Help police! KJV is taking away my freedom of religion in USA reading another Bible versions!

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RLT63

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I wonder if Jesus had come to be born in our day, how many ‘hate sites’ would be publishing "facts and the real truth" about Jesus and his apostles. There would be news on the TV about how many times had they been denounced by those in religious authority.

Jesus had been publicly shamed as a false Messiah and his apostles were arrested many times after his death, demonstrating what "criminals" they were. The population were convinced, just as they are now. Propaganda works as we see every day how easily people’s opinions are swayed by a good spin on the news, or in a YouTube video, or good old hate sites.
History repeats as it always does when people do not learn that the devil has no new tricks....just new forms of delivery.

Since Jesus said that his true disciples would be “hated and persecuted” just as they were in the first century, (John 15:18-21).....I would see all that you have posted as ‘proof’ to some people that JW’s are the last people on earth who would have the truth.....but you are fulfilling prophesy, just as we are....only not in the way you imagine.

Are we perfect? Nope....were the apostles perfect? Nope.....what does that prove? Only that we are human, but we are “doing” what Jesus commanded his disciples to do, and we have completely separated from “Babylon the great” as per the instruction in Revelation 18:4-5.

A major judgment is coming and only Jesus knows who belongs to him.....he doesn’t read labels....he judges by faith and works......I will let him do the judging while we continue to call on people "in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations", with one message as one united global brotherhood, doing what Christendom has failed to do. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20) Will it matter then what translation they used?

When Christ is backing the work, it will not fail.....and no one will be able to say..."nobody told me". There was to be one testimony offered....just one.....but not everyone wants to hear it. This is the choice we all have. But as Jesus said....these last days will be “just like the days of Noah”. (Matthew 24:37-39) The people back then stumbled over the messenger too, even ridiculed him, but they saw what he did and in the end they knew he had told the truth......but too late. History will repeat and there will be no excuses accepted.

Most people will accept a comfortable lie, rather than an uncomfortable truth. The devil relies on the fact that human nature does not change.
You do the same thing these sites do when you rail against Christendom as you call it and attack the beliefs of others. Now you play the victim but most of the time you are the oppressor. Pot calling the kettle black. And yours is not the only denomination that thinks they are the only ones who have it right. One true church - Wikipedia
 
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Adventageous

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You keep telling us how corrupt the NWT is Enoch.....show us some examples
#22.

Colossians 1:2

Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

The NIV and NWT follows the same pattern:

The words do not occur in the following corrupted texts:

B (Vaticanus), D, Dabs, K, L, Psi, al, ar, d, div, e, mon, x, z, Vulgate-pt, pesh, harc, sa, Eth-rom (also see: "... B D K Psi 33 81 1739 1881 most lat earlier vg syr(p,h) cop(south) ..." - Textual Variants: Colossians 1:2-4:15 )​

Here is the vast extant literature which has the text in it:

"... Aleph (Sinaiticus), A, C, F, G, I, (P*)
Cursives: MAJORITY
Old Latin: c, (dem), f, g, Vulgate-pt
Syriac: (Harclean**)
Coptic: (Bohairic)
Armenian, Ethiopic-ppl


Also extant in P46?, 049, 056, 075, 0142, 0150, 0151 ..." - A Closer Look: Early Manuscripts & The A.V.; by Jack Moorman, pages 131

Additionally:

"... S A C G I 104 614 630 1241 2495 Byz Lect three lat later vg cop(north) ..." - Textual Variants: Colossians 1:2-4:15

Additionally:

"... Ruckman (57) Colossians p470-i, states that B and D (6th cent.) have omitted the words, which are found in all families of manuscripts and in the majority of manuscripts. Berry's Greek text supports this passage. ..." - Manuscript Evidence for Disputed Verses
 
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Adventageous

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Most people will accept a comfortable lie, rather than an uncomfortable truth.
I would be glad to hear, what the "truth" is, from 'you', if it is not found on JWFacts, as it seems pretty well documented and logical in conclusions. Are you saying that the information presented by those links is incorrect, misrepresentative, and if so, which specific parts, please. I would be glad to hear what you have to say, on the matter.

