More of the same from you.
You make the OT a black and white thing when there are many question that can be asked.
But you won't tolerate it. And anyone that disagrees with your opinion is "calling God a liar."
Does that mean you are God? - LOL
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Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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You make the OT a black and white thing when there are many question that can be asked.
But you won't tolerate it. And anyone that disagrees with your opinion is "calling God a liar."
Does that mean you are God? - LOL
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I posted about the restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah.
How is that rejecting God? I gave scriptural support.
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Yeah, defending the Christian Bible. That's why I'm here.
So ask. You have clearly rejected perfectly Biblical Scripture.
I didn't give my opinion. YOU did. I gave perfectly clear Scripture from Jesus.
No, it means I'm a Bible believing Christian. What are you? You don't seem to know what you are.
You gave opinions. I gave Scripture. See the diff? Jesus clearly confirmed the Genesis Flood and burning of Sodom. All you have done is ATTACK the Bible.
That saw cuts both ways. Why is the scripture you post "biblical" and mine isn't?
Your interpretation = your opinion
One can refer to a myth to make a point. Reference to such doesn't make it real.
Are you familiar with this? The Apostle made reference to a Hebrew myth to make his point.
Did a rock actually follow them in the wilderness? The original rolling stone. - LOL
1 Corinthians 10:4 NKJV
and all drank the same spiritual drink.
For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them,
and that Rock was Christ.
There is no consensus about what the Bible means.
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Because you are using it to ATTACK the Bible.
Moses, Amos, Lamentations, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, Jude, Paul and Jesus all confirm the Genesis Flood.
So you don't believe in Christian salvation? You clearly pick parts of the Bible you like and reject the MANY parts you don't like.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Luke chapters 14-16 are all parables. (Matt 13:34-35)
Taken literally it says that there was a rich man who dressed in fine clothing and enjoying life….does it say he was wicked?
The beggar was named Lazarus, but it was a very common name back then, so does that make the beggar righteous? They were living in very different circumstances. The rich man was perfectly capable of providing some food for this starving man, but he callously refused to even acknowledge his existence.
What about their “deaths”…..can a person die only physically? The Bible says that people alive can be “dead in their trespasses”….so the deaths of these two is entirely figurative as parables often are.
What does it mean then that the beggar was “carried off by the angels to Abraham’s bosom”?
What did a Jew understand about the “bosom” and how it was used in Bible times? It refers to the chest where the heart is.
When reclining at a meal, the one reclining next to the host was considered to be in a position of favor (close to the chest) since conversing with him throughout the meal was considered a privilege.…”the bosom position”.
A shepherd too, if a lamb was lost, would provide warmth and care for this little one in the fold of his outer garment which was said to be the “bosom” of the shepherd.
The “bosom of Abraham” was therefore a position of favor and loving care with God, since Abraham was the only man in the whole Bible called “Jehovah’s friend”…..that favored position was lost to the rich man, but gained by the beggar. How so?
The “rich man” pictured the Pharisees who relied on their lineage to “father Abraham” to maintain their status…..and the beggar pictured the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”, to whom Jesus was sent. The Pharisees viewed these “lost” ones as unworthy of their attention or care.
The rich man died and went to “hades” (not hell) so this is not about “heaven and hell” at all. “Hades” is simply “the grave”…a place to bury dead people, not torture them.
If taken literally, then “heaven and hell” are within speaking distance to one another….and those in each realm can see what is going on in the “other” place. Is that what the Bible says?
A drop of water can cool the tongue of a person being burned alive? Is that what the Bible says?
Is the blazing fire literal? No! because the Bible does not speak of an immortal soul that goes on living after death. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
The “fire” was in Jesus’ words of condemnation from his Father…the very one these men claimed to worship. Their deaths were not physical, but spiritual, and the “grave“ (hades) that they were in, was dug by themselves. Their “anguish” at being exposed as liars and hypocrites tortured them to such an extent that they plotted to kill Jesus to silence him….something they had done to God’s prophets all through their sad and sorry history. (Matt 23:37-39)
You really need to do some decent Bible study Jack…..the church has led you astray, just as it did me for the first 20 years of my life…..it wasn’t until I left the church and actually studied the Bible for myself that I realized just how far Christendom had strayed from the truths taught by Jesus….it was prophesied by Jesus himself (as well as the apostles) that the devil would create a counterfeit “church” that looks authentic but is filled with errors. You don’t spot a counterfeit by knowing what all the counterfeits look like…you just have to know what the original looks like and compare.
