"deeds", need not apply to the Grace of God.
Not ever.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The Latest Word...the Latest Instructions are for Believers to “Follow Paul, as he follows Christ....”

Paul is not teaching anything different than what Peter, John, and James taught as they, too, followed Christ.

14 Do all things without complaining or arguments; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you [l]appear as [m]lights in the world, 16 holding firmly the word of life, so that on the day of Christ I can take pride because I did not run in vain nor labor in vain. Philippians 2:14-16​

You prove that you are a genuine child of God holding firmly to the word of life in faith by how you act. If you can't show that you are a child of God by how you act, ultimately, that means you are not a child of God. It's up to each one of us to confirm whether or not we are really saved or not. Lip service don't cut it. Every fake believer has lip service. Every fake believer thinks he is saved. We prove we are a real believer by purposely seeking to obey the Lord. If we are able to see the fruit of the Spirit in what we do that is the evidence that proves you really are saved and have the Holy Spirit inside of you.

5Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Can’t you see for yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you—unless you actually fail the test? 2 Corinthians 13:5
​

So, follow Paul as he follows Christ. Test yourself and see if you pass the test. Prove you are a child of God by what you do, not by what you think you are.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Hell is filled to the rooftop with "doers" who "cast out devils" in Jesus's Name, and gave their life to ALL the "deeds" that Legalists are always trying to pretend is how you prove you are trying to save yourself.

Here is the Final answer..
If you are not born again, you do not go to heaven.
If you are born again, is WHY you will go to heaven, and there is NO other reason.
"deeds", need not apply to the Grace of God.
Not ever.

If you are born again you will have the works to prove it.

That's not legalism.

 

[Tong2020]

What is it about 'do these things' that you don't understand?

10Therefore, my brothers and sisters, a make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:10-11​

'Doing' the qualities of the Spirit confirms that you are called and elected. When you 'do' kindness, and 'do' gentleness, and 'do' perseverance, and 'do' godliness, and 'do' love, you are putting feet on your faith, and so you show that you have the Holy Spirit in you and that you really are called and elected and have the hope of salvation.

The faith that leaves no footprints is what James calls 'dead faith'. Which, ultimately, is no faith. It's a fake, head knowledge, lip service faith that can not save you. Christians need to purposely seek to 'do' the qualities of the Spirit so they can have the assurance that they really are saved and ready to stand before Christ when he comes back. If they find they can't produce the 'do these things' part of saving faith they can seek a genuine salvation through faith in Christ and be saved when Jesus comes back.

Christ is very much interested in saving us when he comes back, not condemning us. That's why he's warned us about all this and told us how we can know for sure that we are ready to meet him in judgment. This ridiculous 'do nothing' faith of the church today is not that way.

And here we go again, back to square 1. I will not repeat myself here, but only point you to the “do these things”.

<<<'Doing' the qualities of the Spirit confirms that you are called and elected.>>>

Peter definitely is not saying anything about doing the qualities of the Spirit. That even sounds off to me. As I said, he is talking about growing in the Spirit. And He said it this way: add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

Tong
R1644

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Peter definitely is not saying anything about doing the qualities of the Spirit.

What do you mean he's not saying anything about doing the qualities of the Spirit?

8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they (these spiritual qualities) will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:8​

See what he's saying? When you add goodness to your faith it produces good behavior. When you add love to your faith it produces loving behavior. These virtues are what causes that to happen. This is all about producing actions.

We live in the age of this 'do nothing' Christianity where just thinking 'goodness', or thinking 'love' is having the righteousness of God and proves you are saved. Ultimately, if all you have are thoughts, and no actions, you don't have God in you by the Spirit.

17If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth. 1 John 3:17-18

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? James 2:14-16
​

Dead faith can not save you. But the church will argue vehemently with you that it will.

 

[Tong2020]

What do you mean he's not saying anything about doing the qualities of the Spirit?

8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they (these spiritual qualities) will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:8​

See what he's saying? When you add goodness to your faith it produces good behavior. When you add love to your faith it produces loving behavior. These virtues are what causes that to happen. This is all about producing actions.

Adding to your faith virtue is not producing action or what you call “doing the qualities of the Spirit”, rather it is growing in the Spirit. Adding love to brotherly kindness is growing in the Spirit, not “doing the qualities of the Spirit”.

Now if you go beyond that as to say Peter by that is talking about works, I won’t be with you on that. Growing in the Spirit is different from doing works.

Tong
R1646