As for instance, when Johann places all those anti-SDA sites onto the forum (because he cannot of himself refute anything I have presented, and he is a coward, being unable and unwilling to defend anything he posts from those sites), which are absolutely riddled with error, misrepresentations, misquotes, and out of context material, and outright falsitifcations, I am able to document those things in opposition showing that Johann doesn't have a clue as to what Seventh-day Adventist teach, preach, practice, and actually have in print. He simply runs to someone (with a massive bias) online whom he thinks will be helpful in rebuttable and never vetts the material himself, which is one of the most unChristian things, as the Bible tells us to "prove all things", to "Search the scriptures", etc. Johann is a classic case of Prv. 18:13,17.
 
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RLT63

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I would be glad to hear, what the "truth" is, from 'you', if it is not found on JWFacts, as it seems pretty well documented and logica in conclusions. Are you saying that the information presented by those links is incorrect, misrepresentative, and if so, which specific parts, please. I would be glad to hear what you have to say, on the matter.

As for instance, when Johann places all those anti-SDA sites onto the forum (because he cannot of himself refute anything I have presented, and he is a coward, being unable and unwilling to defend anything he posts from those sites), which are absolutely riddled with error, misrepresentations, misquotes, and out of context material, and outright falsitifcations, I am able to document those things in opposition showing that Johann doesn't have a clue as to what Seventh-day Adventist teach, preach, practice, and actually have in print. He simply runs to someone (with a massive bias) online whom he thinks will be helpful in rebuttable and never vetts the material himself, which is one of the most unChristian things, as the Bible tells us to "prove all things", to "Search the scriptures", etc. Johann is a classic case of Prv. 18:13,17.
Yes I would like to know what is not accurate on those sites and this one. Chick.com: Jehovah's Witnesses -- Where Did They Come From?
 

RLT63

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I would be glad to hear, what the "truth" is, from 'you', if it is not found on JWFacts, as it seems pretty well documented and logical in conclusions. Are you saying that the information presented by those links is incorrect, misrepresentative, and if so, which specific parts, please. I would be glad to hear what you have to say, on the matter.

As for instance, when Johann places all those anti-SDA sites onto the forum (because he cannot of himself refute anything I have presented, and he is a coward, being unable and unwilling to defend anything he posts from those sites), which are absolutely riddled with error, misrepresentations, misquotes, and out of context material, and outright falsitifcations, I am able to document those things in opposition showing that Johann doesn't have a clue as to what Seventh-day Adventist teach, preach, practice, and actually have in print. He simply runs to someone (with a massive bias) online whom he thinks will be helpful in rebuttable and never vetts the material himself, which is one of the most unChristian things, as the Bible tells us to "prove all things", to "Search the scriptures", etc. Johann is a classic case of Prv. 18:13,17.
To be fair to Johann you are a very difficult person to debate. You have already researched everything that is brought up and you have more than enough information on every subject. I appreciate your defense of the KJV and the case that material should not have been omitted in the modern versions. I’m not King James Only but I think much of the material in question should not have been omitted. I don’t buy into the Alexandrian texts being superior to the Byzantine. Just because something is older does not necessarily mean that it’s better
 

Adventageous

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To be fair to Johann you are a very difficult person to debate.
Eze_3:8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

Psa_18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.

Pro_26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Pro_26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

If he would simply engage what I say, and be genuinely honest in inquiry desiring to actually learn what a Seventh-day Adventist believes and practices, instead of running off (as he does, and not addressing anything), I would be more amenable to be not so hard. However, if he is simply going to continue as he has, without learning any lesson, I will simply cut his error down.

You have already researched everything that is brought up and you have more than enough information on every subject.

That is because I need to understand everything I believe and practice from the Bible, and this includes the attacks on a certain sister (who is laid to rest in the LORD Jesus Christ, and she cannot defend herself), and show from scripture the same has been done to the messengers of the LORD before and throughout history. As Solomon said,

Ecc_1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

I would be glad to discuss any point, one at a time, with anyone who has legitimate questions. The problem with Johann, he simply goes off topic of any OP, and simply seeks to bash a religion and person, he doesn't understand. Imagine if I just did that to him, and posted nothing but websites that do not address the topic, but are not related, and simply attacks? I always engage in conversation with those who desire, even with ex-SDA, Jesuits, scholars, theologians, etc. If they refuse to 'play nice', I will still refute their whole video and website, because I can. I have taken the time to watch hundreds of hours of anti-SDA video, read thousands of pages of anti-SDA rhetoric and bitter polemic, and seen the massive amount of plagiarizing they do from one another, as all the same errors, misquotes, mis-citation, show up. That which has been refuted years before I was even born, constantly gets brought up, as if there never was an answer given in detail before by several dozen persons. They allow their bias, and incorrect a priori, and prejudice to interfere with a rational, logical, prayerful, studied (Bible) discussion. When it comes to my questions, they rarely answer, knowing the conclusion they must draw from them, and so generally ignore the question, rephrase the question, or go off topic altogther.