The Bible is like hidden treasure that requires effort to dig……and the gems just keep coming….and as understanding increases so does faith.
Blind faith is not worth anything, so if all you can do is keep quoting the same scriptures with the same flawed interpretation, nothing will change for you…..your slavery to the church and an outdated Bible will mean that when God holds the fractured “church” system of Christendom to account, all who support that satanic counterfeit, will go down with her. (Matt 7:21-23; Rev 18:4-5)
You will never be able to say that no one told you…..
The rich man died but was quite alive in the fire in torment! Parables don't use literal Biblical people. Nice try Kingdom Hall.
Oh, look what I found in the JW bible:
NWT Rev 20
And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Bible is the written Word of God. Including the Genesis Flood. Those who attack the Bible are heading for Hell fire. As Jesus warned!
Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
No it's not temporary, it's EVERLASTING! Jesus said so.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You just don’t give up, do you?
In order to be tormented one must be alive…..the physically dead “know nothing”…they cannot think, plan or do anything because they are dead. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Psalm 146:4 ; Isa 38:18; Psalm 115:17)
The spiritually “dead” OTOH, can be in a figurative “grave” (hades) walking about on planet Earth, but dead as a doornail to God. These can be tormented because they are still alive in the flesh but dead to God.
The door to your mind and heart are closed…..pity to waste that zeal. IMO, It is entirely misdirected.
Bingo! The rich man died and was quite alive in the fire!
Why are you avoiding the NT? Do you need permission from Kingdom Hall?
Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."
Same Greek Word Aunty! You don't believe in everlasting life?
"Figurative" a JW addiction when they don't like what God said!
I thank God I didn't step foot in Satan's trap at Kingdom Hall!
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
@Jack Revelation 20:13-14…..
“And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and hades gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.”
Can “death and hades” be literally thrown into this “lake of fire”?
What does the KJV say?
”And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”
Can hell be cast into hell, Jack?
What does it mean “the second death”…..please explain….
“And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and hades gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.”
Can “death and hades” be literally thrown into this “lake of fire”?
What does the KJV say?
”And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.”
Can hell be cast into hell, Jack?
What does it mean “the second death”…..please explain….
"Death" never means a person ceases to exist in the Bible!!! Why do you avoid the NWT verse I quoted?
Rev 20 NWT
And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
MANY will wish they ceased to exist!!! Hell is the worst prison ever with the most evil beings ever, with NO PAROLE!
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Why don't you stick with Scripture rather than personal attacks? I guess that all you have.
Hard to imagine anything so cruel and sadistic. But you are all for it.
What's wrong with this picture?
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Okay. Try this on for size.
Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Not avoiding it at all…I have given you the explanation but you disregard it…that is your choice.
What is the “torment” that goes on forever?
That word translated as “tormented” has as its primary definition…
- “to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal”
““And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.”
The scriptures you quote are misinterpreted and then misapplied…..the torment is figurative…..being trapped in eternal death forever is exactly what that punishment is. God has no need or desire to torture anyone forever with no way out. What is the point? Punishment for its own sake accomplishes what?
Unless you are a student of God’s word, versed in original meanings of the words as they are used in scripture, not in church doctrine, you might have something to say about the verses you misquote….
But for now, all I can say is that your ignorance is showing…..not to mention a dogged determination not to be proven wrong.
The fact that you relish the torture that you think God will dish out, and wish it on others who disagree with your version of things, is telling…..
We will let Jesus do his job…he is the judge, not you or me.…and not many are going to pass muster in the end. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) So we better be sure about what we accept as truth…..the devil is a deceiver, but you think you are somehow immune…..time will tell.
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