I do not hate Johann, and would desire him to know what I know in truth still. I just think, at present, he won't because of that which the Bible speaks of in regards cowardice. It doesn't mean I am being cruel, it means I am identifying a character flaw, that needs correcting, and if he would, as people can change, and do better, I would be glad to welcome him in a closer fellowship. However, at the moment, he is an enemy to the truth I presented in detail, simply because he chooses to be.

People often think me hard. I only harden as they harden, but it is always less hard than they are. I always allow people to try again, and Johann, and Aunty Jane are no exceptions.
 
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AlwaysOnAJourney

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I’m able to read and understand both of those versions. I think everyone should read the version of their choice and not try to tell everyone else what to do
In my case, I have publicly told people that I have a terrible trouble understanding the KJV and please don't be quoting it to me. Yet people continue to do it anyways. After a while I start to get angry at them.
 
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AlwaysOnAJourney

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It (English languages) evolves over 200 times in the last 150ish years? Why do the modern versions only ever compare themselves to the KJB?

Be careful who you read. It's the internet, all kinds of strange information floats around. Nearly impossible to know who is right and who isn't.
 

AlwaysOnAJourney

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It's not about superiortity of person over person, but that of text (true & correct) over text (error, subtractions, additions, etc).
I disagree, knowledge tends to puff up. I have always been on the bottom of nearly everything, and have witness how people crush those under them. I have always sensed a bad spirit in the KJV only crowd.
 

AlwaysOnAJourney

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#18.

1 Samuel 13:1

1 Sam 13:1 KJB - Saul reigned one year; and when he had reigned two years over Israel,​
1 Sam 13:1 HOT - בן־שׁנה שׁאול במלכו ושׁתי שׁנים מלך על־ישׂראל׃​

The Geneva, Young's Literal, The Living Bible, etc, and even Jerome's Latin Vulgate gets this right.

Yet:

NWT:

1 Sam 13:1 NWT - Saul was . . .* years old when he became king, a and for two years he reigned over Israel.​
Acts 13:21 NWT - But afterward they demanded a king,+ and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin,+ for 40 years.​

Contradiction of 2. 40.

NIV:


1 Sam 13:1 NIV [©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011] - Saul was thirty[a] years old when he became king, and he reigned over Israel forty- two years.​
Acts 13:21 NIV - Then the people asked for a king, and he gave them Saul son of Kish, of the tribe of Benjamin, who ruled forty years.​

a. 1 Sam 13:1 A few late manuscripts of the Septuagint; Hebrew does not have thirty.​
b. 1 Sam 13:1 Probable reading of the original Hebrew text (see Acts 13:21); Masoretic Text does not have forty-.​

Contradiction. 42. 40. No Hebrew for 30.

In fact the so-called LXX, LXX+ [Strong's and Robinson's Morphological Analysis codes], and Brenton's LXX, I have on E-sword does NOT list 1 Sam 13:1, it is MISSING, DELETED as in the GNT.

ESV:


1 Sam 13:1 ESV - Saul lived for one year and then became king, and when he had reigned for two years over Israel,[a]​

NASB:

1 Sam 13:1 NASB - Saul was [a]thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty two years over Israel.​
Acts 13:21 NASB - Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years.​

Contradiction. 42. 40. No Hebrew for 30.

DRA:


1 Sam 13:1 DRA - Saul was a child of one year when he began to reign, and he reigned two years over Israel.​
Acts 13:21 DRA - And after that they desired a king: and God gave them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, forty years.​

Saul was an infant as King?

NEB:


1 Sam 13:1 NEB - Saul was fifty years old when he became king, and he reigned over Israel for twenty-two years.​
Acts 13:21 NEB - Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, who reigned for forty years ...​

Contradiction. 22. 40. No Hebrew for 50.

CEV:

1 Sam 13:1 CEV [Bible Gateway] - Saul was 30 years old[a] when he became king, and he ruled over Israel forty-two years.​
1 Sam 13:1 CEV [E-Sword] Saul was a young man when he became king, and he ruled Israel for two years.​
Acts 13:21 CEV - but the people demanded a king. So for forty years God gave them King Saul, the son of Kish from the tribe of Benjamin.​
a. 1 Sam 13:1 LXXL; Syr twenty-one; MT lacks a number; 13:1 is omitted in LXXB.​
b. 1 Sam 13:1 Part of the number is missing in MT (… and two years) and all ancient witnesses. Acts 13:21 says Saul ruled forty years, as does Josephus (Ant. 6.14.9 [378]), though Josephus also says Saul ruled twenty years (Ant. 10.8.4 [143]).​

Contradiction. 42. 2. 40. No Hebrew for 30, or "young man".

MSG:


1 Sam 13:1 MSG - Saul was a young man when he began as king. He was king over Israel for many years.​

They didn't even try to attempt an accurate translation and just fudged it.

MEV:


1 Sam 13:1 MEV - Saul was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty-two years over Israel.[a]​
a. 1 Sam 13:1 Lit. “The son of a year was Saul in his ruling and two years he ruled over Israel.” Most translations read in Saul’s age and length of reign from external evidence (Josephus) or from the New Testament (Paul, who mentions a forty-year reign for Saul in Ac 13:21).​

GNT:

1 Sam 13:1 GNT - MISSING, DELETED

Treasury of Scripture Knowledge [E-Sword]:

"... reigned one year: Heb. the son of one year in his reigning, This verse is variously interpreted; but probably it only means, according to the Hebrew idiom, that, during the first year nothing remarkable occurred; but after two years (or in the second year of his reign), the subsequent events took place. Exo_12:5; Mic_6:6 *marg. ..."​
There is NO such thing as a completely accurate translation of the Bible. It's impossible. Your converting two languages over to English.
 

Adventageous

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There is NO such thing as a completely accurate translation of the Bible. It's impossible. Your converting two languages over to English.
Let's test the basic premise with a single example.

Act 26:14 KJB And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.​
Act 26:14 GNT TR παντων δε καταπεσοντων ημων εις την γην ηκουσα φωνην λαλουσαν προς με και λεγουσαν τη εβραιδι διαλεκτω σαουλ σαουλ τι με διωκεις σκληρον σοι προς κεντρα λακτιζειν​

So, Jesus spoke to Saul/Paul in Hebrew.

We have what Jesus said in koine Greek only.

Is what Jesus said perfectly translated into koine Greek from his original statement in Hebrew, as inspired of the Holy Ghost Himself (2 Tim. 3:15-17)? or do we only guess at what Jesus "originally" said because we do not have the Hebrew, and the koine Greek is simply guessing at Hebrew words?

Does Jesus know how to perfectly speak Hebrew? Does the Holy Ghost know how to perfectly inspire the translation into koine Greek so that it is what Jesus said in another language?
 

Aunty Jane

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You do the same thing these sites do when you rail against Christendom as you call it and attack the beliefs of others. Now you play the victim but most of the time you are the oppressor. Pot calling the kettle black. And yours is not the only denomination that thinks they are the only ones who have it right. One true church - Wikipedia
Not so fast there Buddy.....the difference with me is that I have been in both camps to observe first hand how it is.....what is believed and what is practiced.....have you? I attack the beliefs I used to think were the truth until I did the research and found out how wrong I was....and why nothing ever made sense to me. Now everything fits into its proper place with no dissent or arguments, because all are in solid agreement with the entirety of scripture......not just a few cherry picked verses.

It is my own experience in both that led me to what I believe today.....I had no idea how many doctrines held by Christendom, have no origin in scripture. All were adopted from pagan beliefs and practices....many of which are held in the false religions practiced around the world.
Does God copy the devil.....or is it the other way around? What does a counterfeit look like? If all you were ever taught was the counterfeit, how would you know the genuine article, even if it was right under your nose? Only God can lead us there....and only if we have in our character the qualities that he is looking for. One outstanding quality that he seeks in his human worshippers is a "love of the truth".....Jesus said we would "know the truth and the truth would set us free"...I didn't know what that meant until I found the truth.....it is truly liberating not to be shackled to a sad counterfeit that the fake 'Christians' are still vainly trying to unite.....it will never happen because Christ has to separate the "weeds" from the "wheat" when he returns as judge, he is the one who will let us know who was serving his Father's will and who was only pretending to.
God will not correct us....he allows us all to be 'caught in the act of being ourselves'. (2 Thess 2:9-12)


I would give you a list but I am not allowed to speak about such things here....
 

Adventageous

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Now everything fits into its proper place with no dissent or arguments, because all are in solid agreement with the entirety of scripture......not just a few cherry picked verses.

AWHN - Bible - Timeline - Jehovahs Witnesses Time Chart.jpg

In PADP (Pay Attention To Daniel's Prophecy), page 96, it says, "... [28] Since the "seven times" are prophetic, we must apply to the 2,520 days the Scriptural rule: "A day for a year." This rule is set out in a prophecy regarding the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem. (Ezekiel 4:6,7 compare Numbers 14:34.) ..."

In PADP (Pay Attention To Daniel's Prophecy), page 177, it says, "... The 2,300 days constitute a prophetic period. Hence, a prophetic year of 360 days is involved. (Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,14) This 2,300 days, then would amount to 6 years, 4 months and 20 days. ..."

In PADP (Pay Attention To Daniel's Prophecy), page 301, it states that the 1,260 days is from "1914 CE Dec." to "1918 CE Jun."

In PADP (Pay Attention To Daniel's Prophecy), page 301, it states that the 1,290 days is from "1919 CE Jan." to "1922 CE Sept."

In PADP (Pay Attention To Daniel's Prophecy), page 301, it states that the 1,335 days is from "1922 CE Sept." to "1926 CE May"

In PADP (Pay Attention To Daniel's Prophecy), page 177,178,179,301, it states that the 2,300 evenings/mornings is from "1938 CE Jun. 1 or 15" to "1944 CE Oct. 8 or 22".

Why does the WTS material state that in Daniel 4 the "seven times" over "Nebuchadnezzar" needs to have a day for a year applied when no such context or statement from Daniel applies the 7 years to anyone other than the singular person Nebuchadnezzar, when in Daniel 7-12, no such principle is like-wise applied by the WTS to the 1,260, 1,290, 1,335, and 2,300 when it clearly requires it?

Why does the WTS pick dates out of a hat, when it comes to the 1,260, 1,290, 1,335, and 2,300, when they are all related together because of the "daily" phrase and because of Daniel 9's "determined". The 2,300 is the larger timeframe from which the 1,260, 1,290, 1,335 and 70 weeks are all a part of.
 
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RLT63

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Not so fast there Buddy.....the difference with me is that I have been in both camps to observe first hand how it is.....what is believed and what is practiced.....have you? I attack the beliefs I used to think were the truth until I did the research and found out how wrong I was....and why nothing ever made sense to me. Now everything fits into its proper place with no dissent or arguments, because all are in solid agreement with the entirety of scripture......not just a few cherry picked verses.

It is my own experience in both that led me to what I believe today.....I had no idea how many doctrines held by Christendom, have no origin in scripture. All were adopted from pagan beliefs and practices....many of which are held in the false religions practiced around the world.
Does God copy the devil.....or is it the other way around? What does a counterfeit look like? If all you were ever taught was the counterfeit, how would you know the genuine article, even if it was right under your nose? Only God can lead us there....and only if we have in our character the qualities that he is looking for. One outstanding quality that he seeks in his human worshippers is a "love of the truth".....Jesus said we would "know the truth and the truth would set us free"...I didn't know what that meant until I found the truth.....it is truly liberating not to be shackled to a sad counterfeit that the fake 'Christians' are still vainly trying to unite.....it will never happen because Christ has to separate the "weeds" from the "wheat" when he returns as judge, he is the one who will let us know who was serving his Father's will and who was only pretending to.
God will not correct us....he allows us all to be 'caught in the act of being ourselves'. (2 Thess 2:9-12)


I would give you a list but I am not allowed to speak about such things here....
Aunty Jane said “I would give you a list but I am not allowed to speak about such things here..”. The issues brought up in the links I posted are not part of the banned topics
 

AlwaysOnAJourney

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Oh lovely. At first we were talking about the King James Only people, and now we adding in Jehovah's Witnesses. Now that complicates something that is already complicated. Personally I would not have added them to this conversation. That should be an entirely different thread. A thread for cults.
 
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